FL - 17-yo Boy Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain

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What duty to retreat? The whole point of the law is that a person doesn't have duty to retreat. Trayvon didn't have an obligation to retreat and under that law they wouldn't have charged him. Of course it doesn't matter since he is dead.

There is no duty to retreat, I acknowledge that. That means if you are approached you do not have to run away or try to escape the situation. George Zimmerman was running TO the situation; he created it.

You keep saying "if Trayvon was alive," "he's dead"...pointing out the obvious. Do you think that laws only protect the living? The dead cannot speak for themselves, usually prosecutors seek justice on their behalf. That's not happened yet in this case.
 
That's a large part of what has everyone so outraged. If you have just a modicum of common sense then this law is not really a horrible idea. The fact is that the local LE refuse to use any common sense at all. They disregard the fact that GZ did not want to tell the police where he would meet them because it is plain as a pikestaff that he intended to give chase to this suspicious person and confront him and he didn't know where he would be. Witnesses may not know who was screaming, but if it was GZ, how amazing is it that he managed to stop as soon as he shot. Are we to suppose that GZ was screaming and pleading for his life because this young man was about to smack him silly with his iced tea and skittles? When he had a loaded gun in his waistband? While on the other hand, a young man who was trying to get home in a strange neighborhood might very well scream and beg and plead when confronted with a man aiming a gun at him, and it makes perfect sense that his screaming stopped after he was shot.

Guess it just goes to show that common sense isn't very darn common anymore!

And since when do the police NOT do any test for alcohol and drugs when there is ANY kind of incident let alone if you shoot someone, I mean they still do them around here for minor traffic accidents....just one more thing in this whole rotten incident that makes zero common sense to me.

That doesn't prove Trayvon was the one screaming, since GZ would have no need to scream either after the shot (nobody was fighting with him anymore).
If police didn't test GZ for drugs and alcohol, clearly they should have, but this is something that can not be undone.
 
There is no duty to retreat, I acknowledge that. That means if you are approached you do not have to run away or try to escape the situation. George Zimmerman was running TO the situation; he created it.

You keep saying "if Trayvon was alive," "he's dead"...pointing out the obvious. Do you think that laws only protect the living? The dead cannot speak for themselves, usually prosecutors seek justice on their behalf. That's not happened yet in this case.

If state passes a law such as this, then yes, the dead can not speak and it makes hard for prosecutors to prosecute someone who claims he or she acted in self-defense. I guess we can thank the NRA.
 
That doesn't prove Trayvon was the one screaming, since GZ would have no need to scream either after the shot (nobody was fighting with him anymore).
If police didn't test GZ for drugs and alcohol, clearly they should have, but this is something that can not be undone.

He wouldn't have a need to scream during the struggle either. He had a gun. No one can help you more than a 9mm. What exactly did George Zimmerman need help with? Getting his target to stay still?

I know people react differently, but if he were truly scared for his life, wouldn't he be shook up after the fact? Like OMG, I almost/could have DIED. Pacing, and making the claim that it was self defense doesn't make sense...
 
We are discussing the law, and the MURDER of Trayvon Martin. :what:

That law centers, for me, centers on the duty to retreat. Meaning if you are approached, you have no obligation to run. How does that work inversely? It DOESN'T.

Regardless of what the law says, it is applied on a case-by-case basis. In that aspect, it is not as broad as some would claim it to be. There is no doubt in my mind that a jury should be given this case, and they should decide whether or not George Zimmerman was "standing his ground." I will respect the jury's decision, but I think it's an insult to the entire justice system, to the Constitution, and to "we the people" to have the Sanford Police Department make that decision.


EXACTLY, applied on a case by case basis, and using some common sense and the evidence that is before you, the law is not as broad and stupid as many would paint it. It is not the law that is at fault. It is LE and their perfectly ludicrous suggestion that they must have hard and fast proof that the young man who was shot dead was NOT somehow the aggressor, and that the grown man, Captain of the neighborhood watch who was chasing him, with a loaded gun on his person was somehow in fear for his life...

You can't pile absurdity much higher than that before it smothers you. Juries are not infallable, (case in point Casey Anthony) but I refuse to believe that 12 rational people could look at this and see self defense anywhere. How does a grown man find himself in fear of his life from an unarmed person who is smaller and younger than he, when he has a loaded gun?

