FL - 17-yo Boy Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain

[Belinda]

He may have been self-appointed, but the HOA was well aware of his presence and aggressive behavior. They received numerous complaints about GZ being aggressive, yet they did nothing to stop him. I believe that makes them at least partially culpable for the murder.

 

[Sensei]

IMO, the very first clue was that GZ was carrying a gun, period, full stop.

Just from the different pieces of information that we have it appears as if he was very invested in the title of Captain of the crime watch, and there appears to be information out that he was aggressively engaged in not only watching, but in warning and confronting people as well.

Just reading between the lines, it looks as if he was confronting those that he felt were suspicious, carrying his concealed gun, and just waiting for a chance to use it. You don't need a gun if you are a crime WATCH, you only need to watch...and a camcorder isn't going to hurt anyone. When he got out of the car and followed or chased after someone who was not even remotely doing anything criminal he crossed the line.

I can promise you that if I were walking in any neighborhood and someone I did not know chased me, and attempted to detain me I would react aggressively, it is just a serious lack of common sense to say at that point that the man who was following (chasing) T. and outweighed him by at least 80 lbs, was the victim of an attack so vicious as to deserve being allowed toshoot this kid who was not doing anything remotely criminal to death. None of this passes the smell test.

That man was not carrying a gun just in case, he was carrying that gun because he intended to make sure that there was an opportunity to use it. JMHO

 

[JeannaT]

If he was self-appointed, than how did this slip by?

It didn't slip buy - all crime watch captains are "self-appointed". More recent media articles are calling him "volunteer" which is more correct than self-appointed. The HOA listed him as the crime watch captain in their newsletter - it's not like he just up and decided to do this and no one knew.

 

[tlcya]

IMO, the very first clue was that GZ was carrying a gun, period, full stop.

Just from the different pieces of information that we have it appears as if he was very invested in the title of Captain of the crime watch, and there appears to be information out that he was aggressively engaged in not only watching, but in warning and confronting people as well.

Just reading between the lines, it looks as if he was confronting those that he felt were suspicious, carrying his concealed gun, and just waiting for a chance to use it. You don't need a gun if you are a crime WATCH, you only need to watch...and a camcorder isn't going to hurt anyone. When he got out of the car and followed or chased after someone who was not even remotely doing anything criminal he crossed the line.

I can promise you that if I were walking in any neighborhood and someone I did not know chased me, and attempted to detain me I would react aggressively, it is just a serious lack of common sense to say at that point that the man who was following (chasing) T. and outweighed him by at least 80 lbs, was the victim of an attack so vicious as to deserve being allowed toshoot this kid who was not doing anything remotely criminal to death. None of this passes the smell test.

That man was not carrying a gun just in case, he was carrying that gun because he intended to make sure that there was an opportunity to use it. JMHO

All of this :goodpost:

 

[chefmom]

Well, let's hope that TM's family files a wrongful death action against GZ! While they are at it, they can sue the owner of the property he was staying in, the HOA, and any and all insurance companies involved with same. At the same time, they need to keep the pressure on LE there to hold GZ accountable. They should put their faces on every talk show and news show that will have them. Rally the big dogs and rattle some chains. Eventually, something will happen. moo

 

[Belinda]

I feel that this was an out-and-out execution. I am so disgusted with the Sanford PD right now, I can barely stand it. I can't begin to imagine the rage Tray's family must feel. This almost makes me ashamed to be a white person. GZ and his father can say what they want, but Tray was suspicious to him simply for the fact that he was black. He took that fact and then determined that Tray was up to no good and he should put a stop to it. I could just spit. This racial nonsense has got to stop. It's stupid.

 

[gitana1]

GZ 911 call transcript part two.

D: OK, which entrance is that, that he's heading towards?

GZ: The back entrance. (wind interference? begins to sound as if GZ is out of his vehicle IMO)

D: Are you following him?

GZ: Yep.

D (immediate on heels of "yep"): OK, we don't need you to do that.

GZ: OK

(wind)

D: Alright sir, what is your name?

GZ: George. (pause) (unclear--"he ran"?)

D: And George, what is your last name?

GZ: Zimmerman.

D: And George, what's the phone number you're calling from?

GZ: (gives phone number)

D: Alright George, we do have 'em on the way, do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?

GZ: Yeah.

D: Alright, where are you gonna meet with them at?

GZ: If they... come in through the uh gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse and uh... straight past the clubhouse and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, they'll see my truck...

(crosstalk)

D: OK, what address are you parked in front of?

GZ: Um, I don't know... it's a cut-through so I don't know the address.

D: OK, do you live in the area?

GZ: Yeah, yeah.

D: What's your apartment number?

GZ: It's a home, it's (gives number of address) oh cr@p I don't wanna give it all out (unclear)

D: Ok do you wanna just meet with them right by the mailboxes then?

