FL - 17-yo Boy Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain

[chefmom]

It is frightening enough to think that something like this has happened, but one thought frightens me even more. IF nothing is done to GZ, if he is not charged or punished in any way, what will he do next time? Now that he has had his first kill, how will it affect him? Will he be sick and saddened by it? Or will he feel that he did what he had to do to protect his neighborhood and simply go on to his next "watch"? It is the latter that I find to be frightening and disturbing. If he feels as though he had a right to do what he did, then he WILL do it again. Who is it going to be next time? A young mother who has locked herself out of the house and is going around the house trying all of the windows in the hope that just maybe one of them is unlocked? Or the elderly gentleman who has forgotten the combination to the lock on his shed so he is trying to break it off? Or perhaps it will be that 12 year old boy that shot up so much over the summer that he is now 6 ft tall and is now crouching behind a bush as he plays hide and seek with some friends? According to the GZ Playbook, any and all of these situations would make these people look "suspicious". If my father were still alive, and he was walking down the street and GZ asked him who he was and what he was doing, my father would have looked at him in defiance and asked him who the he77 he was and what business did he have asking! And, if GZ had tried to make my father stay put, my father would have probably put a whooping on him like he had never had, or at least he would have tried to. So. . . . what? According to the laws down there, GZ could then just shoot my father and claim self-defense? All because my father wouldn't tell GZ his business? This is mind-boggling to me! I hope the good people of Florida stand up to make some changes to this. If they don't, there will simply be more people murdered and the murderers will walk off to kill again.

 

[BiancaS]

As Cindy Anthony, that other fine resident of Central Florida, once said, "There's something wrong."

George does not own a townhouse in that complex, someone named Julie Zimmerman does (his sister??). George's drivers license shows that he lives in Lake Mary --- with his Mommy and Daddy. Now, I'm not one to talk as my 28 year old son just moved back home for a few months to catch up financially, but just what is George's story???

 

[HiHater]

As Cindy Anthony, that other fine resident of Central Florida, once said, "There's something wrong."

George does not own a townhouse in that complex, someone named Julie Zimmerman does (his sister??). George's drivers license shows that he lives in Lake Mary --- with his Mommy and Daddy. Now, I'm not one to talk as my 28 year old son just moved back home for a few months to catch up financially, but just what is George's story???

I'm so lost with what you just posted...

People own townhouses--like individual ones, I thought they are rented out? I've never heard of that, all the townhouses where I live have one main owner and each unit is rented out...like apartments.

 

[Salem]

~Respectfully snipped~

Here is the full FL statute on use of deadly force and the "Stand Your Ground Law":

776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—
(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:
(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ng=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

BBM - It is section (3) that applies here. Tray was NOT engaged in an unlawful activity and had the right to stand his ground and GZ shot him for it.

GZ cannot claim self-defense, imo, because he DID NOT have the legal right to confront Tray. Law Enforcement had ALREADY TOLD HIM TO DESIST IN HIS FOLLOWING OF TRAY. GZ had no LEGAL right to attempt to apprehend Tray and argument for self-defense because GZ was NOT where he had a legal right to be.

Apparently - Florida LE cannot read or interpret their own statutes.

Salem

 

[Velouria]

As Cindy Anthony, that other fine resident of Central Florida, once said, "There's something wrong."

George does not own a townhouse in that complex, someone named Julie Zimmerman does (his sister??). George's drivers license shows that he lives in Lake Mary --- with his Mommy and Daddy. Now, I'm not one to talk as my 28 year old son just moved back home for a few months to catch up financially, but just what is George's story???

Julie Zimmerman may be his wife. According to some published reports, GZ is married.

ETA: Scratch that. According to public records, that Julie Zimmerman is aged 55-59...his mother owns the property, perhaps?

 

[JeannaT]

I'm so lost with what you just posted...

People own townhouses--like individual ones, I thought they are rented out? I've never heard of that, all the townhouses where I live have one main owner and each unit is rented out...like apartments.

These are individually owned. That's why there's a strong homeowners association - all the units are owned by individuals. They could rent them out if they wanted, probably, or live there themselves.

