FL FL - Michelle Parker, 33, Orlando, 17 Nov 2011 - #23

[Jazzmaster]

It is without question that the courts SHOULD have looked MORE closely at Dale's history of violence:


Michelle Parker sought a restraining order from Dale in 2009. He was dishonorably discharged from the Marines in 2003 following a string of court martials, including military convictions for drug possession and domestic battery. I mean during a time of war, how does one get kicked out of the military? Yet IMO Dale parades around like he is an honorable marine.

Then we have Prior to his discharge from the Marines in 2003 he had a LONG string of felony arrests in our Orlando area:

1) Case 1990-CF-001851-A-O, SMITH, DALE WAYNE II, DOB 06/28/1971 Charge Date 02/20/1990 Circuit Criminal Divisions – Felony Criminal Felony
Closed BURGLARY

2). Case 1990-MM-004768-A-O, SMITH, DALE WAYNE, DOB 06/28/1971 Charge Date 03/26/1990 Orlando Adams, Martha C Misdemeanor
Closed TRESPASS SCHOOL GROUNDS REFUSE TO LEAVE

3). Case 1992-MM-003836-A-O, SMITH, DALE WAYNE, II DOB 06/28/1971 Charge Date 03/18/1992 Orlando Allen, Faye L Misdemeanor
Closed CONTROLLED SUBSTANCE OFFENSE

4). Case 1992-CF-006085-B-O, SMITH, DALE WAYNE DOB 06/28/1971 Charge Date 06/30/1992 Div 16 Schreiber, Margaret H Criminal Felony
Closed AGGRAVATED BATTERY

5). Case 1996-CF-013903-A-O, SMITH, DALE WAYNE DOB 06/28/1971 11/15/1996
Div 16 Schreiber, Margaret H Criminal Felony
Closed BATTERY

You can look these cases up online. This guy is DANGEROUS and I wouldn't trust him with a puppy let alone children. Yet he goes to all these Star Wars events where kids are present and is allowed to have custody of his children. I fear this won't end well (Josh Powell). I pray I am WRONG. We will NGU Michelle. Still looking for you! Where are you?

JMO

 

[Jazzmaster]

Ater reveiwing some of the earlier threads and ALL my notes on the case...One thing that has always struck me is how neither the PRIME suspect nor his family have EVER offered any help or assistance in finding Michelle:

“When I found out it was a family member of the ex-fiancé I absolutely – my heart just pounded out of my chest because, you know, to this day they haven’t even called me once to say ‘Yvonne, we’re so sorry for your loss, we wish we could help.’ Not one phone call from that family which tells me a lot about their character,” Yvonne said.

http://www.examiner.com/article/mic...wat-team-swarms-ex-s-home-names-him-a-suspect

It baffles my mind how a nice gal like Michelle could ever be attracted to SUCH a family of hooligans. JMO

 

[Jazzmaster]

"... Sr was following crime cases and took interest in the Josh Powell case..."

I know this gets repeated, what's the Michelle and most importantly where she might be right now.

I know there is a screenshot from his FB that along with other online activity from jr & Sr was sent to LE. I am not sure we can post screenshots or not but they do exist. If you go back upstream you will find more. It was posted on his FB on sept 15...just 2 months BEFORE Michelle disappeared. It was on a Thursday just like the day Michelle went missing. What Thursdays are slow in the roofing business? I guess they are if u are planning a murder...Jmo

 

[Thor]

It is without question that the courts SHOULD have looked MORE closely at Dale's history of violence:


Michelle Parker sought a restraining order from Dale in 2009. He was dishonorably discharged from the Marines in 2003 following a string of court martials, including military convictions for drug possession and domestic battery. I mean during a time of war, how does one get kicked out of the military? Yet IMO Dale parades around like he is an honorable marine.

Then we have Prior to his discharge from the Marines in 2003 he had a LONG string of felony arrests in our Orlando area:

1) Case 1990-CF-001851-A-O, SMITH, DALE WAYNE II, DOB 06/28/1971 Charge Date 02/20/1990 Circuit Criminal Divisions – Felony Criminal Felony
Closed BURGLARY

2). Case 1990-MM-004768-A-O, SMITH, DALE WAYNE, DOB 06/28/1971 Charge Date 03/26/1990 Orlando Adams, Martha C Misdemeanor
Closed TRESPASS SCHOOL GROUNDS REFUSE TO LEAVE

3). Case 1992-MM-003836-A-O, SMITH, DALE WAYNE, II DOB 06/28/1971 Charge Date 03/18/1992 Orlando Allen, Faye L Misdemeanor
Closed CONTROLLED SUBSTANCE OFFENSE

4). Case 1992-CF-006085-B-O, SMITH, DALE WAYNE DOB 06/28/1971 Charge Date 06/30/1992 Div 16 Schreiber, Margaret H Criminal Felony
Closed AGGRAVATED BATTERY

5). Case 1996-CF-013903-A-O, SMITH, DALE WAYNE DOB 06/28/1971 11/15/1996
Div 16 Schreiber, Margaret H Criminal Felony
Closed BATTERY

You can look these cases up online. This guy is DANGEROUS and I wouldn't trust him with a puppy let alone children. Yet he goes to all these Star Wars events where kids are present and is allowed to have custody of his children. I fear this won't end well (Josh Powell). I pray I am WRONG. We will NGU Michelle. Still looking for you! Where are you?

