FL FL - Michelle Parker, 33, Orlando, 17 Nov 2011 - #23

[Thor]

Florida has a Three Strikes law. Wouldn't even come up to a jury....a third felony conviction and the judge is required to impose the maximum sentence if the felon is convicted. Doesn't matter how long ago it happened or his age (as long as he was an adult at the time of the two previous felony convictions).

Three Strikes law would not be relevant to an hypothetical trial were Dale Smith was accused of murder in the person of one Michelle Parker. "Three Strikes law" refers to sentencing guidelines not to help establish guilt or innocence in a crime that is alleged but not yet proven, in other words during trial. Again, to introduce any prior criminal record a prosecutor must prove via evidentiary arguments that a connection does exist between the felonies alleged and the felony record that is to be introduced at trial for a jury to consider, otherwise the expected prejudicial nature of such evidence will outweigh their probative value. Usually judges do not allow prior convictions to be introduced a trial also because of the vastly subjective nature of such rulings which in turn give powerful arguments in appellate courts in favor of overturning criminal convictions because of the often enormous prejudicial consequences of such evidence. In other words is much easier to substantiate and argue the prejudicial value that it is the probative one of such evidence.

This is only my opinion and I'd be truly interested to hear the legal and/or statistical counter arguments on this subject, if any.

 

[What'sThatClue]

Three Strikes law would not be relevant to an hypothetical trial were Dale Smith was accused of murder in the person of one Michelle Parker. "Three Strikes law" refers to sentencing guidelines not to help establish guilt or innocence in a crime that is alleged but not yet proven. Again, to introduce any prior criminal record a prosecutor must prove via evidentiary arguments that a connection does exist between the felonies alleged and the felony record that is to be introduced at trial for a jury to consider, otherwise the expected prejudicial nature of such evidence will outweigh its probative value. Usually judges do not allow prior convictions to be introduced a trial also because of the vastly subjective nature of such rulings which in turn give powerful arguments in appellate courts in favor of overturning criminal convictions because of the often enormous prejudicial value of such evidence. In other words is much easier to substantiate and argue the prejudicial value that it is the probative one of such evidence.

IMO

Iirc, the jury has nothing to do with sentencing guidelines. The sentencing guidelines under Three Strikes is the law. The Judge must sentence a conviction in accordance with that law. The jury merely finds the defendant guilty or not guilty of the possible charges...example, 1st or 2nd degree murder, manslaughter, etc. Juries don't need to hear of prior convictions unless they come up during the trial in evidence or testimony (which might open a door for priors to be presented, depending on the Judge's ruling).
And while such evidence or testimony (if it's allowed into a trial) might help a jury to determine
guilt or innocence, juries do not decide on the sentence, only on the charges brought before them.

Not that all this is pertinent yet.

 

[Thor]

Iirc, the jury has nothing to do with sentencing guidelines. The sentencing guidelines under Three Strikes is the law. The Judge must sentence a conviction in accordance with that law. The jury merely finds the defendant guilty or not guilty of the possible charges...example, 1st or 2nd degree murder, manslaughter, etc. Juries don't need to hear of prior convictions unless they come up during the trial in evidence or testimony (which might open a door for priors to be presented, depending on the Judge's ruling).
And while such evidence or testimony (if it's allowed into a trial) might help a jury to determine
guilt or innocence, juries do not decide on the sentence, only on the charges brought before them.

Not that all this is pertinent yet.

I guess I misunderstood you here, but your right then, if Dale was to be convicted in an hypothetical trial it would be bad for him but come to think of it certainly not because of any "three strikes law" to be sure ... I mean a murder conviction and a criminal record that could be considered notwithstanding any particular sentencing guidelines is more then enough to possibly get him life in prison or even the death penalty down there in Fl. if tried and convicted.

 

[Kamille]

Respectfully snipped for space

I doubt the need for money was the sole, or even primary, motivation behind the PC suit--greed yes, need no. IMO, Dale was more about control, spite, and revenge than budget-minded.

