FL - Jennifer Kesse, 24, Orlando, 24 Jan 2006 - #11

[fridaybaker]

I hate to bring up old material here, but it's so difficult to go through so many old threads. When I envision this complex, and this is what I remember from those days driving by the mall and the huge residences going up around it as well as things I remember being said on these threads, we're talking about Jennifer living in a building with many empty units, with workers coming and going every day. There has been talk that many even slept in empty units. Workers going in and out of any place increases the likelihood of incidents, simply due to people who are unknown to the residents being around. If we look at the condo as being the place of the disappearance, of course we wonder -why didn't anyone hear her scream? Did someone surprise her at her car and push her in it and take off? Then I start thinking, well -there are other places she could have been surprised and simply pushed/drug into, such as an empty unit. Do we know if the either of the units adjacent to hers were unoccupied at the time? That would make me highly suspicious. Or, were there any units in the path from her unit to where she would have parked her car?

Here's an idea. Worker (or someone else who has seen her/knows her/has taken a fancy to her) knows that she leaves her unit fairly early in the a.m. There aren't many people around at that time. Jennifer leaves her unit, locking her door and putting her keys into her purse. She's just doing her thing she does every day, not really paying attention to much -thinking about the work ahead of her, etc. A door to a unit along the way is already open, with someone standing just out of eyesight. As he hears Jennifer approach, he steps just up the to edge of the doorway, making sure no one is around. As she walks by, somewhat preoccupied, he just grabs her and shuts the door. Period. Not really time to scream or to fight before the door is shut. Is this a plausible scenario? I know, I know -where's the proof that this happened? I'm just trying to work out what could have happened if it did happen at the condo (which, of course, we don't know for sure -just walking through it.)

Also regarding the condo, I know that police, obviously, did some research into the building. However, how much? Was any of it recorded somewhere, such as which units were being used by whom?

 

[JnRyan]

I hate to bring up old material here, but it's so difficult to go through so many old threads. When I envision this complex, and this is what I remember from those days driving by the mall and the huge residences going up around it as well as things I remember being said on these threads, we're talking about Jennifer living in a building with many empty units, with workers coming and going every day. There has been talk that many even slept in empty units. Workers going in and out of any place increases the likelihood of incidents, simply due to people who are unknown to the residents being around. If we look at the condo as being the place of the disappearance, of course we wonder -why didn't anyone hear her scream? Did someone surprise her at her car and push her in it and take off? Then I start thinking, well -there are other places she could have been surprised and simply pushed/drug into, such as an empty unit. Do we know if the either of the units adjacent to hers were unoccupied at the time? That would make me highly suspicious. Or, were there any units in the path from her unit to where she would have parked her car?

Here's an idea. Worker (or someone else who has seen her/knows her/has taken a fancy to her) knows that she leaves her unit fairly early in the a.m. There aren't many people around at that time. Jennifer leaves her unit, locking her door and putting her keys into her purse. She's just doing her thing she does every day, not really paying attention to much -thinking about the work ahead of her, etc. A door to a unit along the way is already open, with someone standing just out of eyesight. As he hears Jennifer approach, he steps just up the to edge of the doorway, making sure no one is around. As she walks by, somewhat preoccupied, he just grabs her and shuts the door. Period. Not really time to scream or to fight before the door is shut. Is this a plausible scenario? I know, I know -where's the proof that this happened? I'm just trying to work out what could have happened if it did happen at the condo (which, of course, we don't know for sure -just walking through it.)

Also regarding the condo, I know that police, obviously, did some research into the building. However, how much? Was any of it recorded somewhere, such as which units were being used by whom?

Plausible theory. If you follow the Jodi Huisentruit case where LE believe she was abducted at her car in front of her residence, neighbors heard a scream, her car key was broke off in the lock and some of her personal items were on the ground near the car. We've not heard anything like that in Jennifer's case. And unless LE is holding back there was no forensic evidence to indicate her car was used to abduct her such as in her trunk. (Of course, if the abductor(s) used another vehicle like a van why move her car? That's just going to be a possible place to leave trace evidence.) But if the condominiums were mostly vacant I suppose she could have screamed and no one heard it.