JMO

Jazz, I don't think anyone here is saying he doesn't have a criminal record, actually quite the contrary, his record gets repeated over and over again which is legitimate since the record is verifiable and publicly accessible, fair enough. However there are many other assertions you make about Dale that are not verifiable and are not publicly accessible, at least not as far as I know, and that is why I asked you to back up those claims of facts which I cannot find on the record such as, to name one, that Michelle had to "constantly" take Dale to court for child support payments which as far as I'm concerned might very well be true except that I cannot find evidence of it on the record.

Now, it's important to me that having an honest discussion about this or others matters, here or somewhere else, that I get the whole picture about an issue, I too have some experience in oratory strategy, and I understand how often people concentrate on what supports their own particular narrative and conveniently leave out what does not, therefore as far as I'm concerned, every time I hear something my question always is: "what's the rest of the story?", because you see, IMO there's always "the rest of the story" and it's productive to me to get to the truth or at least as much of the truth that one can possibly uncover regardless of personal believes, most notably my very own.

For example, if the issue is Dale's criminal record as you have correctly included in your post, I think I can sympathize with your point there, however it's also true that by that same record, the last recorded criminal complaint is dated as of the year 1996, and that is as per an allegation that was found not to be proven (correct me if I'm wrong), and where the last otherwise proven allegation probably dates back some 20 to 25 years earlier when Dale was a very young man, and in any case nothing to the scope and magnitude of the gravity of a charge of murder surely. It's also significant to note that nothing in the record you posted is proven to be directly related to Michelle's disappearance or that has been even alleged to be so by LE to this date.

Now, one can make up their own mind what they believe or not believe, suspect or not suspect, but I think it's important to this discussion as well as any other discussion, to give a full account of what is known and quantifiable and not simply give bits and pieces of an otherwise incomplete picture.

"I fear this won't end well (Josh Powell). I pray I am WRONG. We will NGU Michelle. Still looking for you! Where are you?"

IMO you're likely wrong or at least not factually correct. Again, there have been no allegations that Dale has been nothing but a caring and loving father to his children by anyone directly involved in this case. Even murders can be good fathers, history is full of such examples, and one's certainly not proven Dale's a murderer outside of one's personal opinions as they might happen to be in this case.

 

[Kamille]

How many payments did Dale fall behind? What were the circumstances? Did he pay what was owed to Michelle? How does any of that compare to similar circumstances by other non-custodial parents? How much did Dale pay of child's support? Why did a judge who had access to all evidence and heard all testimonies award Dale custody of the twins if he was such a bad and/or irresponsible father? And isn't it true that actually Dale had been characterized by Michelle's family as a good father? Isn't true that as of today Dale has a job and is supporting his children? Isn't it true that as of today there are no allegation of abuse toward the children? Isn't true that as of today there are no legal appeals to his custodial rights? What's the definition of a dead-beat Dad here?

All of the records regarding support and other legal issues between DSJr and Michelle have been discussed in great detail in other threads. Those records can be located here... http://www.myorangeclerk.com/enu/Pages/orange-county-clerk-of-court-home.aspx


08/18/2011
Notice of Need for Redirection

05/04/2011
Certified Notice of Delinquent Support

05/10/2010
Certified Notice of Delinquent Support

03/12/2010
Letter
regarding direct child support payments from

03/05/2010
Certified Notice of Delinquent Support

01/20/2010
Order for Income Deduction
Amended

01/15/2010
Notice of Hearing
1/20/2010 @ 8:30am

11/17/2009
Order for Income Deduction


Who would be able to appeal the decision regarding custodial rights? I believe that is the purpose behind YS's crusade for grandparent rights in situations such as this? As it stands now, there is no one other than the other custodial parent who could do this. And we all know why that is not possible....very convenient IMO.

And judges don't always get it right....

Sex offender awarded custody of 6-year-old girl

— A judge in Oklahoma City awarded custody of a child to 55-year-old Nicholas Elizondo, who is a registered sex offender from Bakersfield.

The child is Elizondo's 6-year-old daughter. The ruling left the girl's mother bewildered, she said.

"I just don't understand," said Lisa Knight, the child's mother.

Elizondo was convicted in 1995 of lewd or lascivious acts with a child under 14years of age.


http://www.bakersfieldnow.com/news/local/Sex-offender-awarded-custody-of-6-year-old-213445461.html

We have a thread on that case here at WS...

OK - RSO child molestation parent granted sole custody of six-year-old daughter - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[Thor]

Ater reveiwing some of the earlier threads and ALL my notes on the case...One thing that has always struck me is how neither the PRIME suspect nor his family have EVER offered any help or assistance in finding Michelle:

“When I found out it was a family member of the ex-fiancé I absolutely – my heart just pounded out of my chest because, you know, to this day they haven’t even called me once to say ‘Yvonne, we’re so sorry for your loss, we wish we could help.’ Not one phone call from that family which tells me a lot about their character,” Yvonne said.

http://www.examiner.com/article/mic...wat-team-swarms-ex-s-home-names-him-a-suspect

It baffles my mind how a nice gal like Michelle could ever be attracted to SUCH a family of hooligans. JMO

"...One thing that has always struck me is how neither the PRIME suspect nor his family have EVER offered any help or assistance in finding Michelle...

