FL - Jennifer Kesse, 24, Orlando, 24 Jan 2006 - #12

[Markybug]

Please, snip away for brevity. You'll be doing all of us a favor.

I understood all of that, answered all my questions. I didn't know about the central recorder providing the timestamps, that's very helpful. So was your snip of transcript.

I have to just pause though at "why wasn't every angle covered with surveillance cameras?" I don't want to be too harsh on people providing useful information but that's unbelievably unrealistic. They have a camera covering the entrance and luckily where the car was parked, it covers walking mostly around the pool. The have another camera that's covering the pool gate that picks him up after he gets that far around the pool.

The question isn't what about the 20 second, the question is what about the, I don't know, the 30 some feet gap not covered? It's feet, not seconds. Thte fact that it took him 20 seconds to cover maybe less that 40 feet says he quit walking. For starters, you can toss out that ridiculous "walked away and never looked back" nonsense. We know he stopped and looked back when he got to the tree.

It appears that after he got around the pool and reasonably out of sight and disconnected from the car that he was checking if anyone was noticing. He did the same thing when he got past the pool gate to the tree. I just don't see why anyone would be surprised. It also completely eliminates some unknowing person parking the car with the mindset of a parking lot attendant. This guy was planting the car and didn't want to be connected to it. That's clear to me from the pauses he took walking away.

Very helpful, Truth. Thanks very much.

Thats a good point RD , re the POI not being a innocent party , parking the car only , but a much more involved individual , possibly the actual perpetrator?

 

[rd_jfc]

Thats a good point RD , re the POI not being a innocent party , parking the car only , but a much more involved individual , possibly the actual perpetrator?

I think so, Marky. I thought that looking back from the tree indicated it, but I think stopping for several seconds when he got around the pool from the car leaves no doubt imo. He was keeping a careful eye on whether anyone saw him before he left.

 

[rd_jfc]

Okay, thanks very much for that link to the two CAM videos stitched together.

I can see POI in CAM2 walking much better than years ago. Just a much better setup now and years of YouTube viewing since then so I can deal with videos better.

Obviously you can't see much but I was looking for equipment darkness on that white. I saw some darkness. I blew up a CAM2 snapshot from 13:00:01 and darkened it. And sure enough there's the shoulder patch I've been talking about for 11 years now.

I compared to law enforcement shoulder patches from image 1 on POI Blowups page, but the patch was blurred. It looked overlaid disproportional due to movement, and I only had a solid top of patch to compare with, but I was sure there was a shoulder patch.

With this full body outline we have a prominent shoulder patch shape. Below it I compare to Orange County Sheriff patch, a generic security uniform shirt, and the security company uniform located around where she visited on weekends.

http://www.justiceforchandra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5399


And with this and an earlier post about the hand and the markings on the shoulder, I'm now able to make some major simplifications in identifying the uniform.

As I noted in earlier post, look at shoulder patch shape next bar over from the hand. (The possible hand and even arm are floating and out of position due to movement). The shoulder patch shape is probably the traditionl LE / DoD bdge shape I highlighted from image 3 seen on the Security uniform shirt for example. That means there isn't a badge by that shape, which threw things off in identification, and that POI didn't turn completely around but only paused and turned his head to look back. The shape is his shoulder patch.

I have a lot of work to do to help people make sense of all this on the POI Blowups page.

rd

 

[Truth Prevails]

With respect, below is the last paragraph of a comment I snipped only to address this particular paragraph:​

look down the page for the small picture of a hand holding an X26. Look right above in image, over one bar and up one bar, and between two bars is what could be curled fingers of a hand gripping something. Note this is in the area of his shoulder and the markings on the shirt. Some of it may be from a shoulder insignia, some may be from front of shirt. The open lens capturinig movement really shifts things around, but it can give you an idea what might be on shirt. These are not random markings.

First, let me qualify my comment with the following: I accept your expertise in this field, rd—I simply have none.