I wish I could find it in the old news articles or the Kesse family guestbook, but I remember reading only once that she had one neighbor nearby, but not on the same floor. If that is the case, you would think they would have heard something if it happened in her apartment. The abduction happening between her condo and her car is likely and I believe one of the criticisms of LE is that they did not check the empty units or at least not until sometime later. And if a unit is being renovated, you can cover up evidence with new carpet and paint.

If it happened in her apartment or at her car someone was very thorough at cleaning up. That would make the possibility of it happening in an empty unit a very plausible theory. But they would still have to get her out of the complex.

 

[Skully]

I am leaning towards someone that knew her, only because most of the cases here involving stranger kidnapping or killing, they seem to dump a body and it is usually found at some point. Strangers don't care if the body is found, just evidence. But loved ones, tend to hid the body, because it is connected to them, a stranger isn't connected to the person, so lots of times it is found. I do live in FL, so I do know that the elements and terrain are a huge factor in whether or not a body is found and how long it can be hidden, but with that said, they returned the car and not far away. This person knows the area, wanted it found in a drug area, pointing to this culture. These are just my thoughts, but co-workers, and ex anything should be looked at again. JMO

 

[fridaybaker]

Plausible theory. If you follow the Jodi Huisentruit case where LE believe she was abducted at her car in front of her residence, neighbors heard a scream, her car key was broke off in the lock and some of her personal items were on the ground near the car. We've not heard anything like that in Jennifer's case. And unless LE is holding back there was no forensic evidence to indicate her car was used to abduct her such as in her trunk. (Of course, if the abductor(s) used another vehicle like a van why move her car? That's just going to be a possible place to leave trace evidence.) But if the condominiums were mostly vacant I suppose she could have screamed and no one heard it.

I wish I could find it in the old news articles or the Kesse family guestbook, but I remember reading only once that she had one neighbor nearby, but not on the same floor. If that is the case, you would think they would have heard something if it happened in her apartment. The abduction happening between her condo and her car is likely and I believe one of the criticisms of LE is that they did not check the empty units or at least not until sometime later. And if a unit is being renovated, you can cover up evidence with new carpet and paint.

If it happened in her apartment or at her car someone was very thorough at cleaning up. That would make the possibility of it happening in an empty unit a very plausible theory. But they would still have to get her out of the complex.

Thanks for the info on the Jodi Huisentruit case, which is just frightening. I do think that an attack on her way to the car is possible but, like you said -why the car? It's difficult to believe that someone could use the car to move her and not leave any evidence, although I do have this question: If she were kidnapped leaving her apartment (around 7am I believe) could the car have been thoroughly "gone over" by the perpetrator and all evidence destroyed by noon? If so, wouldn't that also be evident to LE --i.e. no fingerprints at all, etc.?

 

[fridaybaker]

And another question, although I'm sure painfully redundant to regular readers here, so I apologize in advance: What is the general thought among LE regarding such a circumstance -perpetrator uses victim's car and returns it close to the crime?

 

[OldSteve]

And another question, although I'm sure painfully redundant to regular readers here, so I apologize in advance: What is the general thought among LE regarding such a circumstance -perpetrator uses victim's car and returns it close to the crime?

Yes, the car being used and returned - I'm thinking someone who worked in the apartments and did not have a car, yet knows how to drive... takes her car and has to bring it back close to where he works so he'll not be missed....

 

[thref23]

And another question, although I'm sure painfully redundant to regular readers here, so I apologize in advance: What is the general thought among LE regarding such a circumstance -perpetrator uses victim's car and returns it close to the crime?

Yes, the car being used and returned - I'm thinking someone who worked in the apartments and did not have a car, yet knows how to drive... takes her car and has to bring it back close to where he works so he'll not be missed....

fwiw, potentially similar MOs that I am aware of:

Tara Grinstead. Not much is known about what happened to her. But there were signs of a struggle in her home - yet she was taken from her home and if I am not mistaken investigators found that the driver's seat in her own car had been moved as if someone other than her had driven it last.