Let's try to correct the record here, If I remember correctly, despite repeated claims that first Dale gave no help whatsoever at first and then that it simply gave one interview, it turned out that he granted four different interviews with the police, that contrary to conflicting claims he did allow (at least initially) visitations with the GP, and that he did not try to prevent the children from also being interviewed by the police, which at least happened in two separate occasion (again if remember correctly). There is also no public record that I remember and/or I'm aware at this time that Dale's family was not cooperative with the police, actually we infer that they made statements to the police about Dale's whereabouts on and around Michelle's disappearance as they were much publicized by the media and Dale's attorney. There is also no characterization by anyone that the family never? "... EVER offered any help or assistance in finding Michelle..."

"Not one phone call from that family which tells me a lot about their character"

I wish we would know both accounts of this issue, IMO this two families were clearly not close, that probably being quite an understatement and that is said not an indication of guilt or malice.

"It baffles my mind how a nice gal like Michelle could ever be attracted to SUCH a family of hooligans"

I think that statement stands on it's own, requires no comment from me and anyone can draw their own respectful conclusions.

 

[Thor]

All of the records regarding support and other legal issues between DSJr and Michelle have been discussed in great detail in other threads. Those records can be located here... http://www.myorangeclerk.com/enu/Pages/orange-county-clerk-of-court-home.aspx


08/18/2011
Notice of Need for Redirection

05/04/2011
Certified Notice of Delinquent Support

05/10/2010
Certified Notice of Delinquent Support

03/12/2010
Letter
regarding direct child support payments from

03/05/2010
Certified Notice of Delinquent Support

01/20/2010
Order for Income Deduction
Amended

01/15/2010
Notice of Hearing
1/20/2010 @ 8:30am

11/17/2009
Order for Income Deduction


Who would be able to appeal the decision regarding custodial rights? I believe that is the purpose behind YS's crusade for grandparent rights in situations such as this? As it stands now, there is no one other than the other custodial parent who could do this. And we all know why that is not possible....very convenient IMO.

And judges don't always get it right....

Sex offender awarded custody of 6-year-old girl

— A judge in Oklahoma City awarded custody of a child to 55-year-old Nicholas Elizondo, who is a registered sex offender from Bakersfield.

The child is Elizondo's 6-year-old daughter. The ruling left the girl's mother bewildered, she said.

"I just don't understand," said Lisa Knight, the child's mother.

Elizondo was convicted in 1995 of lewd or lascivious acts with a child under 14years of age.


http://www.bakersfieldnow.com/news/local/Sex-offender-awarded-custody-of-6-year-old-213445461.html

We have a thread on that case here at WS...

OK - RSO child molestation parent granted sole custody of six-year-old daughter - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

"Who would be able to appeal the decision regarding custodial rights?"

The grandparents would since they may have a legal standing in the chain of custody assuming that the parents are incapacitated or otherwise disqualified from custodial rights.

Any lower court decision has an appellate mechanism. Appeals can be about anything as long as they are pertinent to the case and that legal grounds are established. Usually though additional testimony, witnesses and facts cannot be introduced in such proceeding. In addition the grandparents can petition the court or allege to the police that children are being mistreated, abused, neglected, or are in otherwise dangerous and unhealthy conditions, virtually anyone could in the latter, noticeably school officials, friends, health care provider, and otherwise anyone who have verifiable allegation pertinent to the welfare of these children. From there police investigation may take place, social workers can be dispatched to ascertain living conditions and so on. The idea being that children are not property and that custodial rights and obligations are not absolute and may be revoked or denied depending on the allegations proven as found by the courts.

" ... All of the records regarding support and other legal issues between DSJr and Michelle have been discussed in great detail in other threads ..."

Not insofar we're talking about the characterization of such records, specifically the allegation founded or unfounded that Dale is a dead-beat Dad.

So as to make this matter clear we are talking about a one or a couple late payments at best and a few at worst in a 3 4 year time period? Since it's not clear to me how many individuals cases of missed payments that record represent but only the number of injunctions as pertaining to missed payment(s) generally. Am I correct in that? Also do you or anyone know what were the circumstances of such missed payments, was there a dispute? Were they eventually paid? I think it's fair to know all the facts in this issue in order to arrive to an informed conclusion, yes?


"A judge in Oklahoma City awarded custody of a child to 55-year-old Nicholas Elizondo, who is a registered sex offender from Bakersfield"

IMO we can find anecdotal evidence for anything and no one suggested that judges and courts are infallible, only that a court decision has been entered in the record as finding that the best interest of the children here where in their father's custody. As I stated at the very top of this post there are appeal mechanisms available to the interested parties should they feel that there is a legal basis for such an appeal.

 

[Jazzmaster]

"...One thing that has always struck me is how neither the PRIME suspect nor his family have EVER offered any help or assistance in finding Michelle...

Let's try to correct the record here, If I remember correctly, despite repeated claims that first Dale gave no help whatsoever at first and then that it simply gave one interview, it turned out that he granted four different interviews with the police, that contrary to conflicting claims he did allow (at least initially) visitations with the GP, and that he did not try to prevent the children from also being interviewed by the police, which at least happened in two separate occasion (again if remember correctly). There is also no public record that I remember and/or I'm aware at this time that Dale's family was not cooperative with the police, actually we infer that they made statements to the police about Dale's whereabouts on and around Michelle's disappearance as they were much publicized by the media and Dale's attorney. There is also no characterization by anyone that the family never? "... EVER offered any help or assistance in finding Michelle..."

"Not one phone call from that family which tells me a lot about their character"

I wish we would know both accounts of this issue, IMO this two families were clearly not close, that probably being quite an understatement and that is said not an indication of guilt or malice.

"It baffles my mind how a nice gal like Michelle could ever be attracted to SUCH a family of hooligans"

I think that statement stands on it's own, requires no comment from me and anyone can draw their own respectful conclusions.

