GUILTY FL - FSU Law Professor Dan Markel Murdered by Hitmen #20

[Seattle1]

It sounds like they are alleging that Donna can't get Tallahassee defense Attorneys to take her case because of the bad media publicity they're claiming the family has had. That likely explains why she has a Miami attorney who does white-collar crimes. They will undoubtedly be looking to change venue on this.

I believe each co-defendant defense has tried to change venue including LR just before he became state witness and accepted a plea deal! CA attempted this on the eve of jury selection.

Seems to me that Rule 3.240. Change of Venue is very generous in the provisions for a change of venue on the ground that a fair and impartial trial cannot be had in the county where the case is pending for any reason other than the interest and prejudice of the trial judge, yet ALL previous defense Motions have failed.

Rule 3.240. Change of Venue

Rule 3.240. Change of Venue (a) Grounds for Motion. –The state or the defendant may move for a change of venue on the ground that a fair and impartial trial cannot be had in the county where…

floridacriminalprocedure.com

https://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2016/09/judge-denies-change-of-venure-in-trial-of-markels-alleged-hit-man-defense-seeks-testimony-of-other-p.html

 

[stamplewie]

I believe each co-defendant defense has tried to change venue including LR just before he became state witness and accepted a plea deal! CA attempted this on the eve of jury selection.

Seems to me that Rule 3.240. Change of Venue is very generous in the provisions for a change of venue on the ground that a fair and impartial trial cannot be had in the county where the case is pending for any reason other than the interest and prejudice of the trial judge, yet ALL previous defense Motions have failed.

Rule 3.240. Change of Venue

Rule 3.240. Change of Venue (a) Grounds for Motion. –The state or the defendant may move for a change of venue on the ground that a fair and impartial trial cannot be had in the county where…

floridacriminalprocedure.com

https://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2016/09/judge-denies-change-of-venure-in-trial-of-markels-alleged-hit-man-defense-seeks-testimony-of-other-p.html

Sure, the statute allows you to move for a change of venue on the basis that the defendant can't get a fair trial. But guess who rules on a change of venue? The trial judge sitting in Tallahassee. That's the point.

 

[minusfour]

Oh, wah, wah, poor Donna, it sounds like she has had a hard landing. Did she not consider that this might be the result of arranging a murder? Are the conditions such a surprise, given she has been speaking to CA for hours and hours each week?

OT-last year a retired lawyer from the UK, who was visiting family, lost a filling, and visited my practice. He told me that his working life had mostly been with drs and dentists- I got the impression that his services had been retained for them by a professional body. He said he did family law, medical malpractice, and criminal work for them. He said he had done some work with Harold Shipman. (I confess, I asked a lot of questions, poor guy couldn't get out the door) I don't think this would happen in Australia, if I wanted a divorce, I'd go to someone who practiced a lot of family law etc.

 

[amicuscurie]

It sounds like they are alleging that Donna can't get Tallahassee defense Attorneys to take her case because of the bad media publicity they're claiming the family has had. That likely explains why she has a Miami attorney who does white-collar crimes. They will undoubtedly be looking to change venue on this.

Infind it difficult to believe that Donna would actually want to hire a Tallahassee attorney.

 

[yazoost]

From what I've read of Dan Markel's jurisprudence, it seems like he would be:

1. In favor of better treatment of defendants being held pre-tiral.
2. Against victim impact statements.

If there are any of his professional colleagues or other crim-law experts here, please correct me if I've drawn the wrong conclusions.

 

[amicuscurie]

From what I've read of Dan Markel's jurisprudence, it seems like he would be:

1. In favor of better treatment of defendants being held pre-tiral.
2. Against victim impact statements.

If there are any of his professional colleagues or other crim-law experts here, please correct me if I've drawn the wrong conclusions.

You’re right about the victim impact statements, not sure about the other. But, if his parents want to make one, who are we to stop them on the grounds that Dan would have objected? We can‘t really know what he would have thought as to his own case, and they‘ve been through so much that it would be wrong not to allow them what they feel they need for some small measure of closure. It won’t matter anyway, because murder carries a mandatory life sentence in Florida. It is my understanding the Markels have asked to make a statement only as to the solicitation and conspiracy charges for Charlie, but, again, it won’t matter, because he is facing mandatory life for the murder charge.

 

[Tapeartree]

From what I've read of Dan Markel's jurisprudence, it seems like he would be:

1. In favor of better treatment of defendants being held pre-tiral.
2. Against victim impact statements.

If there are any of his professional colleagues or other crim-law experts here, please correct me if I've drawn the wrong conclusions.

