FL - Somer Thompson, 7, Orange Park, 19 Oct 2009 #33

[sadnpod]

Chickenpants, I am still looking for the vid where she is bent down and says that about not releasing the body. I remember it that way too.

Here is a video I found I had not seen before. Does anyone know who the 2 ladies on the porch with Sam are?

http://www2.wnct.com/nct/news/national/article/search_on_for_murderer_of_somer_thompson/66059/

I kept losing the connection.. but that was JH seated on the porch.

 

[pinamia]

Chickenpants, I am still looking for the vid where she is bent down and says that about not releasing the body. I remember it that way too.

Here is a video I found I had not seen before. Does anyone know who the 2 ladies on the porch with Sam are?

http://www2.wnct.com/nct/news/national/article/search_on_for_murderer_of_somer_thompson/66059/

The one with brown hair is his sister.

I don't know who the other one with the baby is.

 

[NSC]

I was just re-reading this to refresh my own memory.

It states that the next-of-kin must sign to allow release of body.

The paragraph I have highlighted says that the next of kin can be told the COD. Therefore, I must assume that LE has prohibited release of this information, even to Somer's next of kin.

Can I find out of the cause of death?
Yes, in the majority of cases. You can call our office the following day in the late afternoon for the results of the autopsy. Occasionally, we are unable to record a definitive cause of death immediately following our examination. Frequently it is necessary to perform microscopic, chemical or toxicology tests in order to arrive at the exact cause of death. The death certificate for these cases will be listed as "pending" and may take six to eight weeks or longer to complete. If the "death certificate" is pending, a letter will be sent to the next of kin indicating this and a follow-up letter will be issued when the cause of death has been determined. Our office will then complete an amendment to the death certificate.

Please note: it says that occasionally they are unable to RECORD due to pending results, but it does not say they are unable to RELEASE.

Further clarification: LE said they had the COD but were not releasing any information. This was not a case of pending due to tests. In the interview with her attorney present, DT said, (related to did have any information about the investigation): "No, nothing. I don't even know how Somer died."

It sure makes you wonder if it could have have been a combination of things -- COD -- Possibly awaiting some toxicology results on top of anything physical -- although those are typically 6 weeks -- we are about over 9 now?? Drug overdoses - Heath Ledger those types took about that time..

 

[New1]

It sure makes you wonder if it could have have been a combination of things -- COD -- Possibly awaiting some toxicology results on top of anything physical -- although those are typically 6 weeks -- we are about over 9 now?? Drug overdoses - Heath Ledger those types took about that time..

LE says they KNOW the COD, so I would assume all the autopsy results are in. It sounds like they have known the COD for some time now and they knew IMMEDIATELY the manner of death was homocide.

 

[ChickenPants]

Chickenpants, I am still looking for the vid where she is bent down and says that about not releasing the body. I remember it that way too.

Here is a video I found I had not seen before. Does anyone know who the 2 ladies on the porch with Sam are?

http://www2.wnct.com/nct/news/national/article/search_on_for_murderer_of_somer_thompson/66059/

I had seen edited versions of this before, but not the whole thing. The "I have to forgive you" statement (beginning) is almost exactly what he said on the Vinnie Politan interview. The woman I assume was his sig. other but Sad would probably know that.

The DT vid i am talking about was the same vigil you posted earlier. She wasn't bent down, she was off to the left of camera (our left) and was just coming out, walking, when she announced it to the crowd. No luck finding it. I am pretty certain the vigil was Oct. 23 and have seen the articles (posted) but no full-length videos, and I want to say the one I saw was either "raw" or an amateur-made one, but I'm not sure.

Thanks

 

[ChickenPants]

My friend's child was kidnapped years ago. LE cleared them publicly almost immediately and were very close with them. It was obvious that LE had respect for the family. And there was zero fundraisers for themselves. Only for the reward. The child was never found.

Operative 5 words: LE cleared them publicly almost immediately.
This is going on 3 months now.

 

[New1]

I've been thinking about LE saying this was a homicide so quickly. What could they have seen to rule it a homicide immediately? Aside from being found in a landfill, I mean. Being found in a landfill would not immediately make them know with 100% certainty that this was a homicide, as it could have been an accidental death from Somer falling into a dumpster and things getting dumped in on her to cause her death. Very unlikely, but it couldn't be ruled out immediately at the very instant her body was found.