Okay. With your indicators, I believe I am looking at the correct blow-up.

As much as I want to believe—when I compare what does appear to be fingers with the normal sized image—I simply cannot make myself accept that a hand could be in that position.

Also, I may be able to see the shading you refer to as an indication of a possible badge-type shape, but I think there could be an equal chance of it being the result of distortion.

Sometimes I see it; sometimes I don’t. So, I don’t trust it.

I stand firm with you on seeing a face, though. Unlike the fleeting badge shape, the face is constant for me; I never have trouble finding it. I see it plain enough that I trust it.

I see it. He turned there and looked back at Jenn’s vehicle.

It’s so tiny. It’s such poor quality. But his face was captured on camera at that spot. He did turn and look back. You have made me a believer in that.

Not to annoy anyone with the length of my comment, but just because I think images can help clarify: (Click to enlarge).

I added a possible line of sight.

With a screenshot from the video at this link: https://youtu.be/7pnHBqFOstY, I captured where in the video the POI was standing as his face was captured. (Circled in red by me).

 

[Truth Prevails]

Thats a good point RD , re the POI not being a innocent party , parking the car only , but a much more involved individual , possibly the actual perpetrator?

I think so, Marky. I thought that looking back from the tree indicated it, but I think stopping for several seconds when he got around the pool from the car leaves no doubt imo. He was keeping a careful eye on whether anyone saw him before he left.

So, a lone wolf? Or, his knowledgeable accomplice?

I wish we knew where and when the crime occurred--for a certainty.

If Jenn was abducted in the morning either in her condo; or in the hallway; or outside near her vehicle--these would all point to the lone wolf. (Acting fast--because he would not have had much time).

If Jenn was abducted in the evening at any of the above locations, we have to take into account the ping study indicating movement of the two cell phones. (Also, the location of their final event pings--which we don't have).

For me, this opens up the possibility of two abductors working jointly. Could they have taken Jenn--even say into the empty condo across the hall; did whatever unthinkable acts their evilness dictated and then split up? Could one stayed at the crime scene cleaning up, while the other took the cell phones and, using Jenn's vehicle, attempted to create a false trail?

Perhaps they had agreed on a time and place--for example, the HOG at 12 noon--where the POI that stayed at the crime scene would pick up the second POI at the gate past the pool at the HOG.

 

[rd_jfc]

The hand is the most iffy of everything in the images. I base nothing on that, it has nothing to offer.
However, having said that, you have to consider the hand and looks like an extended arm completely independent of the body. You have to think of a lens capturing input the entire duration between pictures, it is not a snapshot. So half a second ago an extended arm and hand gripping perhaps his weapon entered the picture and is walking and by end of capture his body is beyond where the arm was.

Can the camera store stuff like that? Possibly, that's what motion photography is (leaving lens open and photographing). But not to go back at end and look for detail like we have to do. But in the end it means nothing whether it's a hand or not. My point was I believe he had unholstered his weapon and was doing something with it and it's not in his holster.

The next bar over and just above the hand is a law enforcement shape, I believe to be from his shoulder patch. The picture I posted this morning of CAM2 enlarged and darkened shows the overall shoulder patch shape again. When I have time I will look at more CAM2 images.

The point here is law enforcement shapes do not appear randomly. Random noise in images does not take the shape of law enforcement patches. Look anywhere else in these blown up images and point out anywhere else there is a law enforcement shape, there isn't, but on the shoulder area there is, in multiple images, and it can't be dismissed because it isn't a Kodak moment. Yet it is and has been ignored for 11 years now. I'm at the point now where it will be karma if it is an Orange County Sheriff patch and they refused to investigate it.

 

[SpanishMossAntiques]

Sorry, I'm just not seeing anything close to being a LE patch, a holster, a weapon, etc. I think it's a case of Pareidolia (which is a type of apophenia; a more generalized term for seeing patterns in random data - some common examples are seeing a likeness of Jesus in the clouds or an image of a man on the surface of the moon).

