FL - FSU Law Professor Dan Markel Murdered by Hitmen *4 Guilty* #21

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Ha! I’ve heard people on various shows questioning why Charlie isn’t ranting on these jail calls about “finding the real killer.” Have they forgotten that Charlie’s defense is that he KNOWS who the “real killers” are, and they’re currently doing time for this very crime? He claims he was EXTORTED by the “real killers,” remember? Voila, mystery solved! It would be absurd given that defense, for Charlie to now claim, a la OJ, that he was searching for whoever did this.

Small detail, but it bugs me when some of the YouTube commentators don’t think about this stuff. Aren’t they as obsessed by this case as we are?!

Again, in my opinion (and that of the jury, apparently), there is enough evidence against Charlie that you don’t need to look at stuff that doesn’t apply and claim it does, like why he’s not claiming to “search for the real killers.”
You’re right. I think folks are probably misspeaking, though, if they were talking about the real killers. Obviously, we all know who the real killer is. I guess they’re saying CA is pretending asking who are the real extortionists. Maybe they are actually referencing the OJ case just like I did In sarcasm. It’s the sarcasm of Charlie on a quest to see that the “real“ extortionists get justice just the way OJ supposedly is on a mission to make sure that the “real“ killer gets justice. My guess.

I do think that he is listening to the lawyers to some degree. Apparently, they did tell him don’t talk about katie, don’t talk about Sigfredo, or any of them, so that’s why he is obsessively focused on everything else it seems, aside from his ADD. He keeps repeating the state‘s argument to the jury over and over about Wendi, etc. You do have to wonder how much he actually is venting his true feelings under the guise of pretending that he’s repeating the state‘s argument. I think he absolutely is pissed that she went there after the murder.

I really wonder what folks think here on that issue. I would assume that Wendi had it all worked out with her family that she would come up with this whole ruse of going to the farthest liquor store to buy stuff for the party as an excuse to be able to drive by and see what was going on at that house to report back to them. I assume they all knew she was doing that. But wouldn’t it be interesting if she went rogue and decided that she couldn’t help herself, like Charlie said GC said, and thought the liquor story & lunch would suffice as to why. Maybe CA & DA never knew she was doing that? What do folks think on that?
 
Link to Rivera's proffer interview where he discusses all the things which spooked him or he saw as bad signs - the police tickets in Trip 1, the owl on trip 2, 'the lady'
------------
btw...

At 14m in the interview
Isom asks wtte but how did you know which car DM drove?
Luis: Sig told me, black Nissan 4 door no tints ( Details of car wasn't on 'the paper... just name, Dan's photo and his address ' )
Isom: Who told Sig what type of car Dan drove?
Luis : I don't know
etc etc
 
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Since CA has been decrying much of the evidence as singularly cosmic coincidences that should never amount to anything:
Giving large sums of money to KM and providing ongoing financial assistance via checks written by his mother.
TV gifts are cheaper than a hitman? It was just a joke and not an allegory for murder!
WA is a geographically challenged non-drinker who happened to drive by the murder scene within an hour after it occurred.
KM's "significant other" SigGar /aka Tuto just happens to be the man, arrested driving HA's old Lexus, charged and convicted of murdering your ex brother-in-law.
****And 30+ hours of other cosmic coincidences...haven't we heard them all? (That's a rhetorical question, btw)
So here are a few CA hasn't mentioned:
1.)LR took a picture of an owl and posted it on InstaG the day before the murder 2.) LR asserts "Tuto" was the shooter. 3.) WA dons a T-shirt with an owl on the front, the day of the murder (Hey, it's in the photos.) 4.) "Tuto" is the greek word for owl!!
How's that for cosmic coincidence? Shout out to Roberta Glass info!

www.owlpages.com › owls › articlesOwlish words, meanings & origins - The Owl Pages

Aug 4, 2015 · Tyto: A variation of the Greek word "tuto", meaning "owl".
“geographically challenged” LOL :)
 
You’re right. I think folks are probably misspeaking, though, if they were talking about the real killers. Obviously, we all know who the real killer is. I guess they’re saying CA is pretending asking who are the real extortionists. Maybe they are actually referencing the OJ case just like I did In sarcasm. It’s the sarcasm of Charlie on a quest to see that the “real“ extortionists get justice just the way OJ supposedly is on a mission to make sure that the “real“ killer gets justice. My guess.