You can look online and see individual ones for sale - 3 br 2 ba in the neighborhood of 100K.

 

[JeannaT]

~Respectfully snipped~

BBM - It is section (3) that applies here. Tray was NOT engaged in an unlawful activity and had the right to stand his ground and GZ shot him for it.

GZ cannot claim self-defense, imo, because he DID NOT have the legal right to confront Tray. Law Enforcement had ALREADY TOLD HIM TO DESIST IN HIS FOLLOWING OF TRAY. GZ had no LEGAL right to attempt to apprehend Tray and argument for self-defense because GZ was NOT where he had a legal right to be.

Apparently - Florida LE cannot read or interpret their own statutes.

Salem

He did have a legal right to confront him. You can confront anyone you want, anytime, on public or private property if you have the legal right to be on the private property you are on at the time. GZ did. He was a listed representative of the HOA.

You can walk up to someone in your neighborhood and say that is the most offensive shirt I've ever seen, or you look like the guy who stole my lawnmower. You can't detain them, or assault them. If your harassment becomes overbearing, the person can call the cops and they will say leave this guy alone or more formally they could get a restraining order if you were really bothering them that much.

 

[Salem]

He did have a legal right to confront him. You can confront anyone you want, anytime, on public or private property if you have the legal right to be on the private property you are on at the time. GZ did. He was a listed representative of the HOA.

You can walk up to someone in your neighborhood and say that is the most offensive shirt I've ever seen, or you look like the guy who stole my lawnmower. You can't detain them, or assault them. If your harassment becomes overbearing, the person can call the cops and they will say leave this guy alone or more formally they could get a restraining order if you were really bothering them that much.

I completely disagree in this situation. GZ had called LE. They had units on the way. LE told GZ to stop following Tray. Now, if all those things had not happened, maybe I would agree with you. But they did happen and because they happened - GZ LOST all legal right to confront Tray. He turned that right over to LE when he called them and LE told him to BACK OFF. GZ was in NO danger. NONE, NADA, ZIP until, against direction from LE, he stepped out of his car and confronted Tray with the FULL KNOWLEDGE that he (GZ) had a weapon that would equalize any playing field in his favor. GZ, at this point in time, had knowledge and INTENT to harm Tray. There is no other reason for him stepping out of his car, against LE direction. In my opinion and based on the facts that we have.

LE needs to step up to the plate here and address this, and they should do it pretty quickly. The community needs to DEMAND performance from this LE Department. Again, JMO.

Salem

 

[SuziQ]

I'm so lost with what you just posted...

People own townhouses--like individual ones, I thought they are rented out? I've never heard of that, all the townhouses where I live have one main owner and each unit is rented out...like apartments.

Most are sold individually.

 

[HiHater]

Julie Zimmerman may be his wife. According to some published reports, GZ is married.

ETA: Scratch that. According to public records, that Julie Zimmerman is aged 55-59...his mother owns the property, perhaps?

His mother's name is not Julie...not sure if appropriate to post her name though. Starts with a G...

 

[Salem]

We don't need to post the names of his family members. They are not involved, here.

Thanks,

Salem

 

[HiHater]

He did have a legal right to confront him. You can confront anyone you want, anytime, on public or private property if you have the legal right to be on the private property you are on at the time. GZ did. He was a listed representative of the HOA.

You can walk up to someone in your neighborhood and say that is the most offensive shirt I've ever seen, or you look like the guy who stole my lawnmower. You can't detain them, or assault them. If your harassment becomes overbearing, the person can call the cops and they will say leave this guy alone or more formally they could get a restraining order if you were really bothering them that much.

I strongly agree that GZ was a representative of the HOA. The parents have one more entity to hold responsible civilly; this association did not do due diligence in checking the background of their "neighborhood watch captain" and likely did not use strong enough language to deter vigilante activities and wannabe policing. They had complaints about his aggressive tactics, and they did nothing to stop him. So yes, I absolutely think he was a representative of the HOA.

GZ probably did try to restrain or detain Trayvon, and the struggle ensued. We are not talking about a simple verbal exchange.