Other than Dale's snide "OMG the mother of my children is missing. My kids need their mother" comment on FB he has not told the truth not anything resembling it IMO...HENCE the reason he is STILL the ONE and ONLY suspect in this case despite dozens of crime investigators, officers, PIs, and other hired professionals who have looked at the case. All connected dots lead back to Dale. It's pretty simple like that IMO.

Just because Dale & co. are good at hiding evidence and a body doesn't make them innocent. Nor is it easy to prosecute without a body. Dale's family had to be subpoenaed and their house has to be raided with brutal force. That doesn't spell cooperation by any stretch of the imagination and that is FACT and not opinion. Additionally Dale refused a LDT. If he was truly innocent and had nothing to hide, he would have done what innocent people do...put his big boy pants on and answer the questions. Instead he lawyered up and has refused to cooperate since. JMO

 

[Thor]

Other than Dale's snide "OMG the mother of my children is missing. My kids need their mother" comment on FB he has not told the truth not anything resembling it IMO...HENCE the reason he is STILL the ONE and ONLY suspect in this case despite dozens of crime investigators, officers, PIs, and other hired professionals who have looked at the case. All connected dots lead back to Dale. It's pretty simple like that IMO.

Just because Dale & co. are good at hiding evidence and a body doesn't make them innocent. Nor is it easy to prosecute without a body. Dale's family had to be subpoenaed and their house has to be raided with brutal force. That doesn't spell cooperation by any stretch of the imagination and that is FACT and not opinion. Additionally Dale refused a LDT. If he was truly innocent and had nothing to hide, he would have done what innocent people do...put his big boy pants on and answer the questions. Instead he lawyered up and has refused to cooperate since. JMO

"... It's pretty simple like that"

LoL Jazz, if I ever learned anything in my otherwise foolish life is precisely that things are almost never simple. In this case in particular I don't think there can be a really a single soul that can regard this case as simple regardless of personal convictions. That is demonstrably so and not a matter of opinion, I mean Jazz ... two years have almost gone by and no charges have been filed against Dale let alone a conviction, by anyone standards this case is the antitheses of simple. Perhaps what's simple is the notion that we often feel that we are absolutely right and therefore those who don't agree with us are absolutely wrong, especially when we are so emotionally invested in it all, me I only recognize my own ignorance as the tipping point in the balance of what I think I know and what I don't really know. The latter being vastly bigger then the former.

"Dale's family had to be subpoenaed and their house has to be raided with brutal force. That doesn't spell cooperation by any stretch of the imagination and that is FACT and not opinion"

I respectfully disagree there, it's not a fact that they did not cooperate, they did ... at least to a technical point since cooperation may at time be a subjective characterization, you're contending that they needed to be forced in order to finally cooperate, by subpoena specifically, which is not anything I remember (I can be wrong but I take your word for it) but definitely subpoena could be squashed and testimony cannot be compelled (unless immunity is granted) if a witness is really intent on not making a statement.

"Additionally Dale refused a LDT. If he was truly innocent and had nothing to hide, he would have done what innocent people do...put his big boy pants on and answer the questions"

Dale gave 4 different interviews to the police the details of which have not been released to the public although it is only the characterization of the police that at least at some point Dale was not "cooperative" for whatever reason that was and regardless of , that being true or false, accurate or not. Also and truly regarding LDTs they are refused routinely and they are not accepted as evidence of anything, that being the real fact. I personally would not take a LDT test for the reasons just mentioned, although admittedly I hope I'd have my big boy pants on at the time so I wouldn't have to ask for a pair in order to prove behind any doubts that I could refuse to take a LDT and be a big boy (with pants to match) Just kidding Jazz ... well sort of.

Anyway, it's always interesting to exchange opinions with you Jazz, that much I must admit.

 

[Kamille]

"Who would be able to appeal the decision regarding custodial rights?"

The grandparents would since they may have a legal standing in the chain of custody assuming that the parents are incapacitated or otherwise disqualified from custodial rights.

Any lower court decision has an appellate mechanism. Appeals can be about anything as long as they are pertinent to the case and that legal grounds are established. Usually though additional testimony, witnesses and facts cannot be introduced in such proceeding. In addition the grandparents can petition the court or allege to the police that children are being mistreated, abused, neglected, or are in otherwise dangerous and unhealthy conditions, virtually anyone could in the latter, noticeably school officials, friends, health care provider, and otherwise anyone who have verifiable allegation pertinent to the welfare of these children. From there police investigation may take place, social workers can be dispatched to ascertain living conditions and so on. The idea being that children are not property and that custodial rights and obligations are not absolute and may be revoked or denied depending on the allegations proven as found by the courts.

" ... All of the records regarding support and other legal issues between DSJr and Michelle have been discussed in great detail in other threads ..."

Not insofar we're talking about the characterization of such records, specifically the allegation founded or unfounded that Dale is a dead-beat Dad.

So as to make this matter clear we are talking about a one or a couple late payments at best and a few at worst in a 3 4 year time period? Since it's not clear to me how many individuals cases of missed payments that record represent but only the number of injunctions as pertaining to missed payment(s) generally. Am I correct in that? Also do you or anyone know what were the circumstances of such missed payments, was there a dispute? Were they eventually paid? I think it's fair to know all the facts in this issue in order to arrive to an informed conclusion, yes?