I do think that he is listening to the lawyers to some degree. Apparently, they did tell him don’t talk about katie, don’t talk about Sigfredo, or any of them, so that’s why he is obsessively focused on everything else it seems, aside from his ADD. He keeps repeating the state‘s argument to the jury over and over about Wendi, etc. You do have to wonder how much he actually is venting his true feelings under the guise of pretending that he’s repeating the state‘s argument. I think he absolutely is pissed that she went there after the murder.

I really wonder what folks think here on that issue. I would assume that Wendi had it all worked out with her family that she would come up with this whole ruse of going to the farthest liquor store to buy stuff for the party as an excuse to be able to drive by and see what was going on at that house to report back to them. I assume they all knew she was doing that. But wouldn’t it be interesting if she went rogue and decided that she couldn’t help herself, like Charlie said GC said, and thought the liquor story & lunch would suffice as to why. Maybe CA & DA never knew she was doing that? What do folks think on that?
In my opinion there is a lot to suggest she may have gone rogue, particularly with these new calls. Of course, Charlie knows he’s being recorded, so he may be speaking for the listener. BUT- to me his anger and bafflement at Wendi seems genuine, without regard for the substance of what he is saying. He seems fixated on the drive-by and how bad it was for his case. The anger and fixation on it would make less sense if, hypothetically, he knew she was going to drive by and it was all part of the plan.
 
Rivera's decision to rent a green Prius

Forgot to add at 52minutes in the proffer interview - how Luis Rivera ended up with that car on Trip 2


TLDR - no input from Sig
( Thus no input from Wendi to Sig/Luis in order to frame Lacasse via the choice of car)
 
I do think that he is listening to the lawyers to some degree. Apparently, they did tell him don’t talk about katie, don’t talk about Sigfredo, or any of them, so that’s why he is obsessively focused on everything else it seems, aside from his ADD. He keeps repeating the state‘s argument to the jury over and over about Wendi, etc. You do have to wonder how much he actually is venting his true feelings under the guise of pretending that he’s repeating the state‘s argument. I think he absolutely is pissed that she went there after the murder.
Snipped just to make my reply shorter - on that one point in bold.

It's such a complex case I have forgotten or missed that.
So his lawyers have recently told him specifically not to talk about SG & KM on jail calls? Do you know if CA says this on one of the calls or am I mistaking what you mean?

( I am interested because Janis brings up KM in one call and I was struck by his reaction, although it may be another nothing-burger)
 
By contrast, with the owl, the alleged crime-related explanations some people cite for it to me make no sense, as I explain above. Also, criminals aren’t known to use t-shirt codes, or take pictures of wildlife. Indeed, if the owl had not been in that tree, the crime could still have occurred, and Wendi still might have worn that shirt. The cops did not ask her about her shirt that day, the state has never asked her about it, and if they didn’t find it suspicious, neither do I.
Snipped and Bolded By Me Above for Emphasis: "The cops did not ask about her shirt that day, the state has never asked about it, and they didn't find it suspicious".....my singular response is NOT YET!
I saw pic of WA and KM sunbathing on the beach, drinks in hand, two single Moms, two children each, going through recent break ups. KM often refers to Sigfredo/Tuto interchangeably. Perhaps the subject of why he is called/nicknamed Tuto came up. I know if I was hanging on the beach with someone who called their boyfriend "Tuto," I would ask why? If someone called their ex "Jibbers," I would ask why. (Remember my moniker is IQuestion, for the reason I am very curious and always probing.) If someone called CA "maestro," I would ask why and maestro isn't an English word either but I would research it and its origin, too.
People are given "nicknames" for a reason...we don't know why about until we ask/probe. (Maybe Sig/Tuto got his nickname because his light eyes, sapphire blue, reminded them of a barn owl's. Or he stays up late at night?) How can anyone be so sure WA didn't know, too? How many times have we heard how smart/articulate she is? (Too clever by half,imo.) And, just like the drive down Trescott, "she just couldn't help herself."
Once is an accident. Twice is a coincidence. Three times is evidence! There are no coincidences in this vein...trust me. If I can know it/find it, so can WA...even if only a subliminal choice of attire for that morning.
Just a gut feeling, ok?
 