The more I think about it - that nobody saw or heard anything - I tend to think she was bound and gagged, silenced before her murder, so she couldn't scream or yell while being beaten to death. For some reason, IDK why, I have always thought this was a rage crime and not planned.

If Somer's hands and/or feet were bound when they first uncovered her body at the landfill THAT would make them know immediately that she was murdered. Decapitation would probably make them immediately recognize it as a homicide. Duct tape over the mouth would indicate homicide too. Gunshot, throat slashed, what else?

They would expect some injuries from just being thrown in a dumpster, but what things other than the ones I have listed do you think would make LE rule it a homicide so quickly? Anyone?

 

[ChickenPants]

LE says they KNOW the COD, so I would assume all the autopsy results are in. It sounds like they have known the COD for some time now and they knew IMMEDIATELY the manner of death was homocide.

Let's take New's statement that she is LE, (outside the box) and it is another child.

NEWS: Detective New, you state that you know the cause of death, that it was a homicide, but you have not released this to the family or to the public.
Can you tell us why?

DET NEW: We are not going to release any information that may inadvertently hinder the course of this investigation.

NEWS: So Detective New, you have a suspect or suspects in mind, then?''

DET NEW: At this time, the only person that has been cleared is myself.

NEWS: Well, then, Detective New, can you please explain how the family knowing the cause of death of their child would hinder your investigation?
You stated that nobody has been cleared: Does this mean the family has not been cleared as suspects in this homicide?

DET NEW:____________________________________________________

Friends, would you mind being Detective New for me? TIA

 

[ChickenPants]

I've been thinking about LE saying this was a homicide so quickly. What could they have seen to rule it a homicide immediately? Aside from being found in a landfill, I mean. Being found in a landfill would not immediately make them know with 100% certainty that this was a homicide, as it could have been an accidental death from Somer falling into a dumpster and things getting dumped in on her to cause her death. Very unlikely, but it couldn't be ruled out immediately at the very instant her body was found.

The more I think about it - that nobody saw or heard anything - I tend to think she was bound and gagged, silenced before her murder, so she couldn't scream or yell while being beaten to death. For some reason, IDK why, I have always thought this was a rage crime and not planned.

If Somer's hands and/or feet were bound when they first uncovered her body at the landfill THAT would make them know immediately that she was murdered. Decapitation would probably make them immediately recognize it as a homicide. Duct tape over the mouth would indicate homicide too. Gunshot, throat slashed, what else?

They would expect some injuries from just being thrown in a dumpster, but what things other than the ones I have listed do you think would make LE rule it a homicide so quickly? Anyone?

LE said she was identified by clothing, birthmark, and her "knee" - was it a recent scrape or gash? This wouldn't necessarily mean murder...but she could have been dragged facing forward to cause the gash/scrape. If she had not fallen that day, it would be suspicious...

If a strong, angry perp with big hands put his hands across her mouth, he could suffocate her; He would put one hand over her mouth and the other to apply pressure and prob hold her tightly against himself...she would not be able to scream. The pressure of his hands (such as thumbs pressing against the head) could leave bruising. How else would you get bruising on each side of your head?

If he grabbed across her mouth with one hand, she wouldn't be able to scream but may thrash and try to fight him off and a little trace of something under her fingernails? Again, the strong pressure of his hand leaving a mark or bruise.

If he came from behind her and dragged her backwards, there would be scuff marks on her shoes from the weight of the body being dragged (especially the heels) that could be further detected on analysis; perhaps leaves or other things matched to crime scene would be partially embedded in a shoe or stuck to her clothing. Likewise if he dragged her body after killing her, things would stick to her clothing: leaves, sawdust, etc., if dragged by her feet, these things would be deep in her hair. As opposed to surface trash, they would be stuck to her, KNWIM?