The abduction/murder of Juli Busken. Case is summarized here. Victim was abducted from the parking lot of her apartment complex after returning to it around 5 am. Suspect was seen driving her car with her in the passenger seat. Suspect returned the car to an apartment complex across the street from the victim's apartment complex. Convicted perp lived nearby but was not a neighbor, not sure whether he had his own car. Ironically, Jennifer went missing on approximately the same day that jury selection began in this trial.

Most recently, Ingrid Lyne. Evidence suggests that she was killed at her home. But the perp (JRC) took off in her car, placed her body parts in other peoples' recycling bins, and abandoned her car not that far from her home, presumably taking public transportation elsewhere. There is reason to believe that he may have planned to return to her house to clean up but did not have the time or energy or the opportunity to do so. Per court records and what not, the perp (JRC) was probably living in Miami from approximately 2001-2003, and thereafter his whereabouts are not known until March 2006 when he was back home in Washington. And he potentially bears resemblance to the POI on HOG surveillance video, so he could hypothetically be considered a suspect here.

Of course, it is not known with any certainty that Jennifer spent the night at her own apartment, or was abducted from her apartment complex.

 

[fridaybaker]

Yes, the car being used and returned - I'm thinking someone who worked in the apartments and did not have a car, yet knows how to drive... takes her car and has to bring it back close to where he works so he'll not be missed....

I've been thinking about this quite a bit recently. With the evidence/lack thereof, I think the highest likelihood is that Jennifer was attacked by a worker at the condo or another nearby building also under construction. Her mother seems to think it highly improbable that Jennifer would go out to mail the phone in the evening, and surely she could have just dropped it off on the way to work or actually at work. The last place Jennifer was known to be, via someone actually talking to her, was her condo. It seems she'd recently taken a shower and was likely surprised by the perpetrator in or around her condo, in my book. Considering that, and the fact that her vehicle was found only two blocks away, sure makes me think "day laborer". Here's another thought. I live in a city with a very high population of illegal immigrants and most of them (at least half, I'd say) don't own their own cars. They get rides to work from friends and relatives. It's a big part of that culture.

 

[JnRyan]

fwiw, potentially similar MOs that I am aware of:

Tara Grinstead. Not much is known about what happened to her. But there were signs of a struggle in her home - yet she was taken from her home and if I am not mistaken investigators found that the driver's seat in her own car had been moved as if someone other than her had driven it last.

The abduction/murder of Juli Busken. Case is summarized here. Victim was abducted from the parking lot of her apartment complex after returning to it around 5 am. Suspect was seen driving her car with her in the passenger seat. Suspect returned the car to an apartment complex across the street from the victim's apartment complex. Convicted perp lived nearby but was not a neighbor, not sure whether he had his own car. Ironically, Jennifer went missing on approximately the same day that jury selection began in this trial.

Most recently, Ingrid Lyne. Evidence suggests that she was killed at her home. But the perp (JRC) took off in her car, placed her body parts in other peoples' recycling bins, and abandoned her car not that far from her home, presumably taking public transportation elsewhere. There is reason to believe that he may have planned to return to her house to clean up but did not have the time or energy or the opportunity to do so. Per court records and what not, the perp (JRC) was probably living in Miami from approximately 2001-2003, and thereafter his whereabouts are not known until March 2006 when he was back home in Washington. And he potentially bears resemblance to the POI on HOG surveillance video, so he could hypothetically be considered a suspect here.

Of course, it is not known with any certainty that Jennifer spent the night at her own apartment, or was abducted from her apartment complex.

Good comparisons! Tara Grinstead's case. The signs of struggle in the home are subtle and LE missed them the first time through. I don't remember about her car seat being moved though. However, 2 possible POI in the case were either LE or former LE. So does that mean they would know evidence and how to clean a scene? In any event, nothing has been said by LE of forensic evidence in her car.

Julie Busken. Just read about the case. He was caught until years later, but he used her car and left evidence all over it. He apparently didn't make any attempt to clean it though and simply drove it back to an apartment complex across the street.