Snipped and Bolded By Me Above for Emphasis: "The cops did not ask about her shirt that day, the state has never asked about it, and they didn't find it suspicious".....my singular response is NOT YET!
I saw pic of WA and KM sunbathing on the beach, drinks in hand, two single Moms, two children each, going through recent break ups. KM often refers to Sigfredo/Tuto interchangeably. Perhaps the subject of why he is called/nicknamed Tuto came up. I know if I was hanging on the beach with someone who called their boyfriend "Tuto," I would ask why? If someone called their ex "Jibbers," I would ask why. (Remember my moniker is IQuestion, for the reason I am very curious and always probing.) If someone called CA "maestro," I would ask why and maestro isn't an English word either but I would research it and its origin, too.
People are given "nicknames" for a reason...we don't know why about until we ask/probe. (Maybe Sig/Tuto got his nickname because his light eyes, sapphire blue, reminded them of a barn owl's. Or he stays up late at night?) How can anyone be so sure WA didn't know, too? How many times have we heard how smart/articulate she is? (Too clever by half,imo.) And, just like the drive down Trescott, "she just couldn't help herself."
Once is an accident. Twice is a coincidence. Three times is evidence! There are no coincidences in this vein...trust me. If I can know it/find it, so can WA...even if only a subliminal choice of attire for that morning.
Just a gut feeling, ok?
First of all, the word for owl in Spanish is búho, not Tuto, and I doubt Rivera is familiar with Greek. (Indeed, on the stand at Katie’s trial, Rivera didn’t even appear to know the word for Owl in English, calling it a Lion.)

Again, even assuming Wendi knew that one of the killers was nicknamed Tuto, (and there is no evidence that Katie OR Charlie even knew Rivera was one of the killers), and that she knew Tuto was a Greek derivation for owl, what was the purpose of the shirt? A shout-out?

Remember, the evidence is that she did not leave her home until after the murder was committed, so it could not have served as any kind of “signal” related to the planning or execution of the crime itself.

And even if it was some after-the-fact “shoutout,” (“thanks for a job well done”), how would Luis, or any of the alleged conspirators, have seen that she was wearing it? Did they check out her mugshot? How would they have known in advance there would BE a mugshot to check?

And, finally, even if you assume the shirt had some significance, which I don’t, how can it possibly be related in ANY way to Luis’s random sighting of an owl the night before the murder, outside the very hotel he was staying at?

It defies logic to imagine that anyone knew or planned for that owl to be there, for them to be there at the exact time the owl was (Uber Owls?), and for Luis to see it, photograph it, post the photo for a brief second so Wendi could see it, and then be told immediately by Katie to take it down, and THEN for Wendi to put on an owl shirt the next day.

And, even if you assume all that happened, which I don’t, why? What was the owl photo supposed to mean? That the killers were in town? That Wendi should put on her owl shirt and do a shout-out? Why? The evidence suggests that the fact that the killers were in town was known to Katie and Charlie, and most likely, (based on some of her actions such as texting Dan asking whether he would be in town,) Wendi, even prior to their ever setting out for Tallahassee.

Sometimes an owl is just an owl.
 
You’re right. I think folks are probably misspeaking, though, if they were talking about the real killers. Obviously, we all know who the real killer is. I guess they’re saying CA is pretending asking who are the real extortionists. Maybe they are actually referencing the OJ case just like I did In sarcasm. It’s the sarcasm of Charlie on a quest to see that the “real“ extortionists get justice just the way OJ supposedly is on a mission to make sure that the “real“ killer gets justice. My guess.