 

[rd_jfc]

Sorry, I'm just not seeing anything close to being a LE patch, a holster, a weapon, etc. I think it's a case of Pareidolia (which is a type of apophenia; a more generalized term for seeing patterns in random data - some common examples are seeing a likeness of Jesus in the clouds or an image of a man on the surface of the moon).

I see. Well I wrote the scanner drivers for PC Paintbrush back in the 80's and have been "seeing" things for decades. If it was one image and a bunch of squinting I wouldn't be laying all this stuff out there for you but not one image and these are solid shapes. Actually there is no weapon, I've said that all along, even a post or two back.

But thanks for taking a look. Not seeing anything at all is dubious. Maybe you could describe what you see with some detail.

 

[Myserty64]

Sometimes I wonder if this case had a better chance of being solved without the POI video.
At the end of the day all the video tells us is that a certain individual parked the car at HOTG on a certain day at a certain time.

Twelves years of analysis has added nothing new nor advanced the investigation. This despite the outstanding efforts of certain individuals.

There is still debate over the gender of the POI.

Without the POI video old fashioned detective work could have solved this case.
We all know the original investigators were inept but many fresh eyes have looked at the case since then.

Despite all of this here we are today, none the wiser than in 2006.

 

[rd_jfc]

Sometimes I wonder if this case had a better chance of being solved without the POI video.
At the end of the day all the video tells us is that a certain individual parked the car at HOTG on a certain day at a certain time.

Twelves years of analysis has added nothing new nor advanced the investigation. This despite the outstanding efforts of certain individuals.

There is still debate over the gender of the POI.

Without the POI video old fashioned detective work could have solved this case.
We all know the original investigators were inept but many fresh eyes have looked at the case since then.

Despite all of this here we are today, none the wiser than in 2006.

Let's say that's the case. The car was reported to police on Thursday, it would have been unknown when it was parked but somebody probably would have seen it there at least a day. The gas gauge thing would still be used to say it wasn't driven far.

I think more possibility of investigating acquaintances of Jennifer would have taken place with no idea who drove her car away. But probably just as much suspicion of a maintenance worker as there has been. The POI was seen by police as a Latino and I thnk short circuited any investigation into acquaintances of Jennifer, so that was a negative.

 

[Truth Prevails]

Let's say that's the case. The car was reported to police on Thursday, it would have been unknown when it was parked but somebody probably would have seen it there at least a day. The gas gauge thing would still be used to say it wasn't driven far.

I think more possibility of investigating acquaintances of Jennifer would have taken place with no idea who drove her car away. But probably just as much suspicion of a maintenance worker as there has been. The POI was seen by police as a Latino and I thnk short circuited any investigation into acquaintances of Jennifer, so that was a negative.

Yep, I pretty much agree with your negatives.

One positive that I would grudgingly give it--if it wasn't for the video there would be a ton of people saying that she parked her own car at the HOG, took a bus, or maybe a skate board, to the airport and disappeared of her own freewill. Seriously, it would go on ad nauseam.

And this is probably wishful thinking on my part--but what if the missing 20 seconds or so actually contain a key to solving the case. Granted, it can't be that great because it's been 12 years with no suspects, but, it's hard to say for sure.

Or maybe the missing 20 seconds are actually missing because the POI was not in camera range, or the old camera had a mini break down before it kicked in again.

There's just no solid answers anywhere.

 

[Truth Prevails]

The hand is the most iffy of everything in the images. I base nothing on that, it has nothing to offer.
However, having said that, you have to consider the hand and looks like an extended arm completely independent of the body. You have to think of a lens capturing input the entire duration between pictures, it is not a snapshot. So half a second ago an extended arm and hand gripping perhaps his weapon entered the picture and is walking and by end of capture his body is beyond where the arm was.

I really appreciate this explanation.