And as such, this is your opinion. Which may differ from others. And opinion is pretty much all we can go on when speculating on information that we only have a fraction of. So we each have one. I can respect that.

Once again, there seems to be an unwillingness or inability to separate Dale's actions from his hobby. As though he wouldn't have treated her poorly had they been attending an antique show. As though it's the very engagement in this wretched, pathological sci-fi hobby which turns men into monsters. As though Dale would have been a perfectly swell human being if only he'd been interested in bird-watching instead of X-wings.

Not sure why we are expected to separate his actions both during his relationship with Michelle and on the day she disappeared from his hobby. What a person is interested in sometimes does define their actions. And we know that he was made to look like a fool in that PC episode on that day in question because of that hobby. Could have touched a nerve with him. Maybe he was angry at Michelle for the way it came off on television or at some of her expressions or comments that he did not see during the taping. Maybe the whole conversation turned to his hobby and just went south. Or maybe not. Either way it's up for consideration as to motive. I do not know of any information in the past 22 threads that indicates that he was either an antique collector or a bird watcher so I'm not sure why we would be considering how either of these hobbies would possibly factor into this crime or his personality in his relationship with Michelle?

Perhaps their relationship wasn't healthy. Perhaps since their relationship was unhealthy it wouldn't have mattered where they were, it was inevitable that they would have these fights.

Perhaps. Or perhaps they only fought about his behaviour surrounding his hobby. Excessive spending, excessive drinking, not spending quality time with Michelle and the children because his priority was hanging out at social functions with his 501st Legion friends. We don't know. So we can only speculate either way. Neither option is incorrect. There are no incorrect answers here. We're all trying to speculate as to motive and why something may have happened at the condo that day.

Not to mention...we all post on a crime website. I can't possibly be the only person who has ever had weird reactions when people find out...my DH thinks we all are the ones with the unhealthy hobby.

Hobbies are only unhealthy when they interfere with your obligations in your personal life. IMO only of course.

It's almost as though human perspective and experience impacts people and their actions.

Oh weird, check this out...woman arrested for attacking her husband with knitting needles...but but but how can that be??? http://http://www.azcentral.com/community/gilbert/articles/20120905gilbert-woman-arrested-knitting-needle-attack-husband-brk.html?nclick_check=1

Now I don't see where this story has anything to do with the case at hand here. Some might perceive this as a personal attack on another poster's hobby. I'm sure it wasn't intended to be. But you can see where some might assume this. It's all a matter of perception IMO.

My reply in bold.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

I think I can agree with most that you've said, however I think it is of no small significance that what you have pertinently mentioned here represent only one side of the story, which is IMO, the beginning, not the middle and surely not the end of a much more balanced narrative.

Let me explain that which is response to only few of your assertions and only insofar that it serves to represent my point:

" ... I'm not disparaging the fact that he is interested in this hobby, or that he may spend a large amount of money on it but we can look at what we know in regards to that ..."

Ok, what do we know in regard to your statement that is factual here, and I'm using the adjective factual only in so far that you've used the subject pronoun "we".

" ...DSJr was not always forthcoming with child support payments. This is documented on the Orange County Clerk site. Michelle had to go through hoops on more than one occasion to get support for the children"

True, but how many payments did he miss? What were the circumstances surrounding it? Did he make up those payments? Were there any disputes? How that compares to other similar circumstances with other parents? What is the relationship of it to Michelle's disappearance that can be used in a court of law? And I could go on ... ultimately, we know that whatever the issue might have been with the support payments that they were either not a factor or not enough of a factor to deny Dale custody of his children, as finding of facts by a a court of law, and that needs to be significant in it's own right.

" ... And lets not forget that this was the first and I believe only time that they went to one of these conventions together. And he left her there with no way home. So obviously the hobby was not healthy for the relationship ..."

Not so obvious, the relationship was not healthy to begin with regardless of the convention, usually fights between couples are not restricted to a particular location or activity, and we know factually that their relationship could be described as tumultuous long before and after after a particular conventions.

"... According to his statistics in 501st events attended, DSJr attended one charity event in five years ..."
" ... just wanted to make it clear so we don't confuse him with someone who is devoted to charitable work ..."