He may have been an advocate of better treatment of defendants, but his parents have been left behind to deal with his brutal death. They have also had to endure several trials and no contact with their grandchildren. All by the family that paid to have him killed. I can't imagine that he wouldn't want them to say something about their loss, and the impact it has had on them. They deserve to be heard.

 

[yazoost]

I can't imagine that he wouldn't want them to say something about their loss, and the impact it has had on them. They deserve to be heard.

In no way do I wish to diminish the Markel's loss. I just find it somewhere between interesting and odd that they are participating in part of the process that Prof. Markel spent his professional career arguing against. He was adamant that criminal punishment was the prerogative of the state/the community, not the victim or the victim's family.

 

[clearskies1]

In no way do I wish to diminish the Markel's loss. I just find it somewhere between interesting and odd that they are participating in part of the process that Prof. Markel spent his professional career arguing against. He was adamant that criminal punishment was the prerogative of the state/the community, not the victim or the victim's family.

I totally understand what you're saying. Unfortunately, people sometimes ascribe negative connotations to factual statements. Thank you for reminding us about Dan Markel's views.

 

[cottonweaver]

In no way do I wish to diminish the Markel's loss. I just find it somewhere between interesting and odd that they are participating in part of the process that Prof. Markel spent his professional career arguing against. He was adamant that criminal punishment was the prerogative of the state/the community, not the victim or the victim's family.

I think it's very interesting. I don't know anything about his academic jurisprudence other than the basics eg. that he was a believer in retributive justice and anti DP.
As part of your research did you come across his view on mandatory sentencing?

 

[IQuestion]

The bottom line is: DA is not going to be happy until she is allowed to be in her multimillion dollar condo. And ya know what we always say in my house, "If Momma aint happy, aint no one gonna be happy."
This is not going to come as a surprise to anyone who has followed court cases. If DA got hurt in general population, then the atty would file a complaint. If DA refuses to eat because she does not like the food, the atty would file a complaint.
If the workers try to explain to DA she is incarcerated because of her actions, not theirs
...the atty would file a complaint
The prison uber drivers, who probably never transported a 73 year old female (who was already rail thin...on her own accord) immediately called paramedics to ensure the well-being of their passenger, should be lauded for their fortitude in calling for help, But no...the attorney files a complaint
DA was at home, living her life and talking (in person) and by phone to her relatives...but the little episode of trying to board a plane bound for Viet Nam (one-way no less) forced Leon County to intervene. ( Miami to Dubai is approximately 16 hours and another 7 hours from Dubai to Viet Nam.) The last thing one wants to hear on an airplane announcement: Is there a doctor on board?
****Only trying to point out there are always two sides to the same coin/complaint.)

 

[yazoost]

I think it's very interesting. I don't know anything about his academic jurisprudence other than the basics eg. that he was a believer in retributive justice and anti DP.
As part of your research did you come across his view on mandatory sentencing?

My ex-wife was a public defender. She and I talked about whether victims' views should matter. I was surprised to learn through this case that there was scholarship behind that concept. I didn't do much research after that.

 

[cottonweaver]

My ex-wife was a public defender. She and I talked about whether victims' views should matter. I was surprised to learn through this case that there was scholarship behind that concept. I didn't do much research after that.

I thought your first point was uncontroversial, just cause in principle un-convicted people shouldn't be treated as if they've been convicted imo

' 1. In favor of better treatment of defendants being held pre-trial.'

However, in Donna A's specific case, it's hard to know whether it's even true. (We've all seen examples of her being manipulative and deceitful)

 

[cottonweaver]

The bottom line is: DA is not going to be happy until she is allowed to be in her multimillion dollar condo. And ya know what we always say in my house, "If Momma aint happy, aint no one gonna be happy."
This is not going to come as a surprise to anyone who has followed court cases. If DA got hurt in general population, then the atty would file a complaint. If DA refuses to eat because she does not like the food, the atty would file a complaint.
If the workers try to explain to DA she is incarcerated because of her actions, not theirs
...the atty would file a complaint
The prison uber drivers, who probably never transported a 73 year old female (who was already rail thin...on her own accord) immediately called paramedics to ensure the well-being of their passenger, should be lauded for their fortitude in calling for help, But no...the attorney files a complaint
DA was at home, living her life and talking (in person) and by phone to her relatives...but the little episode of trying to board a plane bound for Viet Nam (one-way no less) forced Leon County to intervene. ( Miami to Dubai is approximately 16 hours and another 7 hours from Dubai to Viet Nam.) The last thing one wants to hear on an airplane announcement: Is there a doctor on board?
****Only trying to point out there are always two sides to the same coin/complaint.)