"A judge in Oklahoma City awarded custody of a child to 55-year-old Nicholas Elizondo, who is a registered sex offender from Bakersfield"

IMO we can find anecdotal evidence for anything and no one suggested that judges and courts are infallible, only that a court decision has been entered in the record as finding that the best interest of the children here where in their father's custody. As I stated at the very top of this post there are appeal mechanisms available to the interested parties should they feel that there is a legal basis for such an appeal.

Do you have a link that states that the maternal grandparents in this case have the right to appeal this decision? If so, why would YS be going through so much to change legislation and enact a law for people in situations like hers?

I'm assuming that they are hoping that between the legislation or a win in a wrongful death civil suit that they may have some grounds with which to launch an appeal but can you show me that they could have just launched one anyway and didn't? :waitasec:

The three notices of delinquent support listed were within a less than one and a half year time frame and coincidentally were during the only time that the couple was broken up and not living together AFAIK. So it's not over a 3-4 year time period. They were only apart for a year or so before Michelle disappeared and there were 3 attempts at receiving support during that time frame.

MOO

 

[Thor]

Do you have a link that states that the maternal grandparents in this case have the right to appeal this decision? If so, why would YS be going through so much to change legislation and enact a law for people in situations like hers?

I'm assuming that they are hoping that between the legislation or a win in a wrongful death civil suit that they may have some grounds with which to launch an appeal but can you show me that they could have just launched one anyway and didn't? :waitasec:

The three notices of delinquent support listed were within a less than one year time frame and coincidentally were during the only time that the couple was broken up and not living together AFAIK. So it's not over a 3-4 year time period. They were only apart for a year or less before Michelle disappeared and there were 3 attempts at receiving support during that time frame.

MOO

"Do you have a link that states that the maternal grandparents in this case have the right to appeal this decision? "

No but although I'm not a lawyer I'm certain of it since I have studied enough law in my life, Although truth be told I have been wrong before in a legal sense and otherwise

Particularly here, if the grandparents were legal party to a custody hearing, and had petitioned the courts to grant them custody of the twins as it seems the case here, then any judgment denying them such petition could be theoretically appealed, assuming that there are legal grounds for it.

" ... If so, why would YS be going through so much to change legislation and enact a law for people in situations like hers?"

IMO the legislation you're probably referring to does not grant Grandparents automatic visitation rights of their grandchildren, I believe it's only intended to establish on behalf of grandparents some legal standing in a narrow set of specific circumstances, which would be quite time consuming to discuss here for the purpose of this post and besides I'm not familiar enough with that statute to be confident of an informed opinion.

However, the grandparents retain rights to petition the court for custody of their grandchildren even though such a legal standing it's not defined by statute but it may nevertheless be awarded to them by the court in case of credible allegation of abuse, neglect and such by the parents against the children. Ultimately, as I expressed in an earlier post, children are not property and the underlying legal framework for custody is the best interest of the child and where that very interest is defined and adjudicated by the court. In other words think of the court as sort of temporary legal guardian of the child where there is a dispute regarding the child in a varied set of circumstances including but not limited to custodial issues. It is the court that determines legal standing of the petitioning parties not necessarily a particular statute, it is the Court that determines the best interest of the child where there are disputes among parties having legal standing again not necessarily just a matter of a particular statutory concern, although as per court precedents, there are guidelines that govern specific adjudications, of course everything can be potential appealed, even all the way to the US supreme court should there be constitutional questions.

"I'm assuming that they are hoping that between the legislation or a win in a wrongful death civil suit ..."

I'd be totally shocked from a legal point of view if that civil suit would go forward under the circumstances as they exist today.

"... So it's not over a 3-4 year time period. They were only apart for a year or less before Michelle disappeared and there were 3 attempts at receiving support during that time frame ..."

Point taken and I'll try to verify later, however the larger point I had made here is valid, one two or even a few missed payments do not make someone a dead-beat parent IMO and it seems to me the whole thing is quite exaggerated for "dramatic purposes" although it'd be really pretentious and inappropriate for me to judge other people's motives, opinions and so on. Besides everyone is entitled to an opinion and one can argue up to a point and then it's best to agree to disagree.

IMO

 

[Jazzmaster]

"... It's pretty simple like that"

LoL Jazz, if I ever learned anything in my otherwise foolish life is precisely that things are almost never simple. In this case in particular I don't think there can be a really a single soul that can regard this case as simple regardless of personal convictions. That is demonstrably so and not a matter of opinion, I mean Jazz ... two years have almost gone by and no charges have been filed against Dale let alone a conviction, by anyone standards this case is the antitheses of simple. Perhaps what's simple is the notion that we often feel that we are absolutely right and therefore those who don't agree with us are absolutely wrong, especially when we are so emotionally invested in it all, me I only recognize my own ignorance as the tipping point in the balance of what I think I know and what I don't really know. The latter being vastly bigger then the former.

"Dale's family had to be subpoenaed and their house has to be raided with brutal force. That doesn't spell cooperation by any stretch of the imagination and that is FACT and not opinion"

I respectfully disagree there, it's not a fact that they did not cooperate, they did ... at least to a technical point since cooperation may at time be a subjective characterization, you're contending that they needed to be forced in order to finally cooperate, by subpoena specifically, which is not anything I remember (I can be wrong but I take your word for it) but definitely subpoena could be squashed and testimony cannot be compelled (unless immunity is granted) if a witness is really intent on not making a statement.