True but I haven't seen anyone here praise Dale personally for any philanthropic activities, on the other side of the coin, he did attend 1 such an event in 5 years, while there are lots of people who attended none in the same 5 years span, and that is what it is and nothing more then that.

"... DSJr is a three time convicted felon for assault and battery. The records are clear and available once again on the Orange County Clerk site ..."

True, but how severe is such a record among all possible felonies, does it make him a career criminal? [If so how? when did those felonies take place? How old was he at the time of those felonies? How long a time has passed since Dale has gotten in trouble with the law prior to this case? And most importantly, how does it relate directly to Michelle's disappearance? Something that a prosecution would have to establish with real evidence or such a record would not be admissible in court as being of no particular relevance to the felony alleged and quite possibly highly prejudicial to a jury.

" ... It's kind of unnerving to know that all these people, dressed up in costume, could be convicted felons ..."

True, I have the same concern on Halloween. Trick or Treat could be emotionally exhausting to me, no pun intended ... well ... may be just a little

" ...The PC episode that was aired the day she disappeared was based on an incident that occurred during a convention for this hobby. It may or may not be relevant but it is the reason why this hobby has been discussed so often in this case."

I simply disagree here.

All JMO

Fact: DSJr spent time and money on his dedication to the 501st Legion.

Fact: DSJr and Michelle had an argument during a social function at a 501st Legion convention in which an engagement ring was lost.

Fact: DSJr sued Michelle over the loss of the ring and the case was picked up by The People's Court and tried there.

Fact: Michelle was humiliated by the experience and mentioned it to no one while DSJr posted on his FB when the airing was so all his friends could watch or DVR it.

Fact: The episode aired on November 17, 2011.

Fact: DSJr and Michelle both looked foolish and were admonished by the judge. DSJr was teased about his hobby. Michelle made faces, DSJr made faces. They both made comments about each other at the end. None of which was seen by the other prior to the airing. Not by Michelle at all since it appears she did not watch it.

Fact: Michelle Parker drove up to DSJr's condo less than an hour after the episode aired and was never seen by anyone ever again.



So if we take out all the other stuff and just look at the facts surrounding his hobby and some of the issues and events regarding it, then you can see how it MAY tie in to motive here.

 

[Kamille]

But we don't see constant references to Dale's Deadbeat-dad status. It's like that isn't as bad as playing Star Wars.

(Speaking of such, I just got the new Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic game for my iPad. I'm a 39-year old female teacher with a Master's degree, but goodness it's fun! Geez, I'm such a loser!)

Not sure if you've been privy to the last 22 threads but believe me, DSJr's "deadbeat dad status" has been referenced many times.

 

[Thor]

Fact: DSJr spent time and money on his dedication to the 501st Legion.

Fact: DSJr and Michelle had an argument during a social function at a 501st Legion convention in which an engagement ring was lost.

Fact: DSJr sued Michelle over the loss of the ring and the case was picked up by The People's Court and tried there.

Fact: Michelle was humiliated by the experience and mentioned it to no one while DSJr posted on his FB when the airing was so all his friends could watch or DVR it.

Fact: The episode aired on November 17, 2011.

Fact: DSJr and Michelle both looked foolish and were admonished by the judge. DSJr was teased about his hobby. Michelle made faces, DSJr made faces. They both made comments about each other at the end. None of which was seen by the other prior to the airing. Not by Michelle at all since it appears she did not watch it.

Fact: Michelle Parker drove up to DSJr's condo less than an hour after the episode aired and was never seen by anyone ever again.



So if we take out all the other stuff and just look at the facts surrounding his hobby and some of the issues and events regarding it, then you can see how it MAY tie in to motive here.

Agreed, that might be a motive surely, not a very compelling one in my opinion, but a motive nevertheless. But I don't think there has been anyone on this board that would disagree with you on the possibility there, including me, yet the problem here has never been a shortage of possibilities, theories, opinions, speculations or whatever, there are threads upon threads upon threads of them here, just about everything is theoretically possible the problem is in proving it, finding the physical evidence to support them, which in terms of evidence can't simply be made up as you would the theory of your choice.