Exactly.
I'd thought the same . If she's moved to G-pop, she will be the first to complain ( It's not going to be a bed of roses, mixing with other inmates)

If she self harms or commits suicide, because she's in an environment with means/opportunity, Harvey will be ready to sue.

ETA - good point about the paramedic stop too

 

[yazoost]

I thought your first point was uncontroversial, just cause in principle un-convicted people shouldn't be treated as if they've been convicted imo


However, in Donna A's specific case, it's hard to know whether it's even true. (We've all seen examples of her being manipulative and deceitful)

My thought there is that he would not be in favor of any type of punitive treatment before a conviction. But I do think this is a much larger debate about prison/jail conditions.

 

[cottonweaver]

My thought there is that he would not be in favor of any type of punitive treatment before a conviction. But I do think this is a much larger debate about prison/jail conditions.

Problem is that the conditions on suicide watch in a protective unit are harsh. They could be interpreted as punitive (punishing conditions) by the person in the cell even though there's no intent to punish.

 

[yazoost]

Problem is that the conditions on suicide watch in a protective unit are harsh. They could be interpreted as punitive (punishing conditions) by the person in the cell even though there's no intent to punish.

There is no need that they be harsh. The US incarceration system has established harsh conditions as the norm. I ABSOLUTELY DON'T believe DA should get different treatment. But there is no reason her and similarly situated inmates can't be monitored and protected in a more humane manner.

 

[Zedzded]

There is no need that they be harsh. The US incarceration system has established harsh conditions as the norm. I ABSOLUTELY DON'T believe DA should get different treatment. But there is no reason her and similarly situated inmates can't be monitored and protected in a more humane manner.

THe US prison system seems close to some 3rd world countries, a lot of developing countries have much more humane facilities and conditions. But then I suppose it depends on how we're viewing the criminals - I guess some we want to rehabilitate, some we want to punish.

 

[cottonweaver]

There is no need that they be harsh. The US incarceration system has established harsh conditions as the norm. I ABSOLUTELY DON'T believe DA should get different treatment. But there is no reason her and similarly situated inmates can't be monitored and protected in a more humane manner.

I agree re incarceration conditions. There are also allegations in that motion which are serious and need investigating.

However, it seems she's complaining about conditions particular to being on suicide watch. Similar inmates on suicide watch will get the same treatment.

Some examples of stuff she's complaining about
no book/Bible
no cutlery
stripped-down cells

IDK how full their 'protective' unit is & IDK their staff/inmate ratios - for safe monitoring 24/7- but there will be practical implications flowing from the stats

 

[Seattle1]

IMO, it's no secret DA has long intended to perish before she's ever forced to face the evidence presented against her.

Thinking back on DA's choice of defender, I now realize her white collar defender M. Descalzo is mostly papering her file for the future Federal Civil Rights complaint and wrongful death suit. In other words, DA already knew Descalzo would not have to go to trial.

Also, funny how CA was in protective custody for more than a year in the same county jail and didn't raise issues of harsh conditions. I recall he complained of difficulty communicating with his legal counsel and viewing/listening to evidence (which was remedied with a personal media player). Perhaps next we will read by Descalzo that the area designated for female inmates in the Leon County Detention facility is not comparable....

MOO

Donna Adelson becoming ‘weaker and weaker’ under ‘inhumane’ treatment at Leon County Jail, attorney alleges

The motion alleges guards force the 73-year-old to sleep naked, eat with her hands and call her a “fancy white lady murderer” who does not have rights.

www.wctv.tv

Dec. 6, 2023 at 1:52 PM PST|Updated: 22 hours ago

The bombshell allegations are part of a motion filed Tuesday by her attorney, Marissel Descalzo. The document requests the court provide the Miami woman house arrest or force the jail to improve her conditions, release her from isolation and “place Donna in a unit where she can prepare for trial and speak to her family.” It offers another alternative, asking the court to consider issuing Adelson a “psychological evaluation” to place her in a different unit.

“Donna is becoming weaker and weaker every day.”
Donna Adelson's lawyer, Marissel Descalzo, in a motion filed Tuesday