I do think that he is listening to the lawyers to some degree. Apparently, they did tell him don’t talk about katie, don’t talk about Sigfredo, or any of them, so that’s why he is obsessively focused on everything else it seems, aside from his ADD. He keeps repeating the state‘s argument to the jury over and over about Wendi, etc. You do have to wonder how much he actually is venting his true feelings under the guise of pretending that he’s repeating the state‘s argument. I think he absolutely is pissed that she went there after the murder.

I really wonder what folks think here on that issue. I would assume that Wendi had it all worked out with her family that she would come up with this whole ruse of going to the farthest liquor store to buy stuff for the party as an excuse to be able to drive by and see what was going on at that house to report back to them. I assume they all knew she was doing that. But wouldn’t it be interesting if she went rogue and decided that she couldn’t help herself, like Charlie said GC said, and thought the liquor story & lunch would suffice as to why. Maybe CA & DA never knew she was doing that? What do folks think on that?
BBMA I agree!!!....WA went rogue.
 
Surely it's obvious?

It's a tribute from a ornithologist who's also a scholar of Ancient Greek with etymology as a part-time hobby.

It was selected in advance to show to the world that she's a polymath with a niche sense of humour who likes to live dangerously
Case closed ;)
 
Surely it's obvious?

It's a tribute from a ornithologist who's also a scholar of Ancient Greek with etymology as a part-time hobby.

It was selected in advance to show to the world that she's a polymath with a niche sense of humour who likes to live dangerously
Case closed ;)
I mean…I GUESS a theory could be that she knew about either the nickname or the owl sighting and decided to put the shirt on just for her own amusement?

I like yours better.
 
In my opinion there is a lot to suggest she may have gone rogue, particularly with these new calls. Of course, Charlie knows he’s being recorded, so he may be speaking for the listener. BUT- to me his anger and bafflement at Wendi seems genuine, without regard for the substance of what he is saying. He seems fixated on the drive-by and how bad it was for his case. The anger and fixation on it would make less sense if, hypothetically, he knew she was going to drive by and it was all part of the plan.

BBMA I agree!!!....WA went rogue.
This is so interesting. I definitely can see it both ways, but I do agree with you both. It makes a lot more sense that she probably went rogue and that was not part of the plan. It certainly would explain him obsessing over it. Now, there is certainly the other possibility that his lawyer told him that the jury likely was very persuaded by WA going there at that time & to the farthest liquor store. That could easily account for him then fixating on it.

But that would really be beyond crazy if she did that on her own. It also would make sense with what JL said about her – that as calculating and constantly planning and playing close to the vest as she is, that she can be very impulsive. This would surely be one of the most impulsive things she's ever done! I wish we could've been flies on the wall to hear the conversation between Donna and Charlie after they found out that she went and drove there if that was not part of the original agreement between them. :eek:
 
Snipped just to make my reply shorter - on that one point in bold.

It's such a complex case I have forgotten or missed that.
So his lawyers have recently told him specifically not to talk about SG & KM on jail calls? Do you know if CA says this on one of the calls or am I mistaking what you mean?

( I am interested because Janis brings up KM in one call and I was struck by his reaction, although it may be another nothing-burger)
I heard that being discussed in the analysis of the tapes, etc. and maybe it might've been intimated that someone knew some inside info on this. Or, it may have simply been that it was deduced from listening to those tapes. I can't remember exactly. But I remember thinking of exactly what you just said – when he spoke to Janis, he didn't delve into what she wanted to say about katie. Also, in the conversations with Donna, I seem to recall one of them saying to the other one that he was not supposed to discuss any of those things. I absolutely think that came from DR. It certainly would make sense for his appeal that he not discuss what was their defense or the players in that defense.

So maybe there isn't as much to it that he didn't say over and over again how he was extorted on the second level, how katie and the other two did this, all those things we were criticizing him for not saying. Maybe there was actually a reason that he wasn't saying those things. It could very well be his lawyer told him not to discuss any of that. It does put a little bit of a different spin on the tapes that we heard of him after his conviction. It's still certainly doesn't make him seem less guilty, but it is interesting in this complex set of facts, as you said.
 