Can the camera store stuff like that? Possibly, that's what motion photography is (leaving lens open and photographing). But not to go back at end and look for detail like we have to do. But in the end it means nothing whether it's a hand or not. My point was I believe he had unholstered his weapon and was doing something with it and it's not in his holster.

You don't suppose he could have left it in the bushes at a prearranged time and had someone pick it up so he could take the bus? Would he be allowed to carry in a holster if he used public transportation?

The next bar over and just above the hand is a law enforcement shape, I believe to be from his shoulder patch. The picture I posted this morning of CAM2 enlarged and darkened shows the overall shoulder patch shape again. When I have time I will look at more CAM2 images.

I can't make the shape out at all in the enlargements you posted this morning. In the darkest one, I can see a shape quite clearly--but it doesn't look like a badge. I'm not sure why that is.

The point here is law enforcement shapes do not appear randomly. Random noise in images does not take the shape of law enforcement patches. Look anywhere else in these blown up images and point out anywhere else there is a law enforcement shape, there isn't, but on the shoulder area there is, in multiple images, and it can't be dismissed because it isn't a Kodak moment. Yet it is and has been ignored for 11 years now. I'm at the point now where it will be karma if it is an Orange County Sheriff patch and they refused to investigate it.

You're right here, though. I don't see it at random everywhere in your images. For me, it's just that sometimes I can see it where you say it is, but other times, I can't. And I have to stay on it a long time, but I can tell it is the shoulder area.

I don't know if you will be interested in the following, but I screenshot it from Pt 2 of Greta's special on Jennifer. I find she has one of the clearest clips of the POI exiting Jenn's car. Now, with me, admittedly who knows what I'm seeing, but I find his head and shoulders clear the top of Jenn's car. We are not looking at a 5'3" to a 5'5" person.

So, for what it's worth;

 

[rd_jfc]

Yep, I pretty much agree with your negatives.

One positive that I would grudgingly give it--if it wasn't for the video there would be a ton of people saying that she parked her own car at the HOG, took a bus, or maybe a skate board, to the airport and disappeared of her own freewill. Seriously, it would go on ad nauseam.

And this is probably wishful thinking on my part--but what if the missing 20 seconds or so actually contain a key to solving the case. Granted, it can't be that great because it's been 12 years with no suspects, but, it's hard to say for sure.

Or maybe the missing 20 seconds are actually missing because the POI was not in camera range, or the old camera had a mini break down before it kicked in again.

There's just no solid answers anywhere.

I think we have to understand what we have first. There are some things I don't know the answers to on the cameras.

Let's start with the surveillance setup. Look at the pool building in your complex layout. I know that CAM3 was in an eave on the end of the building pointed at the pool entrance gate. I was there and looked up at where a camera would be positioned to see through the slats, there was news coverage of measuring distance from it, etc.

My thought was that the surveillance camera that captured the car driving in was centered on the pool building roof, but was a wider angle camera than the poll gate CAM3. If you swing an arc from where car was parked to same angle on other side, that is very, very wide and would cover practically to CAM3.

However, with footage stopping at about half the pool, if we assume that was the wide angle range of the camera then it was positioned primarily at lane between hot tub and pool. That I wouldn't expect, I would expect this camera to be covering the lane entrance from Texas. That would also cover the area that is missing but probably wouldn't have covered where Jennifer's car was parked.

But... my understanding was that there was another CAM on other end of building that would have focued on area where Jennifer's car was parked like CAM3 covered the pool gate. But as I understand it wasn't working.

It is possible that a compromise was made with let's call it CAM1 not working and CAM2 was swung around to cover some of that area, and consequently no longer covered the area btween mid pool and the gate.. I have no idea, but it seems a reasonable explanation for what's going on. Hopefully someone knows what the setup was.

Now for a general question that people with some experience with surveillance cameras may be able to explain. As I look at the CAM2 video the center of the picture follows the movement of the POI. The timestamps starts on right cut off and swivels across the screen to the left. The video has all the appearances of a motion detector camera swivelling to follow this person's movements.