We want juries to be open minded but not so freaking open minded that their brains fall out.
 
My main thoughts thus far:

Zimmerman had made up his mind about what type of "character" Trayvon had and what he was up to before exchanging a single word with the child. IMO, the 911 call clearly shows a man off his rocker...he's unloading anger over past events on to what should have been a simple report of suspicious person. He even made the assumption EARLY in the call that Trayvon was another "******* getting away with it."

It was 7pm...not 4am. Zimmerman was unnecessarily on edge from the get go.

Zimmerman did his "civic duty" in calling LE. Once he got out of the SUV, he became an aggressor which led to HIS criminal behavior.

Trayvon is the one that has the "stand your ground" rights in this scenario.

There is nothing in Zimmerman's story where he identifies himself as a rep of the HOA in anyway, no sticker on his car, no reflective vest. It is a very reasonable expectation that Trayvon would be scared of Zimmerman and fearing for his own life.

Trayvon was being STALKED by an angry man who shot him in cold blood. The cries for help end with the gun shot. If it were Zimmerman screaming, he'd still be going. You might have heard him let out a guttural moan from the peak of his adrenaline when his safety was restored, or maybe he'd belt out "OH MY GOD !!!!" or "WHAT HAVE I DONE?" or even "YOU STUPID STUPID KID!" and of course if he was such a civil servant, he'd be screaming "CALL 911 !!!!!!" You don't go from screaming at the top of your lungs begging for mercy to silence....unless of course, you can no longer scream !

Trayvon had every right to fear for his own safety - a man in an SUV was creeping along behind him, eventually got out of the car and approached him with anger - there is no question of that IMO, Zimmerman was PISSED off on that 911 call and it escalated from there.

There's a lot of chatter about what Trayvon was up to, a little anecdotal story popped in to my head reading this, my teenaged daughter started smoking at age 17. She wasn't very good at covering her tracks so I generally figured out what she was up to immediately upon her return (cuz she stunk !!). One of the dead giveaways that she had run out of cigarettes (and was still smoking tho she swore it was just a few times) was a just under 2 mile walk to the convenience store in the rain. Should my daughter be shot when she's walking back from the convenience store with her "iced tea" (which ironically was her cover story and purchase when she did this)?? Perhaps Trayvon was up to typical teenage misbehavior like this? What right does Zimmerman have to be the judge and jury and well executioner?!?! Maybe Trayvon was nervous he'd get caught with a cigarette??
 
IMO, the very first clue was that GZ was carrying a gun, period, full stop.

Just from the different pieces of information that we have it appears as if he was very invested in the title of Captain of the crime watch, and there appears to be information out that he was aggressively engaged in not only watching, but in warning and confronting people as well.

Just reading between the lines, it looks as if he was confronting those that he felt were suspicious, carrying his concealed gun, and just waiting for a chance to use it. You don't need a gun if you are a crime WATCH, you only need to watch...and a camcorder isn't going to hurt anyone. When he got out of the car and followed or chased after someone who was not even remotely doing anything criminal he crossed the line.

I can promise you that if I were walking in any neighborhood and someone I did not know chased me, and attempted to detain me I would react aggressively, it is just a serious lack of common sense to say at that point that the man who was following (chasing) T. and outweighed him by at least 80 lbs, was the victim of an attack so vicious as to deserve being allowed toshoot this kid who was not doing anything remotely criminal to death. None of this passes the smell test.

That man was not carrying a gun just in case, he was carrying that gun because he intended to make sure that there was an opportunity to use it. JMHO

Great first post, Sensei, and welcome to WS!

I agree with what you and gitana 1 said, and feel GZ had this all planned out because he wanted to impress the LE that he could be a policeman and get the job done. I'm also wondering if he asked SPD some questions about the 'stand your ground/self defense' law, NOT that they knew he would do this ahead of time but that he wanted to be sure of the law before he used it and know they would have to back him up.

IMO, part of his plan also was to have it happen at night so it would be harder to tell what was happening. It also had to be someone who was a stranger to him and the neighborhood, better to be called 'suspicious'.

