FL - 17-yo Boy Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain

[Rob774]

Btw, i just relistened to ALL of the 911 calls...
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/GR...ased/-/1637132/9450044/-/6m827cz/-/index.html
Forward to 6:00 and you can hear this poor kid beg for help, plead for his life, and then BANG... nothing. How gutless / heartless can you be to shoot a kid who's pleading for his lilfe??? He had 110 lbs on this kid, you mean to tell me this kid was getting the best of him??? I call BS to that!!!

 

[annalia]

The whole self defense claim is absurd.

Listening to the 911 calls again makes it even more outrageous.

GZ clearly had his mind made up about Trayvon when he called 911. He had his mind made up that Tray was one of those *advertiser censored*** that was about to get away again. How he was able to tell that Tray was on drugs or something when it was dark and raining is beyond comprehension.

Listening to GZ speak he sounds like he's a few fries short of a happy meal. There was a report that he sounded like he could have been intoxicated, it's hard to know unless we heard how he normally speaks but if he was no one will ever know now.

He was clearly told that they didn't need him to follow Tray and he responded ok. He CHOSE to first follow Tray in his car and then CHOSE to get out of his car, where he would have been safe, and follow him. That wasn't his right, that was a choice. That made him the aggressor.

We're all concerned about crime, that doesn't give any of us the right to become vigilantes and determine that someone that's simply walking down the street is about to commit a crime or on drugs.

He may wind up getting away with it since it was botched from the get-go. Hopefully the FBI will get involved.

JMHO

 

[HiHater]

When you have "stand your ground" law as broad as the one in FL, maybe people shouldn't be surprised at the outcome. Based on that law, yes, GZ can argue self-defense since Trayvon is dead, so no one is there to contradict GZ's version of events. Even though GZ was the one following Trayvon he claims in the end Trayvon was the one who approached GZ. And who is there to contradict that?

That's a slippery slope...the dead can't speak, ever. What contradicts GZ's claim that Trayvon approached him is GZ's 911 call. We are to believe that he was concerned about this "suspicious" person in light of recent burglaries, was following him (against advice), did not want this *advertiser censored**hole to get away, the "suspicious" person ran, GZ chased him, but yet he didn't confront him? No one could reasonably believe that. If you chase someone, you intend to catch, and therefore confront, the person.


What if Trayvon was STANDING HIS GROUND?

 

[annalia]

That still seems to me like an extraordinary amount of 911 calls in that short period of time.

IMO

And the majority of them were false alarms.

That says something right there, this wasn't the right person to be in charge of any neighborhood watch program.

JMHO

 

[Robyn623]

Btw, i just relistened to ALL of the 911 calls...
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/GR...ased/-/1637132/9450044/-/6m827cz/-/index.html
Forward to 6:00 and you can hear this poor kid beg for help, plead for his life, and then BANG... nothing. How gutless / heartless can you be to shoot a kid who's pleading for his lilfe??? He had 110 lbs on this kid, you mean to tell me this kid was getting the best of him??? I call BS to that!!!

I have stayed away from these calls because frankly I didn't know if I could handle them. I did go to this link & fast forward to this mark and I kinda wish I didn't. You can very clearly hear TM screaming for help. You can hear the terror and panic in his voice and you can hear how those screams quiet when the gun goes off. I totally agree with you, Rob...how could you hear this kid scream for his life and still pull the trigger?!! I'm so disgusted that I can hardly type.

 

[HMSHood]

Don't know if this was posted already.

Witness contradicts self-defense claim in teen's shooting
http://www.local10.com/news/Witness...teen-s-shooting/-/1717324/9359194/-/w5issk/-/

But, witness Mary Cutcher said she heard the sound of a child crying for help, followed by a gunshot.

"We were in the kitchen. I heard the crying. It was a little boy. As soon as the gun went off, the crying stopped," said Cutcher. "Therefore, it tells me it was not Zimmerman crying."

Cutcher said that after hearing the shot, she went outside and found Zimmerman over Martin's body, touching it.

Doesn't look good for Zimmerman.