First of all, the word for owl in Spanish is búho, not Tuto, and I doubt Rivera is familiar with Greek. (Indeed, on the stand at Katie’s trial, Rivera didn’t even appear to know the word for Owl in English, calling it a Lion.)

Again, even assuming Wendi knew that one of the killers was nicknamed Tuto, (and there is no evidence that Katie OR Charlie even knew Rivera was one of the killers), and that she knew Tuto was a Greek derivation for owl, what was the purpose of the shirt? A shout-out?

Remember, the evidence is that she did not leave her home until after the murder was committed, so it could not have served as any kind of “signal” related to the planning or execution of the crime itself.

And even if it was some after-the-fact “shoutout,” (“thanks for a job well done”), how would Luis, or any of the alleged conspirators, have seen that she was wearing it? Did they check out her mugshot? How would they have known in advance there would BE a mugshot to check?

And, finally, even if you assume the shirt had some significance, which I don’t, how can it possibly be related in ANY way to Luis’s random sighting of an owl the night before the murder, outside the very hotel he was staying at?

It defies logic to imagine that anyone knew or planned for that owl to be there, for them to be there at the exact time the owl was (Uber Owls?), and for Luis to see it, photograph it, post the photo for a brief second so Wendi could see it, and then be told immediately by Katie to take it down, and THEN for Wendi to put on an owl shirt the next day.

And, even if you assume all that happened, which I don’t, why? What was the owl photo supposed to mean? That the killers were in town? That Wendi should put on her owl shirt and do a shout-out? Why? The evidence suggests that the fact that the killers were in town was known to Katie and Charlie, and most likely, (based on some of her actions such as texting Dan asking whether he would be in town,) Wendi, even prior to their ever setting out for Tallahassee.

Sometimes an owl is just an owl.
BBMA: And sometimes a broken TV is just a broken TV? I'll have to stick with my suspicions/intuitions because sometimes clear thinking logic just doesn't trump "a hunch." There are hundreds of species of birds in Eastern Florida...did he take pictures of any others?
Never trying to offend,so I'll move on.... but it does "ruffle my feathers!";);)
 
I mean…I GUESS a theory could be that she knew about either the nickname or the owl sighting and decided to put the shirt on just for her own amusement?

I like yours better.

On a more serious note.....

the Dulce Vita transcript. At 10m 50 sec

Charlie getting very confused on who Tuto and Tato were. He thinks Tuto has been incarcerated but it was actually Tato who's been incarcerated)

Screenshot 2023-12-30 at 19.15.09.png

That example should show why this whole issue is problematic re Wendi + 'Tuto' in 2014
 
I heard that being discussed in the analysis of the tapes, etc. and maybe it might've been intimated that someone knew some inside info on this. Or, it may have simply been that it was deduced from listening to those tapes. I can't remember exactly. But I remember thinking of exactly what you just said – when he spoke to Janis, he didn't delve into what she wanted to say about katie. Also, in the conversations with Donna, I seem to recall one of them saying to the other one that he was not supposed to discuss any of those things. I absolutely think that came from DR. It certainly would make sense for his appeal that he not discuss what was their defense or the players in that defense.

So maybe there isn't as much to it that he didn't say over and over again how he was extorted on the second level, how katie and the other two did this, all those things we were criticizing him for not saying. Maybe there was actually a reason that he wasn't saying those things. It could very well be his lawyer told him not to discuss any of that. It does put a little bit of a different spin on the tapes that we heard of him after his conviction. It's still certainly doesn't make him seem less guilty, but it is interesting in this complex set of facts, as you said.
Yep it's a weird segment. I could speculate two or three possible reasons fwiw but will post the call so that the Websleuths hive-mind can have a listen and see what they think about his reaction first.

Charlie & Janis, 7th November.