One reason I think this is that he had everything down pat at the end...he laid the gun down in one account, in another he had it in his waistband, and promptly said 'it was self defense'. At that point he knew from information he had studied or gotten from LE, he was clear because LE would have to prove him wrong in order to arrest him.

A normal person who just experienced a real 'stand your ground' incident would not react like he did. They would still be upset and frightened and saying something like, 'I didn't want to shoot but he kept beating me and I had to, to get him to stop!"

GZ: 'I yelled for help' and 'it was self-defense', all ready to declare.

Another thing, GZ obviously had Trayvon down and begging for mercy, so why at that point did he have to shoot to kill? He could have stood back and just held the gun on the boy if he was still 'in fear of his life', of if he still 'believed he had to shoot', why did it have to be a fatal shot? Why not shoot for a leg, an arm?

No reason except he wanted to kill and use this law as justification.

I live in the state and hate this law, said back when it was being debated and passed, along with many others here, that just such as this incident would happen and the law would be misused. It was made to be misused.

IMO
 
THAT is a very informative article. Thanks for finding and posting.

That article angered me. According to some of the neighbors interviewed, they (the neighbors) were afraid to walk around the neighborhood because they fit GZ's continual description of "suspicious"! The people who lived in the neighborhood weren't comfortable enough to walk the streets of their own neighborhood because of this man! Speaks volumes to me!
 
That article angered me. According to some of the neighbors interviewed, they (the neighbors) were afraid to walk around the neighborhood because they fit GZ's continual description of "suspicious"! The people who lived in the neighborhood weren't comfortable enough to walk the streets of their own neighborhood because of this man! Speaks volumes to me!

Speaks volumes to me too, as well as one article where a neighbor and his wife took shooting lessons and got a gun and then he says that he doesn't walk around the neighborhood with the gun of course!!!

Someone upthread asked if GZ has psychological problems, and if I had to guess, and I do, from what we've read if it is at all accurate it is apparent that he has a Rambo complex.

I do agree with you, he was going to shoot someone eventually, and by reading what has been said by the neighbors and listening to the 911 calls it's hard to miss, he is trying to put everything in place for the self defense argument, and at the same time knowing that he was not going to be at his car to meet the LE who were on the way because he knew he was going to follow this suspicious stranger and force a confrontation, so he says can I call and tell them where to meet me?

All that and the cop talk, and about the stranger has something in his hands, he's got his hands in his waistband ect ect. To me that just says that this was not simply bad judgement, that he didn't just accidentally stumble onto a deadly confrontation, he was determined that there would be a confrontation. It is frightening and sad, because it will very likely happen again if nothing is done.
 
Depends when he self appointed himself. He could have done it since the las HOA's meeting, and they knew nothing about it. Or they knew, and deemed it harmless.



If he was self-appointed, than how did this slip by?
 
That was the first thing that I thought of when I heard the comment about TM's hand in his waistband, that that particular comment was a CMA comment. My husband sticks his hand in his waistband every night after I feed him to loosen it off of his bulging gut. Maybe TM's pants were slipping. Maybe his underwear were. Maybe he just thought it looked cool. I don't know. But I do know that it's not against the law. He was killed because GZ thought young, black males were stealing stuff in the neighborhood and this one wasn't "getting away". moo

Or maybe Trayvon never had his hands in his waistband at all. That's what I think. I think Zimmerman was angry that other "suspicious" black males had "gotten away" after he called police. He intended to make sure this one didn't and I think he intended to shoot him. He knew what to say to set up a claim of self defense. The kid was suspicious, he was black, he looked to be on drugs, he started coming up to Zimmerman, he had his hand in his waist band.

I do not believe one word of it. Not one.

I think Trayvon was walking quietly home to bring his little brother candy, saw some weirdo stalking him, became afraid and tried to run when the weirdo exited his car, chased the kid down, and ultimately shot him as Trayvon yelled for help.

911 calls made prior to this "incident" by GZ. Both calls describe "black males in their late teens". Apparently, GZ was always calling LE when he saw teenage black males.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...20120319_1_crime-watch-neighborhood-volunteer

Doesn't surprise me in the least.
 