Is this done by manually taking only a portion of a wide angle shot that includes the image of interest, the POI, and stringing those together instead of the same number of wide angle shots? How does the POI stay centered as the video progresses around the pool and the timestamp flow across the screen?

 

[rd_jfc]

You don't suppose he could have left it in the bushes at a prearranged time and had someone pick it up so he could take the bus? Would he be allowed to carry in a holster if he used public transportation?

That's actually an interesting thought. Or himself to come back by driving later and pick it up hidden in the hedge. He was doing something there for 20 seconds. Even if it was a taser and he was legally allowed to carry it, I would think it would draw attention he wouldn't want at that time.

I just have to think that he would need more than just show a gun to Jennifer and she would meekly allow herself to be abducted. I expect the point of carrying a weapon was to use it to disable. It's not one of those things you hear much about being used in abductions, but it certainly will disable you as police often do.

 

[rd_jfc]

I can't make the shape out at all in the enlargements you posted this morning. In the darkest one, I can see a shape quite clearly--but it doesn't look like a badge. I'm not sure why that is.

You're right here, though. I don't see it at random everywhere in your images. For me, it's just that sometimes I can see it where you say it is, but other times, I can't. And I have to stay on it a long time, but I can tell it is the shoulder area.

Thanks for taking a hard look, Truth. I started to take a look at the images to mention where I'm seeing the shoulder patches and I was amazed that I pretty much see all that I've been pointing out in the original images. Very clearly. I'm thinking that condition that guy said I have must be getting worse.

 

[rd_jfc]

I don't know if you will be interested in the following, but I screenshot it from Pt 2 of Greta's special on Jennifer. I find she has one of the clearest clips of the POI exiting Jenn's car. Now, with me, admittedly who knows what I'm seeing, but I find his head and shoulders clear the top of Jenn's car. We are not looking at a 5'3" to a 5'5" person.

So, for what it's worth;

This is really good work. I spent a very few hours last summer doing some work like this to gauge height next to car but I certainly didn't produce anything this clean. Still, here's what I concluded.

At 12:59:43 CAM2 time POI emerges from car. I'm going to lower my estimate of POI height based on height compared to car versus the palm tree. It looks more like me standing next to the car, I'm 5'7. I would lower POI height estimate to 5'7 to 5'8 from 5'9 to 5'11 now that I've seen POI standing next to car.

The whiteness of the clothing as seen in the video is disconcerting. Even though I know it's infrared doing it it's difficult to mentally picture in darker clothes. I did think of something that should be done. I have through the years asked for the make, model, and settings of the gate camera so that I could test what kind of clothes show up as what. Well clearly after eleven years no one wants to give out that info.

But something better just occurred to me. The police had to go through at least a day's worth of surveillance of both cameras to find the POI images. They would have seen several people walking by gate for example. They would have been able to see whether POI clothes were abnormally light compared to others, I mean most people wouldn't be wearing all white. And they would know whether POI looked like most other people or was one of very few to be in very light colored clothing.

I would certainly hope that the surveillance tapes that were reviewed to get these images weren't discarded. This could be done even now and have a very good determination if POI was wearing white clothes while others looked normal darker colors than all white.

I did some very rough resizing and contrast adjustments to make out the POI figure better. Standing next to the car the POI is a solid build, not thin, not heavy. There is dark shading around his middle. This is not well defined like a belt but just a general wider dark shading around the middle.

Head and dark above head are visible. He extends his right arm and the arm is all white just like rest of his clothes. To me it is clear he is wearing a long sleeved shirt. It looks like a band of darkness around his wrist area.

Next image that I stopped on was at 12:59:44. Here his back is much darker. It looks to me like he slung a backpack type device over his back from :43 to :44 (image seconds are not very accurate as we saw with gate POI images). I have noted that equipment on his back in image 2 of gate images and it looks like he did sling that over his back when he got out of the car.

