FL - Michelle Mishcon, 53, & John Stevens, 59, brutally murdered, Tequesta, 15 Aug 2016 - #2

[glf]

The bus incident grew nat'l attn when "Monsters and Mysteries"featured a segment on their show a couple of years ago. However, at the time, it was believed he thought he was a wendigo.

 

[GeeEm]

I hope Austin, the Cannibal Eater, fries! :jail:

My thoughts and prayers are with the victims families during the holidays! rayer:

WE NEED JUSTICE FOR VICTIMS!! :rose: :yellow:

Thanks ~

jmo :moo:

 

[Caffeine]

This case is such an odd contrast to the Miami cannibal incident. I know police did what they could with Austin, but in comparison a lone officer approached the other attacker in Miami, stopped a brutal attack and saved the guys life.

Not saying that would have necessarily been possible with AH, but it's sad how this turned out...

 

[Curious Me]

His father said AH told him about being "part animal", and that AH was doing some weed and mushrooms recently.

see General Affidavit and Application for Search Warrant
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz4R63PGkEc

The tox results didn't show bath salts or flakka, but I don't want to disregard the fact that AH was also experimenting with drugs just before these crimes happened according to his father.

I also tend to believe he did abuse steroids in the past. I think some of the signs of his mental illness might be connected to his drug use. His behavior was making people around him uncomfortable, and yet family weren't considering mental illness enough. One red flag, IMO, was when he shot that bird in the neighbor's yard two weeks before. It was a perfect time to insist he see a mental health professional.

I've considered if it's possible that his father didn't want to call 911 or involve LE because he felt his son was acting weird due to being "on drugs" and wanted to keep his record clean.

I do think AH had gotten somewhat rebellious lately implying he was sick of being told what to do and how to act. His father did know he had taken hallucinogenic mushrooms recently and I think he might've been unsure if AH's problem was more about drugs rather than mental illness.


.

 

[Rayemonde]

Austin may actually have believed he was literally part animal, if he was delusional. Something like clinical lycanthropy.

It's not unusual for people with mental illness to take drugs or abuse alcohol, and that does make them more likely to become violent. But if you are schizophrenic and delusional when you take drugs, it's not the same as a stone cold lucid person choosing to dabble in drugs whilst being aware of the risks. Also, if the drugs caused the murder, they would have shown up on the toxicology test imo.

I think Austin has a good chance of being found not guilty by reason of insanity. In the other cases I looked at, however horrendous the murder if the mentally ill person did not premeditated it and made no attempt to cover it up afterwards, they were usually found not guilty. When they hid bodies and lied to police, they were much more likely to be found guilty, even if they were completely delusional at the time.

All just :moo:

 

[Rayemonde]

I found one very, very small study linking cannabis use with schizophrenia and cannibalism. Here is the abstract, you have to pay to read the whole article

The study of eight cases of cannibalism committed by schizophrenic patients revealed that the victims are often people from the family circle. The authors of this crime develop clinically mystical or persecution delusions. Especially, in five cases, acting out has been made under the influence of psychoactive substances including four cases of cannabis use. The nature of the possible link between cannabis use and cannibalism among schizophrenic patients is studied. The legal implications of this link are analyzed. More generally, the social safety cannabis use is questioned.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S092493381477837X


I believe that the current scientific thinking is that cannabis use can trigger psychosis in susceptible individuals (eg, people who already have a genetic predisposition towards schizophrenia). :moo:

 

[Curious Me]

Yes, I follow what you're saying Rayemonde. MOO, lots of drugs even some considered harmless can cause side effects in some people.

I'm still am on the fence about whether AH was completely unhinged mentally insane because he did say some things that make him sound aware of what he was doing and right from wrong.

One of the points I was trying to make in my post was that his father and family might have been unsure whether his odd behavior was from drugs or mental illness, and that it's possible his father was concerned about keeping his son's record clean and did not want to involve LE if it would go on his son's record that he was a drug user.

 

[monkeypants]

I can't imagine how I would feel if I was the children of the victims or the neighbor who tried to help knowing there will be no justice if he is considered insane. That must be an impossible pill to swallow. None if those people will EVER remotely be the same, not just from the losses but the shear gruesomeness of the attack, the fact that he was still alive while being eaten etc.