Ingrid Lyne. He used her car, but I can't see where LE said what evidence they found in it. They found Ingrid's body part in different recycle bins in the area. (Interesting in Wikipedia says other body parts were also found in recycle bins in that area, but LE has not been able to ID them as Ingrid's. This guy killed someone else? Someone else was doing this?) But the killer did leave evidence in her house.

2 of the 3 cases the killer was caught because they left evidence. The 3rd there is really no evidence that her car was used, but there really is not much evidence period.

I believe if the abductor used Jennifer's car there would be more evidence than what was found. Even in the Jodi Huisentruit case there was a palm print on her car. In Jennifer's case there is almost nothing so if they did use the car it doesn't sound like they put her in the trunk, but she might have rode up front like the Julie Busken case. It would appear - no blood or large amounts of body tissue found in the car - that she was unharmed in the car. Whatever happened to her seems to have happened somewhere else and outside of the car if they used her car. If someone cleaned this car they did a marvelous job of removing evidence.

 

[JnRyan]

The POI in this case pulled into the parking space at HOG, then took the time to back out and pull in again. Then they spent 30 seconds in the car before getting out. Then walked off like they belonged there to start with. I would've had a hard time acting that calm. This person either knew what they were doing or they planned this very well.

As far as being calm, that doesn't mean they've necessarily killed before. They may have been a thief or a burglar and applied some of the same techniques - calmly leaving the scene, wiping down the car, etc.

 

[fridaybaker]

The POI in this case pulled into the parking space at HOG, then took the time to back out and pull in again. Then they spent 30 seconds in the car before getting out. Then walked off like they belonged there to start with. I would've had a hard time acting that calm. This person either knew what they were doing or they planned this very well.

As far as being calm, that doesn't mean they've necessarily killed before. They may have been a thief or a burglar and applied some of the same techniques - calmly leaving the scene, wiping down the car, etc.

I'm not sure why everyone thinks the man in the video was calm. He wasn't looking all over the place, but if he's a controlled-type personality-wise, I think that maybe when adrenaline kicks in, he only gets more focused and more controlled. I did think he took long strides, which really seemed quite long for his height, to me. The long strides to me indicate that he is hurried. Also, we wouldn't see the perspiration or heightened pulse or such things associated with stress, on the video. Also, I've always thought the extra 30 seconds in the car was a quick "one last wipe down" on the steering wheel, and a check to see that anything overt wasn't left by him in the vehicle, etc. Obviously, if the car had been cleaned of evidence extensively, that would have been done earlier, but I do think the extra 30 seconds could be accounted for that way.

Regarding the two attempts to get the car in the parking space, I also think that could easily be explained if this is our perp: He'd want to make sure that the car isn't parked badly enough that someone calls security or notices it right away. Also, it says to me that he might not be familiar with the car.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Bootsctr]

I've been thinking about this quite a bit recently. With the evidence/lack thereof, I think the highest likelihood is that Jennifer was attacked by a worker at the condo or another nearby building also under construction. Her mother seems to think it highly improbable that Jennifer would go out to mail the phone in the evening, and surely she could have just dropped it off on the way to work or actually at work. The last place Jennifer was known to be, via someone actually talking to her, was her condo. It seems she'd recently taken a shower and was likely surprised by the perpetrator in or around her condo, in my book. Considering that, and the fact that her vehicle was found only two blocks away, sure makes me think "day laborer". Here's another thought. I live in a city with a very high population of illegal immigrants and most of them (at least half, I'd say) don't own their own cars. They get rides to work from friends and relatives. It's a big part of that culture.

A question? What phone was Jennifer going to mail? TYIA.

 

[fridaybaker]

In an earlier post, I wondered about LE keeping records of what they learned on the day/day after her disappearance in and around the complex. Obviously, I'd think they knocked on doors, interviewed residents as well as people who on/with the construction company, building management, etc. Did they keep those records? Here is another question, though: We keep talking about the clothing of the individual on the car parking video. Wouldn't one of the most obvious questions be: Were any of the workers at the construction site wearing the same thing or similar clothing? Does anyone know? Again, isn't that a particular point that LE would have checked?