"Additionally Dale refused a LDT. If he was truly innocent and had nothing to hide, he would have done what innocent people do...put his big boy pants on and answer the questions"

Dale gave 4 different interviews to the police the details of which have not been released to the public although it is only the characterization of the police that at least at some point Dale was not "cooperative" for whatever reason that was and regardless of , that being true or false, accurate or not. Also and truly regarding LDTs they are refused routinely and they are not accepted as evidence of anything, that being the real fact. I personally would not take a LDT test for the reasons just mentioned, although admittedly I hope I'd have my big boy pants on at the time so I wouldn't have to ask for a pair in order to prove behind any doubts that I could refuse to take a LDT and be a big boy (with pants to match) Just kidding Jazz ... well sort of.

Anyway, it's always interesting to exchange opinions with you Jazz, that much I must admit.

Well I believe the facts are pretty simple in whodunit but the darn rascal is good at covering his tracks. Finding Michelle on the other hand is the ONLY complicated part IMO. Just because Dale is good at hiding evidence doesn't mean the case isn't simple it just means it is difficult to prove he did it and charge him with a crime. Does that make more sense?

Josie, one of my knitting buddies had a good analogy: she says this case is like a rat caught in molasses. We know who the rat is but can't move the case along cause we can't find Michelle. We keep on keeping on... Always great chatting with you Thor!

 

[What'sThatClue]

"...One thing that has always struck me is how neither the PRIME suspect nor his family have EVER offered any help or assistance in finding Michelle...

Let's try to correct the record here, If I remember correctly, despite repeated claims that first Dale gave no help whatsoever at first and then that it simply gave one interview, it turned out that he granted four different interviews with the police, that contrary to conflicting claims he did allow (at least initially) visitations with the GP, and that he did not try to prevent the children from also being interviewed by the police, which at least happened in two separate occasion (again if remember correctly). There is also no public record that I remember and/or I'm aware at this time that Dale's family was not cooperative with the police, actually we infer that they made statements to the police about Dale's whereabouts on and around Michelle's disappearance as they were much
publicized by the media and Dale's attorney. There is also no characterization by anyone that the family never? "... EVER offered any help or assistance in finding Michelle..."

"Not one phone call from that family which tells me a lot about their character"

I wish we would know both accounts of this issue, IMO this two families were clearly not close, that probably being quite an understatement and that is said not an indication of guilt or malice.
"It baffles my mind how a nice gal like Michelle could ever be attracted to SUCH a family of hooligans"

I think that statement stands on it's own, requires no comment from me and anyone can draw their own respectful conclusions.

Do you have links for any of this information? Example, you stated that Dale was interviewed by LE four times. I just can't find that, but maybe it's just eluding me at this time. I was sure, tho, that he lawyered up right away or within a short time and maybe spoke with LE one or twice but no formal interview And then he lawyered up (I could be wrong)...so could you please provide a link?

Also, iirc Dale's parents made a couple comments to MSM (I specifically remember Sr making one comment to media regarding Dale's whereabouts during the time Michelle "was supposed to be missing.". But Dale's parents had to be subpoenaed to speak with LE. http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...questions-investigative-subpoenas-parker-work

Anyway, it would really help refresh my memory if a link were included. TIA

 

[Thor]

Well I believe the facts are pretty simple in whodunit but the darn rascal is good at covering his tracks. Finding Michelle on the other hand is the ONLY complicated part IMO. Just because Dale is good at hiding evidence doesn't mean the case isn't simple it just means it is difficult to prove he did it and charge him with a crime. Does that make more sense?

Josie, one of my knitting buddies had a good analogy: she says this case is like a rat caught in molasses. We know who the rat is but can't move the case along cause we can't find Michelle. We keep on keeping on... Always great chatting with you Thor!

"... Just because Dale is good at hiding evidence doesn't mean the case isn't simple it just means it is difficult to prove he did it and charge him with a crime. Does that make more sense?"

I think that by simple you are referring to the conclusion of guilt not to the simplicity of the case in terms of a resolution, although both can't be true at the same time for obvious reason. But Jazz, I don't argue guilty or innocence from an opinion standpoint, I'm only interested in the facts, analyze them, may be explain them to the degree that I can and then others (not me) will make up their own minds, speaking strictly for myself I don't find it interesting or particularly significant for me to either condemn or absolve Dale, actually quite frankly I couldn't care less above and behind that which is necessary to pinpoint a suspect for the purpose of finding Michelle or where she might be, that's all. I do understand all the emotions involved here though.

"... great chatting with you Thor!"

The pleasure is all mine Jazz, we can disagree and sometimes even get pissed off but we do manage to be civil and friendly at the end, and that is good no matter what.

 

[Thor]

Do you have links for any of this information? Example, you stated that Dale was interviewed by LE four times. I just can't find that, but maybe it's just eluding me at this time.

Also, iirc Dale's parents made a couple comments to MSM (I specifically remember Sr making one comment to media regarding Dale's whereabouts during the time Michelle "was supposed to be missing.". But Dale's parents had to be subpoenaed to speak with LE. http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...questions-investigative-subpoenas-parker-work

Anyway, it would really help refresh my memory if a link were included. TIA

"Dale Smith Sr. arrived at the Orange-Osceola State Attorney's Office to asnwer quests after receiving an investigative subpoena in the case. - Orlando Sentinel

That is the way it also woks procedurally, it has no inherent relationship to Sr. having refused to cooperate, actually in itself it demonstrates the Sr. was cooperating with LE since if so he wished it could have refused to answer any questions unless an immunity agreement/order would have compelled him to answer questions by the police. I can't be sure of this but IMO probably LE intended to question all family members especially those that came in contact with Dale the day Michelle disappeared, it then would make sense to schedule interviews at different time and at different days by sending subpoenas to all concerned to let them know when was their time to show up for the interview. Again I'm speculating here.