Around 45mins
Charlie had been very vocal and then he clams-up when Janis asks him:
Janis: can I ask you something then? like because obviously I didn't know anything but like with the whole Katie thing, like , you have to be livid....
big pause
Charlie: man... I can't

( Janis starts to apologise for asking, exclamations about Katie ' WTF!', lets him off the hook, lots of silence from Charlie. Zipped apart from a huge sigh of exasperation)


unrelated point from the clip - Does Brianna realise that Janis had plans to start a family with Charlie once he got out, as she says on the same call? B is very vocal on SM at the moment
 
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Yep it's a weird segment. I could speculate two or three possible reasons fwiw but will post the call so that the Websleuths hive-mind can have a listen and see what they think about his reaction first.

Charlie & Janis, 7th November.

Around 45mins
Charlie had been very vocal and then he clams-up when Janis asks him:
Janis: can I ask you something then? like because obviously I didn't know anything but like with the whole Katie thing, like , you have to be livid....
big pause
Charlie: man... I can't

( Janis starts to apologise for asking, exclamations about Katie ' WTF!', lets him off the hook, lots of silence from Charlie. Zipped apart from a huge sigh of exasperation)


unrelated point from the clip - Does Brianna realise that Janis had plans to start a family with Charlie once he got out, as she says on the same call? B is very vocal on SM at the moment
Good points. I wish I could remember where i heard that. Maybe they did surmise it from the tapes you're referring to. It does make sense.
 
Obsessed with this case ya think? We put on a movie that I had recorded about a month ago. The Lady Vanishes. 1938 Hitchcock. Near the beginning a hotel manager refers to a guest (played by Margaret Lockwood) as Miss Adelson. I quick looked up the cast. Her name was Henderson but I heard Adelson. lol
 
First of all, the word for owl in Spanish is búho, not Tuto, and I doubt Rivera is familiar with Greek. (Indeed, on the stand at Katie’s trial, Rivera didn’t even appear to know the word for Owl in English, calling it a Lion.)

Again, even assuming Wendi knew that one of the killers was nicknamed Tuto, (and there is no evidence that Katie OR Charlie even knew Rivera was one of the killers), and that she knew Tuto was a Greek derivation for owl, what was the purpose of the shirt? A shout-out?

Remember, the evidence is that she did not leave her home until after the murder was committed, so it could not have served as any kind of “signal” related to the planning or execution of the crime itself.

And even if it was some after-the-fact “shoutout,” (“thanks for a job well done”), how would Luis, or any of the alleged conspirators, have seen that she was wearing it? Did they check out her mugshot? How would they have known in advance there would BE a mugshot to check?

And, finally, even if you assume the shirt had some significance, which I don’t, how can it possibly be related in ANY way to Luis’s random sighting of an owl the night before the murder, outside the very hotel he was staying at?

It defies logic to imagine that anyone knew or planned for that owl to be there, for them to be there at the exact time the owl was (Uber Owls?), and for Luis to see it, photograph it, post the photo for a brief second so Wendi could see it, and then be told immediately by Katie to take it down, and THEN for Wendi to put on an owl shirt the next day.

And, even if you assume all that happened, which I don’t, why? What was the owl photo supposed to mean? That the killers were in town? That Wendi should put on her owl shirt and do a shout-out? Why? The evidence suggests that the fact that the killers were in town was known to Katie and Charlie, and most likely, (based on some of her actions such as texting Dan asking whether he would be in town,) Wendi, even prior to their ever setting out for Tallahassee.

Sometimes an owl is just an owl.
I vote for shoutout after the fact, like it's done, good job kinda thing and she's so clever because it's in code.
 
On a more serious note.....

the Dulce Vita transcript. At 10m 50 sec

Charlie getting very confused on who Tuto and Tato were. He thinks Tuto has been incarcerated but it was actually Tato who's been incarcerated)

View attachment 471042

That example should show why this whole issue is problematic re Wendi + 'Tuto' in 2014
Yes, it is my belief that Katie did not tell Charlie who was going to do the murder, and that even Katie did not know Sig took Rivera with him. Some of that I think based on her proffer, though, so I take it with a grain of salt. But to me it strains credulity that Charlie would have had any idea who Luis was, let alone that Wendi would. Luis refers to Charlie only as “the dentist.”
 
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