The self-appointed part doesn't bother me. We had a crime spree in a former neighborhood...everyone was upset about it but no one wanted to do anything. Three Dads stepped up and did late night "shifts" for a while. I would imagine they'd be called self-appointed.

What does bother me is, it seems like every time a squirrel farted, GZ was going bananas.
 
College students rally at courthouse for Trayvon Martin


In a scene reminiscent of a 1960s civil rights rally, college students on Monday gathered outside the Seminole County criminal courthouse, sang "We Shall Overcome" and demanded the immediate arrest of a neighborhood watch volunteer who shot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.

"This is not acceptable," said Jason Reed, 25, a Florida A&M University student. "There was a time when this was acceptable. That time is not now."
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...0319_1_college-students-evidence-backs-police
 
Or maybe Trayvon never had his hands in his waistband at all. That's what I think. I think Zimmerman was angry that other "suspicious" black males had "gotten away" after he called police. He intended to make sure this one didn't and I think he intended to shoot him. He knew what to say to set up a claim of self defense. The kid was suspicious, he was black, he looked to be on drugs, he started coming up to Zimmerman, he had his hand in his waist band.

I do not believe one word of it. Not one.

I think Trayvon was walking quietly home to bring his little brother candy, saw some weirdo stalking him, became afraid and tried to run when the weirdo exited his car, chased the kid down, and ultimately shot him as Trayvon yelled for help.



Doesn't surprise me in the least.

I agree. He more likely than not made up everything, or at least exaggerated innocent things to sound 'suspicious". For example:

TM is walking down the sidewalk with a can of tea in his pocket.
GZ: "This guy looks like he's up to no good or he's on drugs or something."

TM hears children yelling and looks around to see who it is.
GZ: "It's raining and he's just walking around looking about."

TM notices a man watching him.
GZ: "Now he's coming towards me."

TM feels to see if he brought his cell phone.
GZ: "He's got his hand in his waistband."

TM is feeling nervous and starts to walk quickly away.
GZ: "Something's wrong with him."

It is clear that GZ was setting that call up to cover for an incident that he had total control over. GZ planned on confronting this 'black male" who was looking 'suspicious" in HIS neighborhood. Plain and simple. That kid was doomed when their paths crossed. moo
 
Trayvon's murder is going to be discussed on JVM.

Vinnie P is discussing it right now.
 
He wouldn't have a need to scream during the struggle either. He had a gun. No one can help you more than a 9mm. What exactly did George Zimmerman need help with? Getting his target to stay still?

I know people react differently, but if he were truly scared for his life, wouldn't he be shook up after the fact? Like OMG, I almost/could have DIED. Pacing, and making the claim that it was self defense doesn't make sense...

Unless they can do a voice analysis to determine which one was screaming, none of this is beyond a reasonable doubt. We know the two of them did fight, based on 911 calls.
 
Or maybe Trayvon never had his hands in his waistband at all. That's what I think. I think Zimmerman was angry that other "suspicious" black males had "gotten away" after he called police. He intended to make sure this one didn't and I think he intended to shoot him. He knew what to say to set up a claim of self defense. The kid was suspicious, he was black, he looked to be on drugs, he started coming up to Zimmerman, he had his hand in his waist band.

I do not believe one word of it. Not one.

I think Trayvon was walking quietly home to bring his little brother candy, saw some weirdo stalking him, became afraid and tried to run when the weirdo exited his car, chased the kid down, and ultimately shot him as Trayvon yelled for help.


Doesn't surprise me in the least.

IMO GZ and the truth are strangers. I am appalled that LE took his word with no question or routine gathering of evidence. However, this is the Sanford PD. They are IMO an inept, biased club of *advertiser censored**holes. OMG, I do not ever use language like that, but I am so angry. I hope there is an investigation and house cleaning. That would be one good thing to come out of this.
There also needs to be revision of this law because it protects perps like GZ who kill the innocent. Why are legislators not calling for investigations into this? Only Corrine Brown has spoken out about this. And still nothing is done.

I do not live in Sanford, just very close. This hits close to home and exposes things that are more common than we would like to think. Vigilantes and racism are both alive and well in Florida. The media, people are talking about this, but elected officials are strangely silent. It makes me feel hopeless.
All JMO.
 
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