FL - FSU Law Professor Dan Markel Murdered by Hitmen *3 guilty* #15

[Hiller]

Notwithstanding Kawass, are the usual assumptions about prison treatment of "snitches" applicable when you are trying to help your wife and kids, and the person your testifying against is a rich dentist and his family who are living large on the outside?

 

[Seattle1]

My opinion is that the state has more than enough to work with no matter what Katie and Charlie testify to. The prosecution has a proffer from KM and knows what her testimony is. From the opening statements we've heard that CA is going to try and present these payments as being part of a post-murder shakedown to some degree. Under any scenario it would necessarily mean that both KM and CA knew who murdered Dan and for 9 years hid that fact and many others from the authorities. This despicable behavior paints both of them in a poor light and makes both of them less than credible. KM swore to tell the truth and looked at a jury twice to say that she turned down an offer of immunity because she was innocent. That's all dust now and the jury is entitled to consider the motives and credibility of both KM with all her lies and CA's craven failure to speak truthfully over almost a decade. I personally don't think the state is worrying too much about how to deal with this. Their theory sure looks pretty solid based on all the evidence no matter what CA or KM try to spin.

I dunno... IMO, the state can only use KM to impeach CA's testimony and cannot call her to testify (as coached by the state) which would only promote KM committing perjury. In other words, I think KM owns her previous testimony, period. JMO

 

[Gypsy Road]

Notwithstanding Kawass, are the usual assumptions about prison treatment of "snitches" applicable when you are trying to help your wife and kids, and the person your testifying against is a rich dentist and his family who are living large on the outside?

Great question!

 

[amicuscurie]

BTW
AALegal Focus has been scouring through Prawfs Blog to look for any way that the assassins could have gleaned his schedule. There's no way anybody could have found out the day he was leaving. ( Compare that to Luis Rivera proffer interview I posted where Luis categorically states they'd been told he must be murdered today as he was leaving tomorrow)

That proffer interview is very long but I watched it all again. Another notable thing is the way Katie told them that the pay-off was coming from the lady. Very rare for Luis to mention Charlie as the hirer. This insulation had to have been part of Charlie & katie's explicit plan when communicating to the assassins

I’ve always believed Wendi told Donna everything about her life, and Donna knew Dan was going out of town the next day. Especially since he was going to visit his new girlfriend. I think that’s something she would’ve told her mother. Donna wouldn’t even have needed to ask Wendi Dan’s schedule, she could have just passed that info on to Charlie. I believe she was that involved in Wendi’s life. From the tone of her emails, she sounds very strongly identified with Wendi. When she’s suggesting arguments Wendi should make in favor of the relocation, she uses the first person, “My parents’ finances have suffered.” It was Donna’s Motion for Relocation, in reality. Wendi may have been more willing to accept that it would be denied and she could try again later. The urgency for this crime was all Donna.

 

[Gypsy Road]

Yes, I agree. I think that family shared everything with each other. I mean if Charlie is repeating to KM that Donna was having really bad diarrhea, I think it’s a family that shares a lot!

 

[amicuscurie]

Just caught WA's testimony. She is a tough as nails.
It's frustrating to me that she won't be charged, and don't get me started on those parents of hers ! moo

I think she kind of sounds like an ASMR recording, something about the precise enunciations on t‘s and c’s. But that’s just me. I get irritated easily by sounds.

At one point when she is reading from a court document, she notices that she’s going to have to say one of the kids’ names and she hesitates, and they tell her she doesn’t have to say it. Then later, she says one of the kids‘ names, no problem.

Also, didn’t she say at the police station that she told the hitman joke to the TV repair person on the day of the murder? On direct, Georgia asks her if she ever told that joke to anyone, and she denies it. That would have been a good time to impeach her with a copy of the transcript from her police interview. For some reason she didn’t do that. Either she forgot, or she doesn’t want to bring it up in this trial for some reason. Georgia does get her to admit that she told it to LaCasse and other people.

 

[Marysmith]

I’ve always believed Wendi told Donna everything about her life, and Donna knew Dan was going out of town the next day. Especially since he was going to visit his new girlfriend. I think that’s something she would’ve told her mother. Donna wouldn’t even have needed to ask Wendi Dan’s schedule, she could have just passed that info on to Charlie. I believe she was that involved in Wendi’s life. From the tone of her emails, she sounds very strongly identified with Wendi. When she’s suggesting arguments Wendi should make in favor of the relocation, she uses the first person, “My parents’ finances have suffered.” It was Donna’s Motion for Relocation, in reality. Wendi may have been more willing to accept that it would be denied and she could try again later. The urgency for this crime was all Donna.