If he grabbed her very very suddenly by the throat and he would cut off her windpipe she would not be able to scream. Just like a person choking needing the Heimlich maneuver is unable to make a sound...she may thrash and urinate (as Pin told us) and there would perhaps be traces of urine on her clothing that could be analyzed as evidence in the context of a certain murder scenario. Choking would also leave a mark or bruise. If he killed her and let her drop to the ground and her head hit the ground, there would still be a wound there even if she died immediately, because the skin would break and there would still be blood in the body. Traces of blood on clothing? Body dragged through blood, minute traces of a blood trail? By Gano house? In Gano house?

If she was quickly knocked in the head, especially from behind, she would not scream. Her skull would be caved in, and not from being in a dumpster. The wound would not necessarily break the skin (blood), but it would have a certain circumference, which they could match to a certain weapon or blunt object, etc. When knocked on the head, the blood rushes again to the point of the wound, and that is a big bruise. On autopsy they can tell if a person suffered a subdural hematoma which is rupturing of blood vessel and a blood clot to the brain and causes death, especially in younger people. Subdural hematoma is nearly always caused by blunt trauma to the head, such as from a fall or a punch, etc.

If he punched her in the head or the solar plexus it would knock her unconscious, she wouldn't be able to scream, and that punch would leave a bruise, skull fracture, broken ribs or anything that would be wounded in the circumference of a fist. And they can analyze the velocity of any blunt trauma just like they can analyze the size of a bullet from the entry wound...?

Any trained police officer or homicide detective would be able to recognize any or all of the above by looking, or gently prodding an area with a gloved hand. I do believe that by the time they found her body, they were treating the case as a homicide as opposed to a missing person, so homicide detectives would probably be right in the vicinity in the event of finding the body and following the protocols for homicide.

 

[ChickenPants]

I think some of the hinkiness of this case comes from the fact the Governor got involved in it. I have a feeling he left orders and strong suggestions to his fellow politicians and LE when he left town.

Interesting and thought-provoking...Dr. F can you expand what it is you think? I can't get my mind into it alone. TIA

 

[New1]

Think about the sheriff saying this was a "heinous" crime.

Heinous:

Extremely wicked
Shocking
Evil
Grave
Vicious
Outrageous
Revolting
Hideous
Unspeakable
Atrocious
Odious
Abominable

And other adjectives describing the word "heinous".

 

[ChickenPants]

Still looking up possible information on releasing COD to family...came across this in protocol of child homicide investigation. FYI only

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/209764.pdf

 

[ChickenPants]

I THINK I HAVE IT HERE: Please read question to the medical examiner portion. I am still trying to find out whether this would include family:

http://www.maine.gov/ag/crime/crimes_we_prosecute/homicides.shtml

This is for the state of Maine, but I would assume the protocols exist for Fl as well.

 

[ChickenPants]

This is from a State Protocol on post-mortem release, more to follow:

WHEN IS A POST-MORTEM NECESSARY?
In most coronial cases a post-mortem is required to determine the precise cause of death.

However, on some occasions the State Coroner can determine the cause of death from the person's medical history and the police report on the circumstances surrounding the death.

One major benefit of a post-mortem is that it provides detailed information about the person's medical condition prior to death and so gives an understanding of the various factors that may have contributed to their death. Even if the cause of death may seem clear, the person may have had a medical condition that was not apparent during life.

This information may be very important for family members trying to come to terms with the death.From a medical point of view, if the person died from an infection or genetic disease, a post-mortem may provide valuable information for other family members.

Essentially, a post-mortem examination is ordered by the State Coroner to ensure that a balanced and accurate finding as to the cause of death can be determined.

 

[ChickenPants]

Regarding Cause of Death and Viewing:

CAN I HAVE A COPY OF THE POST-MORTEM REPORT?
A copy of the post mortem report can be made available to the senior next of kin. If you are not the senior next of kin, then the views of the senior next of kin are sought before the post mortem report is released.

If you are the senior next of kin and wish to receive a copy of the report, write to the Manager, State Coroner’s Office, 302 King William Street, Adelaide South Australia 5000. The letter should state your name and your relationship to the deceased. Also include the name and address of the doctor to whom you would like the report sent.

- top -

CAN I SEE THE BODY OF THE DECEASED?
Many people wish to see the body of a loved one as soon as possible after death. To assist this to happen the State Coroner makes every effort to release the body as soon as possible.