 

[Salem]

Very good points, HiHater. The question is: Was GZ working under authority of the HOA? The media reports say that he was "self-appointed." But if that is the case and the HOA knew it, they had a responsibility to make GZ cease and desist.

Salem

 

[tlcya]

As Cindy Anthony, that other fine resident of Central Florida, once said, "There's something wrong."

George does not own a townhouse in that complex, someone named JZ does (his sister??). George's drivers license shows that he lives in Lake Mary --- with his Mommy and Daddy. Now, I'm not one to talk as my 28 year old son just moved back home for a few months to catch up financially, but just what is George's story???

So GZ does not even reside in the neighborhood he was "captain" of the neighborhood watch for???

This guy is one of those trigger happy, adrenaline seeking dudes who always want to be police officers but can't seem to pass the psyche eval IMO

 

[HMSHood]

Very good points, HiHater. The question is: Was GZ working under authority of the HOA? The media reports say that he was "self-appointed." But if that is the case and the HOA knew it, they had a responsibility to make GZ cease and desist.

Salem

If he was self-appointed, than how did this slip by?

 

[Salem]

If he was self-appointed, than how did this slip by?

I have no idea. We have to remember we are getting our facts from the media. But the majority of articles indicate he was "self-appointed." To me, that is just scary, given, as HiHater pointed out, there had been complaints about GZ's "zealousness," kwim?

And it is also what makes it so frustrating that LE does not appear to be investigating or dealing with the situation. GZ should be up on charges and LE has failed to give a valid reason for GZ's self-defense claim. Self-defense is not available where you are the aggressor, and here GZ was the aggressor and the 911 calls clearly show that. It doesn't really matter who was calling for help. GZ got out of his car, with intent to confront and potentially apprehend Tray AFTER LE told him not too. That, all by itself, makes GZ the aggressor in my mind.

I don't know how LE can come out and say this was self defense. I don't get that at all. :waitasec::waitasec:

Salem

 

[SuziQ]

Remember this case?

Father murdered in front of 8 year old daughter for standing up for skateboarders
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7461323"]Father murdered in front of 8 year old daughter for standing up for skateboarders - Page 5 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/editorials/article1124957.ece

(snip)
In Dooley's case in Hillsborough, the Sheriff's Department says he carried a gun as he confronted a boy riding a skateboard on a basketball court. The episode ended with 41-year-old David James shot dead. He had been playing basketball with his 8-year-old daughter when he and Dooley argued over the skateboarding.
In responding to the incident, the Sheriff's Office had to follow state law that forbids police from detaining a suspect who acts in self-defense. Deputies had to exclude the likelihood that Dooley was standing his ground under Florida law before they could legally arrest him. And the "stand your ground" law is so broad and vague that as long as a person is doing nothing illegal, he can kill another person if he is reasonably put in fear of great bodily harm — even if the victim is unarmed.

 

[Talina]

Very good points, HiHater. The question is: Was GZ working under authority of the HOA? The media reports say that he was "self-appointed." But if that is the case and the HOA knew it, they had a responsibility to make GZ cease and desist.

Salem

This article gives some info on how he came to be the watch captain.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/c...abitual-caller-to-2247073.html?printArticle=y

 

[annalia]

It doesn't look like GZ was any stranger to confrontation.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/12/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_n_1340358.html

At an emergency homeowner’s association meeting on March 1, “one man was escorted out because he openly expressed his frustration because he had previously contacted the Sanford Police Department about Zimmerman approaching him and even coming to his home,” the resident wrote in an email to HuffPost. “It was also made known that there had been several complaints about George Zimmerman and his tactics" in his neighborhood watch captain role.

 

[corq]

This is deeply upsetting, unsure if it was posted elsewhere, but that Trayvon was a John Doe for a short time after the shooting, this is horrible for so many reasons, one of them being that
the confusion surrounding John Does means some evidence gets missed, in that if a family isn't immediately made aware something so wrong has happened, no one in those first few hours can assure or be that's child's advocate for Justice. (IME)

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/17/opinion/blow-the-curious-case-of-trayvon-martin.html