Aside from a brutal murder, absolutely ridiculous that that would be a reason for the relocation!! She’s an adult. I don’t even understand why she needed her parents to help her with her childcare of children she has 50% of the time but that’s just my opinion.

 

[amicuscurie]

BTW
AALegal Focus has been scouring through Prawfs Blog to look for any way that the assassins could have gleaned his schedule. There's no way anybody could have found out the day he was leaving. ( Compare that to Luis Rivera proffer interview I posted where Luis categorically states they'd been told he must be murdered today as he was leaving tomorrow)

That proffer interview is very long but I watched it all again. Another notable thing is the way Katie told them that the pay-off was coming from the lady. Very rare for Luis to mention Charlie as the hirer. This insulation had to have been part of Charlie & katie's explicit plan when communicating to the assassins

I think they didn’t want Sig to know it was for the Dentist. Sig hated the Dentist and might not have done it if he had known. But it does also put in some insulation between CA and the killers. It leaves Wendi exposed, though. Why would CA do that? I have to say, to me while WA is testifying, ChArlie looks extremely sad and remorseful that his baby sister is being put through all this. It shows on his face.

 

[Gypsy Road]

I could feel Georgia’s utter frustration questioning Wendi. I love Georgia, but wanted her to have more fire, and impeach WA on several things. Maybe she later? WA hasn’t been released yet has she? She can be called back.

 

[Marysmith]

I think they didn’t want Sig to know it was for the Dentist. Sig hated the Dentist and might not have done it if he had known. But it does also put in some insulation between CA and the killers. It leaves Wendi exposed, though. Why would CA do that? I have to say, to me while WA is testifying, ChArlie looks extremely sad and remorseful that his baby sister is being put through all this. It shows on his face.

But do we really think WA didn’t know if the plan beforehand? He might feel bad that she had to testify and lie but IMO she’s the one who ok’d the plan - if she hadn’t have agreed it wouldn’t have happened, again IMO.

 

[clearskies1]

I think she kind of sounds like an ASMR recording, something about the precise enunciations on t‘s and c’s. But that’s just me. I get irritated easily by sounds.

At one point when she is reading from a court document, she notices that she’s going to have to say one of the kids’ names and she hesitates, and they tell her she doesn’t have to say it. Then later, she says one of the kids‘ names, no problem.

Also, didn’t she say at the police station that she told the hitman joke to the TV repair person on the day of the murder? On direct, Georgia asks her if she ever told that joke to anyone, and she denies it. That would have been a good time to impeach her with a copy of the transcript from her police interview. For some reason she didn’t do that. Either she forgot, or she doesn’t want to bring it up in this trial for some reason. Georgia does get her to admit that she told it to LaCasse and other people.

Yes, she did tell Isom that she told the tv repair guy the "joke" that morning. Regarding impeaching her on that, I know the defense made a point about how ridiculous it would be for Wendi to blurt out the "joke" first thing to cops if she was part of the family conspiracy. Wendi allegedly "blurting things out against her own self interest" (per Lacasse's testimony) is just a strange thing in this case. JMO.

ETA: I've heard several theories about Wendi talking about the joke, but when all is said and done I just can't wrap my brain around it.

 

[flay012995]

Katie did her best to keep Sigfredo from knowing that she was with Charlie, but she was mistaken. Sigfredo was already stalking her movements and even Rivera told us that he was picked up by Sigfredo on a truck just to observe Katie and Charlie having a dinner at a restaurant. He was pissed off and wanted to run them over through a truck but Rivera stopped him.

 

[Seattle1]

Also, didn’t she say at the police station that she told the hitman joke to the TV repair person on the day of the murder? On direct, Georgia asks her if she ever told that joke to anyone, and she denies it. That would have been a good time to impeach her with a copy of the transcript from her police interview. For some reason she didn’t do that. Either she forgot, or she doesn’t want to bring it up in this trial for some reason. Georgia does get her to admit that she told it to LaCasse and other people.

^^rsbm

I believe there's a difference here with JL because his consistent testimony is what he was told by WA, and where WA can be called to defend herself if necessary.

In the example of what WA may have said to the Geek Squad who never testified, I think the use or derivative use immunity protects what WA allegedly said to repairman from being impeached (it's also hearsay).

There were pretrial Motions about this where the court had to rule whether or not the State could use JL testimony to impeach WA.

In other words, I think the immunity granted WA explains why GC didn't challenge several bits we picked up on that were outright lies by WA compared to WA's previous testimony. JMO

 

[MTW2011]

Katie did her best to keep Sigfredo from knowing that she was with Charlie, but she was mistaken. Sigfredo was already stalking her movements and even Rivera told us that he was picked up by Sigfredo on a truck just to observe Katie and Charlie having a dinner at a restaurant. He was pissed off and wanted to run them over through a truck but Rivera stopped him.