Wherever possible, it is suggested that any viewing be arranged with the funeral director as their facilities are usually much more suitable. However, the State Coroner may, in certain circumstances, allow a viewing of the body before release. If you have a specific request please contact the Social Worker at the State Coroner’s Office on (08) 8204 0600.

A viewing is done by prior arrangement and is conducted during limited hours Monday to Friday.

A viewing should not be confused with a formal identification of the body arranged by the police.

- top -

WHEN CAN I FIND OUT THE CAUSE OF DEATH?
Once the State Coroner has received the report outlining the cause of death, the next of kin will be formally notified of the official cause of death. The next of kin will also be notified when a decision is made whether or not an inquest is necessary or desirable.

The pathologist performing the post-mortem provides initial information to the State Coroner immediately after the post-mortem. This is called the provisional cause of death.

Next of kin will receive a letter stating the provisional case of death.

Once the State Coroner makes a finding if you want to view documents relating to an investigation, you should speak or write to the Social Worker at the State Coroner’s Office. The telephone number is (08) 82040600.

 

[ChickenPants]

CAUSE OF DEATH is not the same as CIRCUMSTANCES OF DEATH.

Cause of death may be asphyxiation, etc. What she died from.
Circumstances of death would be strangulation, etc. How she died. This is interesting:

HOW AND WHEN CAN I ACCESS INFORMATION ABOUT THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF DEATH?
Every case is different and so the time taken to investigate cases varies greatly. Next of kin are advised in writing once a finding is made, or if the decision is made to hold an inquest.

The State Coroner's Office does not usually release detailed information about the circumstances of death until a finding has been made. To do so may compromise the investigation or provide incomplete and therefore misleading information to the next of kin.

Once a finding has been made, if you wish to view documents relating to the circumstances, please write to the Social Worker at the State Coroner's Office.

So I can understand them perhaps not telling family circumstances of death, but I do not understand why family is not allowed to know cause of death. ?

We know that here, a finding has been made.

 

[sadnpod]

The one with brown hair is his sister.

I don't know who the other one with the baby is.

The girl with the brown hair is NOT his sister, that is JH. I dont know for sure who the gilr is with the baby, but I think it is a member of his church.

 

[Noway]

ChickenP, from your research, I think it is safe to say that Sheriff Beseler not releasing the cause of death to the family is highly unusual if not unheard of completely.

Which makes me wonder ...

In other cases, even when family was suspected (and later found guilty) the COD was released.

Why, oh why, would Sheriff Beseler want to keep this quiet?

ETA: Maybe DT and ST do know, and they are saying they said they didn't so they didn't have to field questions from the media and possibly leak out something the sheriff did not want out.

 

[ChickenPants]

Very good point!

Also on sheriff calling DT and ST when the official ID came in... DT asked the sheriff to call her as soon as he knew. I dont think we can read this as his being aloof to her because of guilt. I think he just did as he was asked to do and called immediately instead of driving to her.

Sad, if this was DT's request (phone call) then I am also sure there were other LE at the home who were prepared to intercept that call or offer professional support to the family when they were informed Somer was found.

 

[ChickenPants]

ChickenP, from your research, I think it is safe to say that Sheriff Beseler not releasing the cause of death to the family is highly unusual if not unheard of completely.

Which makes me wonder ...

In other cases, even when family was suspected (and later found guilty) the COD was released.

Why, oh why, would Sheriff Beseler want to keep this quiet?

ETA: Maybe DT and ST do know, and they are saying they said they didn't so they didn't have to field questions from the media and possibly leak out something the sheriff did not want out.

I would love to think that your ETA is the reason. But when I saw that video of DT telling the crowd at the vigil that she wouldn't be able to see Somer, it seemed very realistic and she was emotional. And why would she add that she was going to get a lock of her hair. I still don't know who the "they" is that were supposed to get this for her, or if she ever did get it. A poster back when on here said she was going to get it and it would be framed, that someone was going to donate this to her.

On the last interview with mom (when she looked almost totally different and had attorney with her), she said she knew "nothing". She was calm when she said it.

I have been on the computer for 2 hours trying to find out why autopsy results would be withheld from family and there is NOTHING. Michael Jackson keeps popping up but that is with reference to media. I am giving up on this one. Chalk it up to hinky, like lots of other things in this situation.