Zimmerman's father, Robert Zimmerman, said his son did not instigate the encounter and is not racist. Robert Zimmerman delivered a letter to the Orlando Sentinel on Thursday, saying the way his son is being depicted in the media is cruel and misleading. He also said his son has received death threats and moved out of his home.

The letter says George Zimmerman is Hispanic and grew up in a multiracial family, so "he would be the last to discriminate."

Looks to be that George Zimmerman is on the road of being most hated person right next to Osama bin Laden (I know he is dead and no offense to anyone affected by 9/11.), Casey Anthony, Fred Phelps, Lori Drew, or Jerry Sandusky. Whether this case was racially motivated, anyone can be racist. Many Latin American nations are racist and have a rigid society.

 

[daisy7]

Martin's death has stirred passions around the country, with people outraged that Zimmerman has not been arrested or charged.

Here's what outsiders might fail to realize: In Florida, the shooter only has to say these magic words to basically get a Get Out of Jail Free card: "I feared for my life...I felt I was in imminent danger, so I shot in self-defense."

This is what the Florida Legislature has wrought with the so-called Stand Your Ground Law, enacted last decade.

(snip)

http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/new...g/2012/03/trayvon_martin_death_shows_the.html

 

[Robyn623]

Martin's death has stirred passions around the country, with people outraged that Zimmerman has not been arrested or charged.

Here's what outsiders might fail to realize: In Florida, the shooter only has to say these magic words to basically get a Get Out of Jail Free card: "I feared for my life...I felt I was in imminent danger, so I shot in self-defense."

This is what the Florida Legislature has wrought with the so-called Stand Your Ground Law, enacted last decade.

(snip)

http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/new...g/2012/03/trayvon_martin_death_shows_the.html

But how does he get around the fact that he chased the kid he was supposedly so afraid of? If he sat in his car and TM approached him then I could maybe see this. The fact that he actually gets out of the car and follows TM shows he wasn't afraid for his life at all. JMO

 

[chefmom]

George Zimmerman wanted to be a police officer, and sometimes his aspirations led to action.

When he saw a 24-year-old Lake Mary man shoplift a 24-inch TV from an Albertsons supermarket in 2003, he called the Seminole County Sheriff's Office and followed the suspect's car for several blocks, allowing a deputy to make an arrest, records show.

The next year, Zimmerman followed a man who allegedly spit at him while driving, according to an incident report. The other driver accused Zimmerman — whom he described as "irate" — of tailgating, and was not arrested.

Though there are no enrollment records suggesting Zimmerman has attended a law-enforcement academy, he carried a concealed weapon and expressed his desire to wear a badge. He's currently enrolled in a general education program at Valencia Community College.

"I hold law enforcement officers in the highest regard as I hope to one day become one," Zimmerman wrote in a 2008 application to the Seminole County Sheriff's Officecitizen's law enforcement academy, a class that teaches citizens about policing and how the Sheriff's Office works.

Zimmerman was arrested in 2005 at a bar near the University of Central Florida on charges of assault on a law-enforcement officer and resisting arrest with violence. Both charges were ultimately dropped, according to court records.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-tension-20120317,0,4288837,full.story

Reading this makes me think of Jethro Bodeen. You know, Jed Clampets inept nephew? The huge, lurking, bumbling baffoon that thought he could do whatever he set his mind to? If he wanted to be a Private Investigator, he just bought a trench coat, a pair of glasses, a hat, and a notepad and started making up cases to solve. If he wanted to be a ranger, he bought an outfit, some binoculors, a canteen, and played ranger. Sounds to me like GZ wants to be a policeman. So he bought a gun, gets in his car, and waits for people that he doesn't know to show up so he can follow them and report them to the REAL police as "suspicious". Only difference I see is that, while Jethro may have caused property damage that cost his Uncle Jed some money, his little games never cost anyone their life. GZ should be charged, imo.