Dale will be tried and convicted (if actually guilty) only when he can be located very near or at Michelle's whereabouts in the minutes and hours following her initial arrival at the condo and her alleged departure from it, remember we only have Dale's assertion that was the exact sequence of events, one must break through that sequence, one must find evidence to the contrary or at least to cast a serious doubt over it ... one needs proof of the tangible kind not merely of the possible kind ... and then you have your case sealed and delivered, don't prove that and Dale walks. I have a much more detailed post from earlier dealing with this exact topic ...

IMO

 

[What'sThatClue]

Okay, I'm thinking that if Michelle and Dale got into an argument and Michelle was assaulted in some way, making Michelle disappear might have been preferable to allowing her to live and call LE because Dale was probably fully aware of the Three Strikes law. An assault conviction might have meant an automatic 5 years in prison or more. He'd spent time previously in military prison for assault and drugs, iirc. I can't remember how long he was in military prison but it's back here in the threads and easily googled.

Perhaps murder was preferable to Michelle filing charges and being subject to the Three Strikes law. If she were unconscious or incapacitated in some way from an assault it might be a simple thing to dump her, even alive (no forensic evidence), into any one of Florida's alligator infested waters, perhaps bound and gagged and/or weighted.

This is a major reason I keep visiting the Buck Lake/bridge area, among others, both online and off and driving between Dale's (former) condo and these areas, tracking times and routes, noting brush and bodies of water and bridges for possibilities. Michelle has gotta be out there somewhere! And I believe that someday she'll be found. NGU!

All JMO, of course.

 

[What'sThatClue]

Agreed, that might be a motive surely, not a very compelling one in my opinion, but a motive nevertheless. But I don't think there has been anyone on this board that would disagree with you on the possibility there, including me, yet the problem here has never been a shortage of possibilities, theories, opinions, speculations or whatever, there are threads upon threads upon threads of them here, just about everything is theoretically possible the problem is in proving it, finding the physical evidence to support them, which in terms of evidence can't simply be made up as you would the theory of your choice.

Dale will be tried and convicted (if actually guilty) only when he can be located very near or at Michelle's whereabouts in the minutes and hours following her initial arrival at the condo and her alleged departure from it, remember we only have Dale's assertion that was the exact sequence of events, one must break through that sequence, one must find evidence to the
contrary or at least to cast a serious doubt over it ... one needs proof of the tangible kind not merely of the possible kind ... and then you have your case sealed and delivered, don't prove that and Dale walks. I have a much more detailed post from earlier dealing with this exact topic ...
IMO

Why did you say her "alleged departure" and bold it? Do you not believe she ever departed the condo? Just wondering. TIA.

 

[Thor]

Okay, I'm thinking that if Michelle and Dale got into an argument and Michelle was assaulted in some way, making Michelle disappear might have been preferable to allowing her to live and call LE because Dale was probably fully aware of the Three Strikes law. An assault conviction might have meant an automatic 5 years in prison or more. He'd spent time previously in military prison for assault and drugs, iirc. I can't remember how long he was in military prison but it's back here in the threads and easily googled.

Perhaps murder was preferable to Michelle filing charges and being subject to the Three Strikes law. If she were unconscious or incapacitated in some way from an assault it might be a simple thing to dump her, even alive (no forensic evidence), into any one of Florida's alligator infested waters, perhaps bound and gagged and/or weighted.



This is a major reason I keep visiting the Buck Lake/bridge area, among others, both online and off and driving between Dale's (former) condo and these areas, tracking times and routes, noting brush and bodies of water and bridges for possibilities. Michelle has gotta be out there somewhere! And I believe that someday she'll be found. NGU!

All JMO, of course.

Has the Buck Lake/bridge area been searched?

 

[Thor]

Why did you say her "alleged departure" and bold it? Do you not believe she ever departed the condo? Just wondering. TIA.