"This is the second day in a row suspect Dale Smith II's family members have been questioned about the case. Tamara Smith, the suspect's mother, was questioned under oath." - Orlando Sentinel

Again that is another example of cooperation, at least technically speaking, which again confirms that the family was in fact cooperating. And again the "under oath" is a necessary legal procedure in order to enter the statements in the record to be potentially used later as evidence in case of a trial.

" ... Do you have links for any of this information? Example, you stated that Dale was interviewed by LE four times. I just can't find that, but maybe it's just eluding me at this time ...

No, but I'll look for it and will get back to you, I think it was part of the last press conference or press release in the last known investigative push made up of all those LE detectives and various experts coming together to re-analyze the case with a coordinated collective effort.

IMO

 

[Thor]

Do you have links for any of this information? Example, you stated that Dale was interviewed by LE four times. I just can't find that, but maybe it's just eluding me at this time. I was sure, tho, that he lawyered up right away or within a short time and maybe spoke with LE one or twice but no formal interview And then he lawyered up (I could be wrong)...so could you please provide a link?

Also, iirc Dale's parents made a couple comments to MSM (I specifically remember Sr making one comment to media regarding Dale's whereabouts during the time Michelle "was supposed to be missing.". But Dale's parents had to be subpoenaed to speak with LE. http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...questions-investigative-subpoenas-parker-work


Anyway, it would really help refresh my memory if a link were included. TIA

Ok What'sThatClue, I've looked high and low for what you asked and I must admit that my frustration has grown exponentially with each search, I was looking for a specific articles indicating Dale granted 4 separate interviews to the police as I claimed in my other post. So let me try to put this in the proper context:

I recall clearly that I've read that Dale granted the police 4 separate interviews. The link was posted by someone here, it was discussed at length somewhere earlier in the threads, I can't recall the date. Either that or I'm getting senile way before my time. Take your pick there but can't be both IMO.

I usually save relevant facts as bookmarks in my browser, so either I failed to do so in this particular instance or the link expired, or if I'm actually experiencing senility never existed to begin with of course.

I've been looking at so many pages already without success obviously but I'm not giving up, I'll continue the search tomorrow and file this right now as surviving through the night to fight another day.

Let me leave you right now with a few links on the subject of cooperation by Dale or lack thereof depending on your point of view. I hope that might be of interest to you if you're not familiar with the particulars of them already.

" .... He has fully cooperated… They have found absolutely no evidence that there’s any foul play on his part ..." - Yvonne Stewart

HERE

"Investigators said that Smith had been cooperating with authorities but recently declined a request to take a polygraph, or "lie detector," test." - Fox10 News

HERE


"He has been questioned several times by police, but has not been arrested." -Bay News9

HERE


Smith said, “He's spoken to them, he's let his children speak to them. He's let them search his property inside out. Unbeknownst to him they put a bug in the place and they still came up with nothing.” -Mark NeJame

HERE

 

[Jazzmaster]

Ok What'sThatClue, I've looked high and low for what you asked and I must admit that my frustration has grown exponentially with each search, I was looking for a specific articles indicating Dale granted 4 separate interviews to the police as I claimed in my other post. So let me try to put this in the proper context:

I recall clearly that I've read that Dale granted the police 4 separate interviews. The link was posted by someone here, it was discussed at length somewhere earlier in the threads, I can't recall the date. Either that or I'm getting senile way before my time. Take your pick there but can't be both IMO.

I usually save relevant facts as bookmarks in my browser, so either I failed to do so in this particular instance or the link expired, or if I'm actually experiencing senility never existed to begin with of course.

I've been looking at so many pages already without success obviously but I'm not giving up, I'll continue the search tomorrow and file this right now as surviving through the night to fight another day.

Let me leave you right now with a few links on the subject of cooperation by Dale or lack thereof depending on your point of view. I hope that might be of interest to you if you're not familiar with the particulars of them already.

" .... He has fully cooperated… They have found absolutely no evidence that there’s any foul play on his part ..." - Yvonne Stewart

HERE

"Investigators said that Smith had been cooperating with authorities but recently declined a request to take a polygraph, or "lie detector," test." - Fox10 News

HERE


"He has been questioned several times by police, but has not been arrested." -Bay News9

HERE


Smith said, “He's spoken to them, he's let his children speak to them. He's let them search his property inside out. Unbeknownst to him they put a bug in the place and they still came up with nothing.” -Mark NeJame

HERE

Thanks for sharing Thor. In that last link it shows more of how Dale is a dead beat dad. I know we discussed it earlier so check this out:

Yvonne said, “I got up with them twice a night and changed their diapers and fed them and took care of them when he didn't want to and I love them and they love us.”

What kind of dad doesn't want to take care of his kids?

 

[Jazzmaster]

"... Just because Dale is good at hiding evidence doesn't mean the case isn't simple it just means it is difficult to prove he did it and charge him with a crime. Does that make more sense?"

I think that by simple you are referring to the conclusion of guilt not to the simplicity of the case in terms of a resolution, although both can't be true at the same time for obvious reason. But Jazz, I don't argue guilty or innocence from an opinion standpoint, I'm only interested in the facts, analyze them, may be explain them to the degree that I can and then others (not me) will make up their own minds, speaking strictly for myself I don't find it interesting or particularly significant for me to either condemn or absolve Dale, actually quite frankly I couldn't care less above and behind that which is necessary to pinpoint a suspect for the purpose of finding Michelle or where she might be, that's all. I do understand all the emotions involved here though.