 

[daisy7]

Here is the full FL statute on use of deadly force and the "Stand Your Ground Law":

776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—
(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
(2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or
(b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or
(c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or
(d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.
(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
(5) As used in this section, the term:
(a) “Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night.
(b) “Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.
(c) “Vehicle” means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ng=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

 

[daisy7]

But how does he get around the fact that he chased the kid he was supposedly so afraid of? If he sat in his car and TM approached him then I could maybe see this. The fact that he actually gets out of the car and follows TM shows he wasn't afraid for his life at all. JMO

Exactly! IMO

 

[Rob774]

I have stayed away from these calls because frankly I didn't know if I could handle them. I did go to this link & fast forward to this mark and I kinda wish I didn't. You can very clearly hear TM screaming for help. You can hear the terror and panic in his voice and you can hear how those screams quiet when the gun goes off. I totally agree with you, Rob...how could you hear this kid scream for his life and still pull the trigger?!! I'm so disgusted that I can hardly type.

Because this is what he had planned all along, once he saw this "suspicious" person. Once Tray ran... and didn't get away, he was as good as dead! When Tray "supposedly" turned tables and fought back, and got a few licks in on Zimmerman, that's all it took for him to he had to execute this kid. When someone pleads for help, they are usually doing it from a positon of mercy. So i doubt if Tray had Zimmerman pinned to the ground, pleading for help. More than likely, it is Zimmerman who had Tray pinned, and Tray's only recourse was to beg for help. The cops were already on thier way, why shoot???

 

[chefmom]

Martin's death has stirred passions around the country, with people outraged that Zimmerman has not been arrested or charged.

Here's what outsiders might fail to realize: In Florida, the shooter only has to say these magic words to basically get a Get Out of Jail Free card: "I feared for my life...I felt I was in imminent danger, so I shot in self-defense."

This is what the Florida Legislature has wrought with the so-called Stand Your Ground Law, enacted last decade.

(snip)

http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/new...g/2012/03/trayvon_martin_death_shows_the.html

That is insane! At least it makes sense why a certain other, recently released, accused-but-found-not-guilty Floridian can state that they fear for their life if all you have to do in Florida is state that you feared for your life after killing someone and you get a pass. I completely support self-defense, but this is a tad over the top! JMO.

 

[Velouria]

Don't know if this was posted already.

Witness contradicts self-defense claim in teen's shooting
http://www.local10.com/news/Witness...teen-s-shooting/-/1717324/9359194/-/w5issk/-/

But, witness Mary Cutcher said she heard the sound of a child crying for help, followed by a gunshot.

"We were in the kitchen. I heard the crying. It was a little boy. As soon as the gun went off, the crying stopped," said Cutcher. "Therefore, it tells me it was not Zimmerman crying."

Cutcher said that after hearing the shot, she went outside and found Zimmerman over Martin's body, touching it.

Doesn't look good for Zimmerman.

Zimmerman's father, Robert Zimmerman, said his son did not instigate the encounter and is not racist. Robert Zimmerman delivered a letter to the Orlando Sentinel on Thursday, saying the way his son is being depicted in the media is cruel and misleading. He also said his son has received death threats and moved out of his home.

The letter says George Zimmerman is Hispanic and grew up in a multiracial family, so "he would be the last to discriminate."

Looks to be that George Zimmerman is on the road of being most hated person right next to Osama bin Laden (I know he is dead and no offense to anyone affected by 9/11.), Casey Anthony, Fred Phelps, Lori Drew, or Jerry Sandusky. Whether this case was racially motivated, anyone can be racist. Many Latin American nations are racist and have a rigid society.

Mr. Zimmerman's father also states:

At no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...ing-zimmerman-letter-20120315,0,1716605.story

Yet on the 911 tape GZ clearly states that he WAS in fact following TM. RZ wasn't there; he knows only what GZ told him.

 

[chefmom]

Here is the full FL statute on use of deadly force and the "Stand Your Ground Law":

776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—
(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
(2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or
(b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or
(c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or
(d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.
(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
(5) As used in this section, the term:
(a) “Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night.
(b) “Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.
(c) “Vehicle” means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ng=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

Thanks for that, daisy! So, as I read this, according to number 3, TM would have been well within his legal rights to turn around and ask GZ why he was following him, and, if GZ started to grab or restrain him, TM then had the right to fight and protect himself. (Which, I might add, is probably exactly what happened) And yet it is GZ who now gets to yield this as a shield? There is something so very wrong with that! IMO, if GZ has any injuries, it is from TM trying to get free from the over-zealous wanna be cop.