I’ve found some of this, compared to what I think was his “I love you Katie” when being escorted in shackles at the end of his trial interesting. Katie was playing them both, and she knew- she said herself - that Sigfredo was jealous of CA. I’ve wondered how he’s felt since his conviction, if he still would support her if he could (I.E. if he’s called to testify and somehow avoids implicating Katie) or what. It’s clear from his letters to the Judge in his case that he was upset with his attorneys but it’s hard to tell how he feels about Katie. Katie also made a point on the stand to say she will always love him as he’s the father of their kid.

That’s why ASA Dugan’s cross of KM and questions of “who’s the middle person between CA and SG?” and KM trying to claim she doesn’t know it’s just some coincidence but she had nothing to do with the murder is bad for her, as she doesn’t have (well, had, at her trial) any other way to explain the connection other than being an ex gf & a baby momma. JMOO and all that.

 

[BearWatcher]

The testimony from Lacasse in the parking lot where she asks explicitly about his travel plans is very important in tying in Wendi to the case and planning of the murder. It sets up how important the timing of the murder and how Wendi was part of the planning.

 

[MTW2011]

^^rsbm

I believe there's a difference here with JL because his consistent testimony is what he was told by WA, and where WA can be called to defend herself if necessary.

In the example of what WA may have said to the Geek Squad who never testified, I think the use or derivative use immunity protects what WA allegedly said to repairman from being impeached (it's also hearsay).

There were pretrial Motions about this where the court had to rule whether or not the State could use JL testimony to impeach WA.

In other words, I think the immunity granted WA explains why GC didn't challenge several bits we picked up on that were outright lies by WA compared to WA's previous testimony. JMO

I still have the question on why GC would have ever offered WA immunity, even if limited, what did WA provide that 1) could only come from WA if she was given immunity and/or 2) could not have come from any other person, investigative technique, etc….and was so crucial to “get” that the immunity was offered in exchange for that info?

I’m still perplexed at that. I am just assuming those would be some of the stuff thought about when making an offer of immunity, especially like when you read Luis’ cooperation agreement; but I don’t know what Wendi could’ve offered that was so important to the case that they needed to give her something in order to get it. Especially when WA still seems to be denying & misrepresenting and downplaying her knowledge, role, etc. JMOO.

 

[flay012995]

I’ve found some of this, compared to what I think was his “I love you Katie” when being escorted in shackles at the end of his trial interesting. Katie was playing them both, and she knew- she said herself - that Sigfredo was jealous of CA. I’ve wondered how he’s felt since his conviction, if he still would support her if he could (I.E. if he’s called to testify and somehow avoids implicating Katie) or what. It’s clear from his letters to the Judge in his case that he was upset with his attorneys but it’s hard to tell how he feels about Katie. Katie also made a point on the stand to say she will always love him as he’s the father of their kid.

That’s why ASA Dugan’s cross of KM and questions of “who’s the middle person between CA and SG?” and KM trying to claim she doesn’t know it’s just some coincidence but she had nothing to do with the murder is bad for her, as she doesn’t have (well, had, at her trial) any other way to explain the connection other than being an ex gf & a baby momma. JMOO and all that.

Seems to me that Sigfredo is still obsessed to her, he even wrote a love letter to her while in prison (can't remember when but it was years back before Katie's conviction). No wonder why he chose to stay silent. Does he even know that Katie is already convicted? I wonder if he has access to that news.

Katie controls his life and even then, he chose to become a dog to their relationship. I remember that Rivera told us that Katie messed him up by the breakup and the cheating.

 

[BSBC]

Could someone take a stab at how the defense is going to explain why CA and DA didn't notify authorities after LR, SG, and KM were locked up? I'm genuinely curious. Also, what's the plausible explanation for not advising WA? Obviously, they have to come up with something. I'm fascinated to hear what you guys and your deviant minds would come up with if you had to invent a story that might convince a jury it raises reasonable doubt.

"Even after he's locked up, LR could send his Latin King buddies to kill CA if he went to the cops to tell them about the extortion scheme." Of course this doesn't explain why CA is telling the world about the extortion scheme now.

 

[Mrspratcher]

I’m really looking forward to RA’s testimony. IIRC, he hasn’t testified in the prior trials. What do you guys think he will have to say?

 

[flay012995]

"Even after he's locked up, LR could send his Latin King buddies to kill CA if he went to the cops to tell them about the extortion scheme." Of course this doesn't explain why CA is telling the world about the extortion scheme now.

So Latin Kings will be the subject of Rivera's cross examination? I wonder if it will be a repeat on the 1st trial where Garcia's attorney repeatedly mentioned Latin Kings several times. Rivera will not like it and he will be feisty once Latin Kings is brought up. He considers the gang a family to him.