Whether Greta saw any of this I don't know. Off to take my meds now.

 

[Cherry]

We need to concentrate on all known associates, everyone and anyone she had interactions w. The video is an issue that has caused tunnel vision. imo.

 

[wpaylor]

Okay, thanks very much for that link to the two CAM videos stitched together.

I can see POI in CAM2 walking much better than years ago. Just a much better setup now and years of YouTube viewing since then so I can deal with videos better.

Obviously you can't see much but I was looking for equipment darkness on that white. I saw some darkness. I blew up a CAM2 snapshot from 13:00:01 and darkened it. And sure enough there's the shoulder patch I've been talking about for 11 years now.

I compared to law enforcement shoulder patches from image 1 on POI Blowups page, but the patch was blurred. It looked overlaid disproportional due to movement, and I only had a solid top of patch to compare with, but I was sure there was a shoulder patch.

With this full body outline we have a prominent shoulder patch shape. Below it I compare to Orange County Sheriff patch, a generic security uniform shirt, and the security company uniform located around where she visited on weekends.

http://www.justiceforchandra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5399


And with this and an earlier post about the hand and the markings on the shoulder, I'm now able to make some major simplifications in identifying the uniform.

As I noted in earlier post, look at shoulder patch shape next bar over from the hand. (The possible hand and even arm are floating and out of position due to movement). The shoulder patch shape is probably the traditionl LE / DoD bdge shape I highlighted from image 3 seen on the Security uniform shirt for example. That means there isn't a badge by that shape, which threw things off in identification, and that POI didn't turn completely around but only paused and turned his head to look back. The shape is his shoulder patch.

I have a lot of work to do to help people make sense of all this on the POI Blowups page.

rd

A badge of some type would seem to indicate a shift worker, not a eight to five worker, for what it's worth.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[Markybug]

Has anyone done any work on the POI’s clothing colour? Ie changing it to a darker shade, as the white is throwing people ?

 

[Truth Prevails]

I think we have to understand what we have first. There are some things I don't know the answers to on the cameras.

Let's start with the surveillance setup. Look at the pool building in your complex layout. I know that CAM3 was in an eave on the end of the building pointed at the pool entrance gate. I was there and looked up at where a camera would be positioned to see through the slats, there was news coverage of measuring distance from it, etc.

My thought was that the surveillance camera that captured the car driving in was centered on the pool building roof, but was a wider angle camera than the poll gate CAM3. If you swing an arc from where car was parked to same angle on other side, that is very, very wide and would cover practically to CAM3.

However, with footage stopping at about half the pool, if we assume that was the wide angle range of the camera then it was positioned primarily at lane between hot tub and pool. That I wouldn't expect, I would expect this camera to be covering the lane entrance from Texas. That would also cover the area that is missing but probably wouldn't have covered where Jennifer's car was parked.

But... my understanding was that there was another CAM on other end of building that would have focued on area where Jennifer's car was parked like CAM3 covered the pool gate. But as I understand it wasn't working.

It is possible that a compromise was made with let's call it CAM1 not working and CAM2 was swung around to cover some of that area, and consequently no longer covered the area btween mid pool and the gate.. I have no idea, but it seems a reasonable explanation for what's going on. Hopefully someone knows what the setup was.

Going from my understanding of the above, I tried to mark the camera locations. I was wondering if you would confirm that I have them correctly marked? (And I'm only asking, if you don't have time to respond--no worries).

Now for a general question that people with some experience with surveillance cameras may be able to explain. As I look at the CAM2 video the center of the picture follows the movement of the POI. The timestamps starts on right cut off and swivels across the screen to the left. The video has all the appearances of a motion detector camera swivelling to follow this person's movements.

Is this done by manually taking only a portion of a wide angle shot that includes the image of interest, the POI, and stringing those together instead of the same number of wide angle shots? How does the POI stay centered as the video progresses around the pool and the timestamp flow across the screen?

Hope you get some answers.