It is alleged because we don't know it for a fact, we only have Dale's word for it and that's not good enough by a long shot, a suspect's assertion is meaningless although the burden of proof rests with the investigators to prove it false, and that's the key to convict him, not the body necessarily, but physical evidence to the contrary, a sequence of contradictory statements, an eyewitness recollection inconsistent with his statements, anything that can at least get the ball rolling ...

 

[What'sThatClue]

Has the Buck Lake/bridge area been searched?

Not sure. If it was searched by LE, I never heard about it. I'm just obsessed with the area because of the Buck Fuddy persona and the Buck Rd sign posted on FB long ago and I did report the area as a possibility to LE. And once you turn in a tip to LE you don't usually hear back.

All jmo, of course.

 

[Thor]

Why did you say her "alleged departure" and bold it? Do you not believe she ever departed the condo? Just wondering. TIA.

Now consider this ... Michelle and the kids arrive at the condo, we have a video showing the Hummer, but no video of her departing, the jury is not gonna like that, but they will not convict solely on that, she might have left after all and the video camera doesn't record every seconds of every minute of the front of Dale's condo, but still they're not gonna like that, it's human nature, people tend to fill what they don't know with something, so they're gonna be looking for that something, anything that puts a question mark on that sequence of events, that narrative, so you must find that one lie, that one inconsistency that it's going to start swaying a jury ...

 

[Thor]

Not sure. If it was searched by LE, I never heard about it. I'm just obsessed with the area because of the Buck Fuddy persona and the Buck Rd sign posted on FB long ago and I did report the area as a possibility to LE. And once you turn in a tip to LE you don't usually hear back.

All jmo, of course.

... but a lie cannot be a discrepancy, cannot be a question of simply a recollection of a time or place, that lie you're looking for is a direct contradiction, a one or the other but not both kind of a thing ... Dale gave 4 separate interviews to the police, what did he say? I'm all but sure other member of the family were interviewed as well, what did they say? We know the police characterized Dale as not cooperating at one point, so look at the first question he did not answer for clues because there, if guilty, it's your lie, your contradiction, your focus point that breaks his narrative ...

 

[flourish]

Not sure if you've been privy to the last 22 threads but believe me, DSJr's "deadbeat dad status" has been referenced many times.

Oh yeah, been here since day one, thread one, post one, although, true, I haven't read every post in the 22 threads. I, among others, grew much too weary of the constant, incessant, insistent repeated snarkiness about his leisure activities, and stopped reading. Weird, though, that he ever I do check in it's still been "12-year old boy games" this and "grown man playing dress up" that.

 

[flourish]

My reply in bold.

MOO

Fair enough. I think you completely missed my point, but I've been as clear as I can.

The link I provided was in response to the repeated insistence that knitting is healthy, period no qualifiers. Funny there is concern that that would be considered rude, but all the generalized disparaging comments about the sci-fi activities isn't...

 

[flourish]

Fact: DSJr spent time and money on his dedication to the 501st Legion.

Fact: DSJr and Michelle had an argument during a social function at a 501st Legion convention in which an engagement ring was lost.

Fact: DSJr sued Michelle over the loss of the ring and the case was picked up by The People's Court and tried there.

Fact: Michelle was humiliated by the experience and mentioned it to no one while DSJr posted on his FB when the airing was so all his friends could watch or DVR it.

Fact: The episode aired on November 17, 2011.

Fact: DSJr and Michelle both looked foolish and were admonished by the judge. DSJr was teased about his hobby. Michelle made faces, DSJr made faces. They both made comments about each other at the end. None of which was seen by the other prior to the airing. Not by Michelle at all since it appears she did not watch it.

Fact: Michelle Parker drove up to DSJr's condo less than an hour after the episode aired and was never seen by anyone ever again.



So if we take out all the other stuff and just look at the facts surrounding his hobby and some of the issues and events regarding it, then you can see how it MAY tie in to motive here.

Again, there's the insistent assertion that Dale's hobby is the problem, as if Dale isn't a plain old #€!* on his own merits.


Fact: DSJr spent time and money, possibly in excess compared to his means.