 

[glf]

When Kathy got killed at 19 by a because he had romantic intentions toward her, he was around 50, she told him they could be friends, and she actually seemed to be his friend, visiting him when he came to the bar, until one night she said goodbye standing by his PU. When she turned around, he blew a hole in the back of her neck. He ended up in the state hospital for a few years, and was released. He got off by saying he had flashbacks from Vietnam. (This was 1981). He was just a married pervert, as far as I am concerned, and shot Kathy because she wouldn't have an affair with him. And thru all of this, his wife stayed with him!
I never believed he had flashbacks, and if I had been the judge in charge of the case, he would STILL be in the state hospital. He took Kathy away from her not quite two yr old son, and her family got no justice at all.
I can certainly see that there's a 98% guarantee Austin had a mental breakdown, but if he is sentenced to the mental hospital, I hope there's a judge to see he stays there for more than two or three years. If not, this case will end up like Kathy's case.

 

[monkeypants]

When Kathy got killed at 19 by a because he had romantic intentions toward her, he was around 50, she told him they could be friends, and she actually seemed to be his friend, visiting him when he came to the bar, until one night she said goodbye standing by his PU. When she turned around, he blew a hole in the back of her neck. He ended up in the state hospital for a few years, and was released. He got off by saying he had flashbacks from Vietnam. (This was 1981). He was just a married pervert, as far as I am concerned, and shot Kathy because she wouldn't have an affair with him. And thru all of this, his wife stayed with him!
I never believed he had flashbacks, and if I had been the judge in charge of the case, he would STILL be in the state hospital. He took Kathy away from her not quite two yr old son, and her family got no justice at all.
I can certainly see that there's a 98% guarantee Austin had a mental breakdown, but if he is sentenced to the mental hospital, I hope there's a judge to see he stays there for more than two or three years. If not, this case will end up like Kathy's case.

I guess that's my point, if they got his medication set up and regulated and he gets his ducks in a row, who is to say he isn't out enjoying life and moving on...I guess I don't understand why anyone who gets an insanity defense can ever be released, especially if they need medication for control. Aren't they always a dose or two away from relapse/doing something violent again?

 

[monkeypants]

I guess that's my point, if they got his medication set up and regulated and he gets his ducks in a row, who is to say he isn't out enjoying life and moving on...I guess I don't understand why anyone who gets an insanity defense can ever be released, especially if they need medication for control. Aren't they always a dose or two away from relapse/doing something violent again?
Also the family members that basically say we knew he was mentally breaking and we have a strong family history of schizophrenia, why aren't they held culpable? Why aren't they responsible for not getting him a psychiatric hold?

 

[glf]

Yes, he is always at risk for another breakdown, even with meds. Saw enough of that working in nsg homes. When I worked in Okla, that particular home we had plenty of psych pts. Most of them were cool calm and collected as long as their meds were on time, and things stayed relatively the same on a day to day basis. Then there were a few who would flip out without much provocation.
I don't know if their families can be blamed for his lack of medical care, but we know for certain they were becoming more and more aware of his deteriorating mental condition, and should have acted much earlier. Now, its too late for most everybody involved in this situation, even Austin.

 

[CARIIS]

IMO, our justice system is still operating in the 50's and asylums. Much has been learned about mental illness. The old notion of knowing between right and wrong, has no relevance.

Many profoundly ill people can still determine right and wrong while voices are telling them things.

moo

 

[Curious Me]

It's very hard to accept the oops he was mentally insane, but he'll be fine on his meds in a few years. It's similar to not trusting a dog once it's bitten and ripped a human to death. The dog doesn't even get a trial. It gets put down.

His crimes were horrifying and atrocious. I'd expect him to be locked up somewhere and under supervision for the next 10-20 years, and certainly not be released without rigid psychological testing and monitored thereafter. MOO, at the moment.

What do you think is fair?

 

[Rayemonde]

People who are found not guilty due to insanity often end up spending more time locked in a psychiatric ward than they would have spent in prison if found guilty if murder. If he's found not guilty, they're not just going to release him right away.

A high percentage of people with schizophrenia don't respond to medication, or respond only partly to medication. We don't know yet if Austin will ever even become competent to stand trial. If he is found competent but then found not guilty and sent to a secure psychiatric hospital, he may never be deemed safe to be released.