 

[fridaybaker]

I think it was her brother's friend's cell phone. I believe her brother and some friends stayed at her condo while she was on vacation with her boyfriend. Remember, Jennifer had just returned from vacation, I believe the day before.

 

[Bootsctr]

Thank you for the information regarding the phone. I had forgotten about the brother and friends staying there while Jennifer was on vacation.

The person on the CCTV video looked like it could have been a painter with the white clothing. Probably did not look out of place with all the construction of the condos? I wonder how many days LE could have gone back to look at the same area footage to see who walked that route? Since humans are creatures of habit.

 

[fridaybaker]

Thank you for the information regarding the phone. I had forgotten about the brother and friends staying there while Jennifer was on vacation.

The person on the CCTV video looked like it could have been a painter with the white clothing. Probably did not look out of place with all the construction of the condos? I wonder how many days LE could have gone back to look at the same area footage to see who walked that route? Since humans are creatures of habit.

That's an interesting point as well: Did LE view footage around the areas from before she disappeared, rather than just in the particular time frame that they think she disappeared?

 

[Bootsctr]

That's an interesting point as well: Did LE view footage around the areas from before she disappeared, rather than just in the particular time frame that they think she disappeared?

Yes, exactly that. Thank you. I'm sure they did. There is just so little information. Ten years later just not a whole lot to add. Someone with definitive information might have been scared to come forward, say for instance a girlfriend. ID made it sound like some of the workers fled when the investigation turned toward them.

The BF said Jennifer's car seat had been moved, as mentioned above. I guess no height was given for the person seen on video. Very frustrating case.

 

[rd_jfc]

Nice for me to see some good questions and answers about Jennifer. Helps me get back up to speed.

I think the appearance of light colored clothing is extremely critical. While I have no way of knowing if the clothes are actually light, I was never able to ascertain the model of surveillance camera to test it out, and that was a long time ago when it'd actually be possible to get a hold of one, to me there is a critical statement made by the police spokesperson (who I believe is also the model they used to reenact the poi walking by the gate, I saw news video of her doing it). The spokeswoman, Jones I believe, said that there were difficulties because dark clothes showed up light in the camera. But then they said don't worry about the clothes, and that's where it has been left all these years.

Based on her statement I do not believe the clothes are actually white which has pointed many many comments toward a cook or painter, etc.

Obviously for anyone who has seen my poi blowups I believe the poi was wearing law enforcement gear and dressed as a bike security officer or such.

But that came accidentally from analyzing the pictures, I had no inkling that the clothes were not as they appeared. But Jones statement is unmistakeable.

 

[fridaybaker]

Nice for me to see some good questions and answers about Jennifer. Helps me get back up to speed.

I think the appearance of light colored clothing is extremely critical. While I have no way of knowing if the clothes are actually light, I was never able to ascertain the model of surveillance camera to test it out, and that was a long time ago when it'd actually be possible to get a hold of one, to me there is a critical statement made by the police spokesperson (who I believe is also the model they used to reenact the poi walking by the gate, I saw news video of her doing it). The spokeswoman, Jones I believe, said that there were difficulties because dark clothes showed up light in the camera. But then they said don't worry about the clothes, and that's where it has been left all these years.

Based on her statement I do not believe the clothes are actually white which has pointed many many comments toward a cook or painter, etc.

Obviously for anyone who has seen my poi blowups I believe the poi was wearing law enforcement gear and dressed as a bike security officer or such.

But that came accidentally from analyzing the pictures, I had no inkling that the clothes were not as they appeared. But Jones statement is unmistakeable.

rd_jfc -may we see your blowups (I apologize if they're here somewhere and I don't know it.) Thank you!

 

[Bootsctr]

I for one would love to see your POI blowups. Very interesting that the clothes appear white, but are not! Why am I remembering this person wearing a helmet of some type? That would that would fit with a bike security officer too?

Was the surveillance camera motion activated? I thought it was just odd how the person was captured on the film they showed on ID.