Fact: DSJr and Michelle had an argument during a social function during which an engagement ring was lost.

Yes, they were at a convention, but this fight wasn't dependent on the convention in order to occur.

 

[Kamille]

Agreed, that might be a motive surely, not a very compelling one in my opinion, but a motive nevertheless. But I don't think there has been anyone on this board that would disagree with you on the possibility there, including me, yet the problem here has never been a shortage of possibilities, theories, opinions, speculations or whatever, there are threads upon threads upon threads of them here, just about everything is theoretically possible the problem is in proving it, finding the physical evidence to support them, which in terms of evidence can't simply be made up as you would the theory of your choice.

Dale will be tried and convicted (if actually guilty) only when he can be located very near or at Michelle's whereabouts in the minutes and hours following her initial arrival at the condo and her alleged departure from it, remember we only have Dale's assertion that was the exact sequence of events, one must break through that sequence, one must find evidence to the contrary or at least to cast a serious doubt over it ... one needs proof of the tangible kind not merely of the possible kind ... and then you have your case sealed and delivered, don't prove that and Dale walks. I have a much more detailed post from earlier dealing with this exact topic ...

IMO

Well yes but for the majority of posters on this board, who are not local and there "on the ground" so to speak, our only contribution to this and other cases can be theorizing and speculating hoping that perhaps someone who is close to the case or at least local to the area, may read something that sparks a thought about something or makes them remember something that they may have either seen or heard that might prompt a tip to LE to help solve the case.

And when LE actually names a prime suspect, which is EXTREMELY rare in these cases, it only stands to reason that most of the theories, motive and speculation will revolve around that person. It is my belief that people other than DSJr know something about the events of that evening, whether they realize it or not. I hope that someone either stumbles on this board and a lightbulb goes off, or someone else has a sudden attack of conscience and tells what they know. LE have a lot more evidence than we do. LE seem to believe that DSJr is primarily responsible for this crime. They don't appear to be looking at other alternatives any more. They have stated, I believe, that they just need one more piece of the puzzle to bring this all together.

So it is discouraging to consistently be told that ideas, speculation and opinion, based on over a year and half of researching and following this case are useless unless you can find tangible proof or evidence of your theories. We are not LE and therefore are not privy to everything that they know or have as evidence in this case. Nor are we detectives in the field capable of finding "proof". We have forwarded tips wherever possible based on our discussions and every speculation and theory has been based on exhaustive internet research. So I don't think we have a "problem" here at all.

MOO

 

[Thor]

Why did you say her "alleged departure" and bold it? Do you not believe she ever departed the condo? Just wondering. TIA.

... in sum, (but the possibilities are numerous from an investigative point of view) you have a good 5 hours at least from the time Michelle arrived at the condo and the Hummer being discovered, so you must find any evidence within that time span that contradicts Michelle's leaving the condo, anything will do that is in terms of real, tangible, physical evidence ... not a theory, not a hunch, not a character attack, nothing but one single piece of evidence that contradicts his narrative, because the strength of his defense lies in the simplicity of Michelle vanishing without a trace, you find that one trace, you bring it back to the condo and Dale is in a world of trouble.

 

[Kamille]

Again, there's the insistent assertion that Dale's hobby is the problem, as if Dale isn't a plain old #€!* on his own merits.


Fact: DSJr spent time and money, possibly in excess compared to his means.

Fact: DSJr and Michelle had an argument during a social function during which an engagement ring was lost.

Yes, they were at a convention, but this fight wasn't dependent on the convention in order to occur.

I did not state that his hobby is the "problem". I pointed out the facts surrounding the PC episode that coincidentally aired on the day of Michelle's disappearance. I have no idea if his hobby was causing him to neglect his personal obligations and therefore that may have triggered an argument on the day Michelle disappeared considering they would likely have talked about the PC episode. Although I did speculate as to the possibility based on court records of missed child support and the fact that the judge was mocking him about that hobby on the PC episode. Again, just speculation as to the motive for why it does not appear that Michelle ever left the condo on her own accord.

MOO