GZ: Yeah, that's fine.

D: Alright George I'll let them know they're meeting with you out there then.

GZ: Could you have them, could you have them call me and I'll tell them where I'm at?

D: OK. Yeah, that's no problem.

GZ: You need my number or you got it?

D: Yeah I got it (repeats number).

GZ: Yeah you got it.

D: OK no problem. I'll let 'em know to call you when they're in the area.

GZ: Thanks.

D: You're welcome.

[recording ends]

http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/george-zimmerman-call-to-sanford-police/vGZq9/

BBM.

IMO, the very first clue was that GZ was carrying a gun, period, full stop.

Just from the different pieces of information that we have it appears as if he was very invested in the title of Captain of the crime watch, and there appears to be information out that he was aggressively engaged in not only watching, but in warning and confronting people as well.

Just reading between the lines, it looks as if he was confronting those that he felt were suspicious, carrying his concealed gun, and just waiting for a chance to use it. You don't need a gun if you are a crime WATCH, you only need to watch...and a camcorder isn't going to hurt anyone. When he got out of the car and followed or chased after someone who was not even remotely doing anything criminal he crossed the line.

I can promise you that if I were walking in any neighborhood and someone I did not know chased me, and attempted to detain me I would react aggressively, it is just a serious lack of common sense to say at that point that the man who was following (chasing) T. and outweighed him by at least 80 lbs, was the victim of an attack so vicious as to deserve being allowed toshoot this kid who was not doing anything remotely criminal to death. None of this passes the smell test.

That man was not carrying a gun just in case, he was carrying that gun because he intended to make sure that there was an opportunity to use it. JMHO

I agree. I'll go a step farther. My gut tells me that this man was angling to kill someone, especially if that someone was black. I think he set it up in the call to police. Notice how he didn't want to give out his address in the call to police? Why? Because he knew what was going to happen and didn't want angry people to be able to track him down.

I believe there was nothing whatsoever about Trayvon that was suspicious, or threatening, nothing. I think Zimmerman's claims that he looked to be on drugs, and was checking Zimmerman out or even approaching Zimmerman, were bald.face.lies.

He knew what he had to set up in order to justify a shooting. "They" always get away. He wanted to make sure this one didn't. His call was designed to create a self-defense defense to intentional homicide.

The only reason, IMO, that Zimmerman has not been arrested is because Trayvon was a young black kid. Oh, people hate when "race" is brought into anything, but that's only because they have had no real experience with racism against themselves, their loved ones or friends. Minorities know racism continues to be a pervasive evil in our society because they experience it on a daily basis. The clerks that constantly follow them around the story. The ladies that clutch their bags a bit tighter when they approach, even when they are nicely dressed and groomed in a well-lit place. Being pulled over constantly for no reason whatsoever. Not being called back for job interviews because their name gives their ethnicity away. Being called in for a job interview and then recognizing the look of dismay when the interviewer sees that the name did not give the ethnicity away, and realizing hopes of getting that job disappeared when they walked through the door. Watching people bend over backwards to prove that a murderer must have been acting in self-defense against an unarmed victim, when that victim is black.

I mean, the victim must have been violent, right? He must have confronted the murderer and caused the shooting. And can you blame the shooter? After all, it was a scary black person. Just that fact alone should justify what is a tragic and sad event, but come on! Aren't we all afraid of young black males? Aren't they prone to violence? And while this is sad, and we are all sorry it happened, let's face it, statistics show he would have been dead soon anyhow so while this is unfortunate, does it really matter that much? (Sarcasm alert).

IMO, a murderer remains free, possibly to kill again because Trayvon was black. No other reason.

Trayvon was a good, young man. A child, still, walking to get candy. Zimmerman stalked him like prey, IMO, chased him down and caused the fear of God to creep into this poor kid's soul.

He is a stalker, a creep and a killer and he is getting away with murder. And that is an abomination.

 

[Belinda]

Well, let's hope that TM's family files a wrongful death action against GZ! While they are at it, they can sue the owner of the property he was staying in, the HOA, and any and all insurance companies involved with same. At the same time, they need to keep the pressure on LE there to hold GZ accountable. They should put their faces on every talk show and news show that will have them. Rally the big dogs and rattle some chains. Eventually, something will happen. moo

ITA - Excellent post!

 

[Sensei]

I feel that this was an out-and-out execution. I am so disgusted with the Sanford PD right now, I can barely stand it. I can't begin to imagine the rage Tray's family must feel. This almost makes me ashamed to be a white person. GZ and his father can say what they want, but Tray was suspicious to him simply for the fact that he was black. He took that fact and then determined that Tray was up to no good and he should put a stop to it. I could just spit. This racial nonsense has got to stop. It's stupid.