If he does respond to medication and is ever seen as fit to be released from a psychiatric hospital, the release will be gradual and he will be regularly monitored by psychiatric professions for signs of relapse. He didn't go from a normal, healthy young man to a killer overnight - there were clear warning signs that his family noticed, and from his internet searches it's clear that he too suspected something was wrong with him. He will have a lot of counselling so he can learn to recognise the first subtle signs of relapse and ask for help before he becomes seriously ill. And mental health professionals will monitor him for any changes in behaviour that might signify a relapse, too.

I dobt think his parents are responsible for what he did... They may have noticed his strange behaviour and had fears about mental illness, but as extreme violence like this is so rare in mentally ill people, they could not have foreseen that this would happen. They may have known there was a history of schizophrenia in the family, but that doesn't make them experts in recognising the early warning signs, and I doubt anything like this had ever happened in the family before. Hindsight is 20/20 and I'm sure they'll be beating themselves up for the rest of their lives wondering if they could have prevented this tragedy, but they are victims in this case too as far as I'm concerned.

All just :moo:

 

[glf]

I'm sure mom and dad were aware sister locked herbedroom door at nite, concerned for herself over Austin's strange behavior. If I saw that happening in my home, even if mental illness wasn't at the top of the list, I think I would have made him an appt with the family doctor and asked for an antidepressant to help him sleep better. Of course, I take a mild antidepressant at bedtime myself and I would have known to watch for sleeping problems, as that can be hereditary.

 

[monkeypants]

It's very hard to accept the oops he was mentally insane, but he'll be fine on his meds in a few years. It's similar to not trusting a dog once it's bitten and ripped a human to death. The dog doesn't even get a trial. It gets put down.

His crimes were horrifying and atrocious. I'd expect him to be locked up somewhere and under supervision for the next 10-20 years, and certainly not be released without rigid psychological testing and monitored thereafter. MOO, at the moment.

What do you think is fair?

Geez that's a good question. I'm not sure, but in my mind getting on Meds after something so heinous and going on with life doesn't seem to be my answer. But I can see the argument that you can't then put him in jail if he was legally insane at the time. I think there has to be something in between maybe, not sure what that looks like but it's locked up like a mental facility for life to pay for the murder and insure it doesn't happen again. The problem is even after they are released they are essentially in control again, so stop taking meds and back to square one. So what happens if they commit a crime again by not taking the meds? Still insane, so it's just a merry go round?

They need to be locked up for life, institutionalize them.

 

[glf]

I would think that if they are released and make a conscious decision to stop taking their meds, knowing full well what could happen, they should be made to stand trial if they commit another crime, and be locked up with common criminals. His breakdowns and impulses can be controlled for the most part, and it would be in his records going into prison he has to be kept on his medication. Prisons have a doctor, and/ or a nurse practioner on staff, as well as a full time nurse, so his scripts would be renewed on time. It is the responsibility of the prison staff to see his meds are given as prescribed. If anybody on staff was not giving him his meds as prescribed, they would be held accountable if problems arise.
I do not think anybody would want to be considered partially responsible for problems caused by them not doing their job.

 

[monkeypants]

I would think that if they are released and make a conscious decision to stop taking their meds, knowing full well what could happen, they should be made to stand trial if they commit another crime, and be locked up with common criminals. His breakdowns and impulses can be controlled for the most part, and it would be in his records going into prison he has to be kept on his medication. Prisons have a doctor, and/ or a nurse practioner on staff, as well as a full time nurse, so his scripts would be renewed on time. It is the responsibility of the prison staff to see his meds are given as prescribed. If anybody on staff was not giving him his meds as prescribed, they would be held accountable if problems arise.
I do not think anybody would want to be considered partially responsible for problems caused by them not doing their job.

But that's in prison. What if he goes into a psyche hospital for a few years and is deemed stable. No one will know he's off the meds until it's too late. Another family suffers a loss again?

 

[glf]

Yes, most of my post was about prison regs. I was explaining if he was ever released from hosp, and he made the decision to go off his meds, knowing what he is capable of if he were to have a breakdown, THEN, if he was to commit another crime, he should get the same treatment as other people get who break the law. The second time, he should not get off with a mental breakdown sentence to the hosp. He should get locked up with other criminals and not be given special treatment.
Even if it is necessary for him to return to the hosp, his sentence should read something like "six months in a psych hosp, followed by 25 yrs in state prison, to be served in real time, no good behavior early release.