 

[cluciano63]

Does there have to be no logic in the whole "feared for my life" business? i.e. someone is armed, someone is chasing you, someone is coming at you, someone is threatening you. Or do you just get to murder and lie, because this is Florida, where it is okay to do any da**ned thing as long you say you were "in fear for your life"? This is so sickening...if this first-degree murder goes unpunished due to no charges, it is a disgrace to all of us, JMO.

 

[chefmom]

Does there have to be no logic in the whole "feared for my life" business? i.e. someone is armed, someone is chasing you, someone is coming at you, someone is threatening you. Or do you just get to murder and lie, because this is Florida, where it is okay to do any da**ned thing as long you say you were "in fear for your life"? This is so sickening...if this first-degree murder goes unpunished due to no charges, it is a disgrace to all of us, JMO.

I agree! It doesn't make sense! I wonder if any of the neighbors or buildings nearby had security cameras that might have caught any of the confrontation? Has anyone read anything about cameras? If, as has been stated, that there was recent crime in the area, I would think that someone might have installed security cameras. Or, perhaps clubhouse buildings might have them.

 

[daisy7]

That is insane! At least it makes sense why a certain other, recently released, accused-but-found-not-guilty Floridian can state that they fear for their life if all you have to do in Florida is state that you feared for your life after killing someone and you get a pass. I completely support self-defense, but this is a tad over the top! JMO.

I know I'm the one that posted this, but it is an opinion piece. I am definitely not a supporter of the Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground laws in FL and I follow these kinds of cases across the state.

This is IMO and I don't have a link to back it up, but I have never once heard of a case where LE said they would have to prove it was NOT self-defense in order to charge someone.

We had a case near here which was shortly after the Castle Doctrine was made law. I am stretching my memory here, so I apologize in advance if some of the details are incorrect. A few days after Hurricane Ivan devastated our community in September 2004, we had an incident when a person shot another person. The shooter was LE from the Tampa area (Hillsborough County) and saw a suspicious person in the neighborhood in Navarre. He may have just been here visiting or he may have been here officially as outside help in the aftermath of Ivan. I'm pretty sure there was a curfew in effect because of potential looting and this happened after it was dark. I don't remember if the person who was shot died. But, this case DID go to trial and the shooter was eventually found NG.

I've looked and looked for articles about this, but can't seem to find any. Maybe some other sleuthers will have better luck than I have?

ETA: this is daisy posting as a poster, not as as mod

 

[octobermoon]

Here it is call "make my day" law, and also has been abused. Folks, I grew up with guns, was taught to respect life. I was taught if you point a gun at someone, you better be ready to kill them. And if your aren't sure don't. Just don't. Not even in jest. not even if you think it is unloaded as there is no such thing. (thank you Dad ) JMO IMO MOO
----------------------------------------------
http://denver.cbslocal.com/2011/08/17/man-arrested-gets-lesson-on-colorados-make-my-day-law/

Man Arrested, Gets Lesson On Colorado’s ‘Make My Day’ Law

Federal Heights police arrested a man on felony menacing and reckless endangerment charges after pointing a handgun at a process server.

*snipped

The woman told CBS4 she did not touch the door. According to the police incident report, the woman identified herself as a process server to O’Quinn twice, saying she had to deliver him legal documents. When O’Quinn continued to wave the gun at her, she backed away into the street and called police.

 

[BiancaS]

Here is the full FL statute on use of deadly force and the "Stand Your Ground Law":

776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—
(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
(2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or
(b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or
(c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or
(d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.
(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
(5) As used in this section, the term:
(a) “Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night.
(b) “Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.
(c) “Vehicle” means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ng=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

BBM - I read this as saying that this must have happened within a dwelling to apply. As the altercation took place in a common area, I don't think it would fall under this law.