He was young and black and wearing a hoodie and to GZ that equals suspicious. He was probably walking slow and looking around because he was in unfamiliar territory, it's easy to get turned around in a new neighborhood when many of the townhouses look alike.

IMO, even if he was up to no good, and planning to steal someone's bicycle or someone's grill, or even break into their house...We don't give anyone the death penalty for that.

The Captain of the crime watch created a confrontation by following him, escalated the confrontation (very likely if he was attacked at all it was because he scared this young man's toenails off) and then shot him to death and now is saying it was Self defense, and that is just not right. There was no reason to believe that TM was going to do anything illegal, but even if he were, we are not a country that allows someone to kill you because you steal their barbque grill or their bicycle.

 

[jjenny]

That's a slippery slope...the dead can't speak, ever. What contradicts GZ's claim that Trayvon approached him is GZ's 911 call. We are to believe that he was concerned about this "suspicious" person in light of recent burglaries, was following him (against advice), did not want this *advertiser censored**hole to get away, the "suspicious" person ran, GZ chased him, but yet he didn't confront him? No one could reasonably believe that. If you chase someone, you intend to catch, and therefore confront, the person.


What if Trayvon was STANDING HIS GROUND?

Well if Trayvon was STANDING HIS GROUND then they wouldn't have charged Trayvon either. I am not sure what we are discussing here. Based on this law, it looks to me like anyone can kill anyone and claim self-defense. FL passed this law that is so broad and covers so many possibilities and this is the consequence (and clearly I am not the only one to notice that). In this case to charge/convict GZ prosecution would need a witness contradicting what he told police-and they don't have that as far as I can tell. Witnesses don't know who was screaming, or attacked whom first.

 

[HiHater]

After reading a little bit upthread, I see I am not the only one who thinks GZ may have possibly been posturing in the 911 call; he was justifying his actions before they even occurred.

The part that gets me is when GZ says that Trayvon is reaching for his waistband, and that he has something in his hands. That's something that you would hear a real police officer say, in an officer-involved shooting. It's another example that GZ's reality may have been blurred. People can reach in their waistbands, their socks, their underwear or whatever---and doing so does not mean they pose a threat.

I also noticed that he says he doesn't want to give out his entire address. Why not? He has called 911 46 times, did he decline to give out his address on any other call? As a matter of a fact, I think the family should go further and push for ALL 911 calls where Zimmerman was the caller to be released. Is there a pattern? Had Zimmerman followed anyone else? Or, did Zimmerman follow Trayvon, because he looked like a kid and knew he could overpower him? Again, I find it really interesting that no real criminals were injured or killed during Zimmerman's patrols. Maybe the real criminals disregarded his "authority" and he thought that Trayvon being a child (late teens) would comply, or could be forced...

JMO MOO IMO

 

[HMSHood]

It didn't slip buy - all crime watch captains are "self-appointed". More recent media articles are calling him "volunteer" which is more correct than self-appointed. The HOA listed him as the crime watch captain in their newsletter - it's not like he just up and decided to do this and no one knew.

I see. I wonder if Zimmerman has any psychological problems.

 

[Sensei]

Well if Trayvon was STANDING HIS GROUND then they wouldn't have charged Trayvon either. I am not sure what we are discussing here. Based on this law, it looks to me like anyone can kill anyone and claim self-defense. FL passed this law that is so broad and covers so many possibilities and this is the consequence (and clearly I am not the only one to notice that). In this case to charge/convict GZ prosecution would need a witness contradicting what he told police-and they don't have that as far as I can tell. Witnesses don't know who was screaming, or attacked whom first.

That's a large part of what has everyone so outraged. If you have just a modicum of common sense then this law is not really a horrible idea. The fact is that the local LE refuse to use any common sense at all. They disregard the fact that GZ did not want to tell the police where he would meet them because it is plain as a pikestaff that he intended to give chase to this suspicious person and confront him and he didn't know where he would be. Witnesses may not know who was screaming, but if it was GZ, how amazing is it that he managed to stop as soon as he shot. Are we to suppose that GZ was screaming and pleading for his life because this young man was about to smack him silly with his iced tea and skittles? When he had a loaded gun in his waistband? While on the other hand, a young man who was trying to get home in a strange neighborhood might very well scream and beg and plead when confronted with a man aiming a gun at him, and it makes perfect sense that his screaming stopped after he was shot.

Guess it just goes to show that common sense isn't very darn common anymore!

And since when do the police NOT do any test for alcohol and drugs when there is ANY kind of incident let alone if you shoot someone, I mean they still do them around here for minor traffic accidents....just one more thing in this whole rotten incident that makes zero common sense to me.

 

[chefmom]

After reading a little bit upthread, I see I am not the only one who thinks GZ may have possibly been posturing in the 911 call; he was justifying his actions before they even occurred.