"... great chatting with you Thor!"

The pleasure is all mine Jazz, we can disagree and sometimes even get pissed off but we do manage to be civil and friendly at the end, and that is good no matter what.

Well to find Michelle you need to examine who had the means and motive. In this case, we fortunately have a suspect so we can now examine possible locations where he hid Michelle. You have to admit even if you don't know IF Dale is GUILTY or not...it is quite odd that all of her normal activity ceases once she arrives at Dale's condo. So what plausible scenarios do you have? If not Dale then who, when, where, and how? Why wouldn't she text her bf once she got back to her vehicle if she left Dale's condo alive or under her own free will?

 

[Thor]

Thanks for sharing Thor. In that last link it shows more of how Dale is a dead beat dad. I know we discussed it earlier so check this out:

Yvonne said, “I got up with them twice a night and changed their diapers and fed them and took care of them when he didn't want to and I love them and they love us.”

What kind of dad doesn't want to take care of his kids?

Jazz, you take someone statement and pass it as fact, I'm reasoning because you believe it, so let's try this again my way this time.

Yvonne said, “I got up with them twice a night and changed their diapers and fed them and took care of them when he didn't want to and I love them and they love us.”

I believe that to be true, and it indicates to me that Dale is a dead beat Dad because what kind of dad doesn't want to take care of his kids?
JMO, MOO, IMHO and what have you, bla bla bla, etc... etc...

Now that IMO is more like it and reasonable people might even wholeheartedly agree with it, not me though because I haven't even remotely heard from all concerned on this issue and therefore can't make up my mind about it.

 

[Kamille]

"Do you have a link that states that the maternal grandparents in this case have the right to appeal this decision? "

No but although I'm not a lawyer I'm certain of it since I have studied enough law in my life, Although truth be told I have been wrong before in a legal sense and otherwise

Particularly here, if the grandparents were legal party to a custody hearing, and had petitioned the courts to grant them custody of the twins as it seems the case here, then any judgment denying them such petition could be theoretically appealed, assuming that there are legal grounds for it.

" ... If so, why would YS be going through so much to change legislation and enact a law for people in situations like hers?"

IMO the legislation you're probably referring to does not grant Grandparents automatic visitation rights of their grandchildren, I believe it's only intended to establish on behalf of grandparents some legal standing in a narrow set of specific circumstances, which would be quite time consuming to discuss here for the purpose of this post and besides I'm not familiar enough with that statute to be confident of an informed opinion.

However, the grandparents retain rights to petition the court for custody of their grandchildren even though such a legal standing it's not defined by statute but it may nevertheless be awarded to them by the court in case of credible allegation of abuse, neglect and such by the parents against the children. Ultimately, as I expressed in an earlier post, children are not property and the underlying legal framework for custody is the best interest of the child and where that very interest is defined and adjudicated by the court. In other words think of the court as sort of temporary legal guardian of the child where there is a dispute regarding the child in a varied set of circumstances including but not limited to custodial issues. It is the court that determines legal standing of the petitioning parties not necessarily a particular statute, it is the Court that determines the best interest of the child where there are disputes among parties having legal standing again not necessarily just a matter of a particular statutory concern, although as per court precedents, there are guidelines that govern specific adjudications, of course everything can be potential appealed, even all the way to the US supreme court should there be constitutional questions.

"I'm assuming that they are hoping that between the legislation or a win in a wrongful death civil suit ..."

I'd be totally shocked from a legal point of view if that civil suit would go forward under the circumstances as they exist today.

"... So it's not over a 3-4 year time period. They were only apart for a year or less before Michelle disappeared and there were 3 attempts at receiving support during that time frame ..."

Point taken and I'll try to verify later, however the larger point I had made here is valid, one two or even a few missed payments do not make someone a dead-beat parent IMO and it seems to me the whole thing is quite exaggerated for "dramatic purposes" although it'd be really pretentious and inappropriate for me to judge other people's motives, opinions and so on. Besides everyone is entitled to an opinion and one can argue up to a point and then it's best to agree to disagree.

IMO

So the short version is that you have no idea if the grandparents could have appealed the custody decision and what you are stating is your opinion?

For the record it was DCF who obtained the "take into custody" order on the twins and it was them who were trying to remove the twins from DSJr and put them into temporary protective custody. And it was a representative from the DCF who testified at the trial, along with Michelle's oldest son. I suppose it was assumed that DCF would allow YS's home to be the placement for the children.

So I cannot see how the grandparent(s) were able to appeal the decision. They do not have custodial rights, which is why YS is trying to have a law enacted to change that in situations such as this. The DCF recommended that the children be removed from the custody of their father and applied for the order based on their investigation and interview with the children. The judge disregarded the testimony of the DCF, Michelle's oldest son, his multiple court records of violence as well as domestic issues with Michelle and others and the fact that LE had named him the prime suspect in Michelle's disappearance. Unbelievable, and a decision that shocked the majority of the people following the case as well as Michelle's family and friends.

Therefore we shouldn't be making blanket statements that because they didn't appeal the decision that they had no grounds to when it appears rather that they had no rights to or you can bet they would have. I'm sure they are doing everything possible via their lawyers to try to correct that wrong. The civil suit is just another example of that IMO.

MOO