The part that gets me is when GZ says that Trayvon is reaching for his waistband, and that he has something in his hands. That's something that you would hear a real police officer say, in an officer-involved shooting. It's another example that GZ's reality may have been blurred. People can reach in their waistbands, their socks, their underwear or whatever---and doing so does not mean they pose a threat.

I also noticed that he says he doesn't want to give out his entire address. Why not? He has called 911 46 times, did he decline to give out his address on any other call? As a matter of a fact, I think the family should go further and push for ALL 911 calls where Zimmerman was the caller to be released. Is there a pattern? Had Zimmerman followed anyone else? Or, did Zimmerman follow Trayvon, because he looked like a kid and knew he could overpower him? Again, I find it really interesting that no real criminals were injured or killed during Zimmerman's patrols. Maybe the real criminals disregarded his "authority" and he thought that Trayvon being a child (late teens) would comply, or could be forced...

JMO MOO IMO

That was the first thing that I thought of when I heard the comment about TM's hand in his waistband, that that particular comment was a CMA comment. My husband sticks his hand in his waistband every night after I feed him to loosen it off of his bulging gut. Maybe TM's pants were slipping. Maybe his underwear were. Maybe he just thought it looked cool. I don't know. But I do know that it's not against the law. He was killed because GZ thought young, black males were stealing stuff in the neighborhood and this one wasn't "getting away". moo

 

[HiHater]

Well if Trayvon was STANDING HIS GROUND then they wouldn't have charged Trayvon either. I am not sure what we are discussing here. Based on this law, it looks to me like anyone can kill anyone and claim self-defense. FL passed this law that is so broad and covers so many possibilities and this is the consequence (and clearly I am not the only one to notice that). In this case to charge/convict GZ prosecution would need a witness contradicting what he told police-and they don't have that as far as I can tell. Witnesses don't know who was screaming, or attacked whom first.

We are discussing the law, and the MURDER of Trayvon Martin. :what:

That law centers, for me, centers on the duty to retreat. Meaning if you are approached, you have no obligation to run. How does that work inversely? It DOESN'T.

Regardless of what the law says, it is applied on a case-by-case basis. In that aspect, it is not as broad as some would claim it to be. There is no doubt in my mind that a jury should be given this case, and they should decide whether or not George Zimmerman was "standing his ground." I will respect the jury's decision, but I think it's an insult to the entire justice system, to the Constitution, and to "we the people" to have the Sanford Police Department make that decision.

 

[Lovejac]

I have an idea, i'm a man, you are a woman. Basically, i can attack you, and if you try to resist my attack(i'm 6'2 205 btw) and fight me off, i can use lethal force and guess what... Self Defense!

And then folks on websleuths will dive into YOUR background... and not mine.

"liking" your post was not enough.

You just perfectly described how dangerous, in its current state, the Stand Your Ground Law is.

 

[MicciStella]

This article gives some info on how he came to be the watch captain.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/c...abitual-caller-to-2247073.html?printArticle=y

I just can't believe that anyone would allow someone like GZ to be neighborhood watchman... That just calls for trouble, and it's a matter of time until tragedy hits... Which did with poor Trayvon...

LE gotta got to stop GZ or it will get worse...

And yes my very own opinion only

Micci

 

[jjenny]

That law centers, for me, centers on the duty to retreat. Meaning if you are approached, you have no obligation to run. How does that work inversely? It DOESN'T.

...

What duty to retreat? The whole point of the law is that a person doesn't have duty to retreat. Trayvon didn't have an obligation to retreat and under that law they wouldn't have charged him. Of course it doesn't matter since he is dead.

 

[Lovejac]

Martin's death has stirred passions around the country, with people outraged that Zimmerman has not been arrested or charged.

Here's what outsiders might fail to realize: In Florida, the shooter only has to say these magic words to basically get a Get Out of Jail Free card: "I feared for my life...I felt I was in imminent danger, so I shot in self-defense."

This is what the Florida Legislature has wrought with the so-called Stand Your Ground Law, enacted last decade.

(snip)

http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/new...g/2012/03/trayvon_martin_death_shows_the.html

I wish Trayvon's case would stir some passion in some actors in Hollywood.

 

[HiHater]

That was the first thing that I thought of when I heard the comment about TM's hand in his waistband, that that particular comment was a CMA comment. My husband sticks his hand in his waistband every night after I feed him to loosen it off of his bulging gut. Maybe TM's pants were slipping. Maybe his underwear were. Maybe he just thought it looked cool. I don't know. But I do know that it's not against the law. He was killed because GZ thought young, black males were stealing stuff in the neighborhood and this one wasn't "getting away". moo

Indeed, there are a number of reasons a person would reach for or adjust their waistband. Maybe Trayvon had his iPhone and was reaching for it. Maybe the can of iced tea was weighing his pants down, and he needed to pull them up (I read somewhere it was in his pocket). Who knows?