FL - Somer Thompson, 7, Orange Park, 19 Oct 2009 #33

[ChickenPants]

I would love to think that your ETA is the reason. But when I saw that video of DT telling the crowd at the vigil that she wouldn't be able to see Somer, it seemed very realistic and she was emotional. And why would she add that she was going to get a lock of her hair. I still don't know who the "they" is that were supposed to get this for her, or if she ever did get it. A poster back when on here said she was going to get it and it would be framed, that someone was going to donate this to her.

On the last interview with mom (when she looked almost totally different and had attorney with her), she said she knew "nothing". She was calm when she said it.

I have been on the computer for 2 hours trying to find out why autopsy results would be withheld from family and there is NOTHING. Michael Jackson keeps popping up but that is with reference to media. I am giving up on this one. Chalk it up to hinky, like lots of other things in this situation.

ONE MORE THING: When I talked to the funeral director about family not viewing body (whether it was prohibited), he said that in murder investigations, a lot of this is the CORONER'S CALL. Of course, the Coroner is officially LE.

We have to remember also, that in the autopsy they would have had to determine when she died approximately, and place (State) of death. If she died in Florida, and was autopsied in GA, then it is the GA ME's call? Or did they work out an arrangement between GA and FL LE? Who knows????? Think about what a mess THAT is!

 

[New1]

I am still amazed that the COD is still such a secret. What with all the LEO's who must know, NONE of them have told their spouses? Hard to believe, isn't it? When more than one person knows a secret, it no longer is a secret. Husbands tell wives, wives tell best friends, best friends tell their friends, and on and on. Even when people are sworn to secrecy, word gets out somehow, but yet nothing has gotten out in this particular case. Amazing.

 

[Noway]

"We know the cause of death," said a spokesperson with the Clay County Sheriff's office. "We want to preserve the integrity of this investigation and are not releasing any information that in the long run would prevent us from prosecuting and convicting the person who did this to Somer [Thompson]."

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...r_thompsons_cause_of_death.html#ixzz0cAoB2lM4


How would the cause of death being public prevent them from prosecuting and convicting the guilty person and why has it never been an issue before with other cases?

Or has it? IDK

Can anyone recall any case in which a judge said he had to release the perp because the COD had been released?
​

 

[human]

"We know the cause of death," said a spokesperson with the Clay County Sheriff's office. "We want to preserve the integrity of this investigation and are not releasing any information that in the long run would prevent us from prosecuting and convicting the person who did this to Somer [Thompson]."

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...r_thompsons_cause_of_death.html#ixzz0cAoB2lM4


How would the cause of death being public prevent them from prosecuting and convicting the guilty person and why has it never been an issue before with other cases?

Or has it? IDK

Can anyone recall any case in which a judge said he had to release the perp because the COD had been released?
​

If any COD is released, what does it mean?

Asphyxiated-doesn't indicate if manual or with a device.

Bleeding-gunshot, stabbing, beating. No indication.

Blunt force trauma- doesn't indicate what, where on the body, etc.

What is the big deal? Any ideas at all?

 

[ChickenPants]

I am still amazed that the COD is still such a secret. What with all the LEO's who must know, NONE of them have told their spouses? Hard to believe, isn't it? When more than one person knows a secret, it no longer is a secret. Husbands tell wives, wives tell best friends, best friends tell their friends, and on and on. Even when people are sworn to secrecy, word gets out somehow, but yet nothing has gotten out in this particular case. Amazing.

NEW, how many people really care about this case any more? We do, certainly. But it's not like it is Caylee Anthony, and it's far below Tiger Woods and celebrities on the media. The last article just said LE is still looking and hasn't given up. But given up on WHOM? If there is still a vicious predator out there ... like LE and people like John Walsh were eager to offer up as theories, shouldn't there still be some media interest. Or, no, they wait until some other little child is killed. I agree that COD kept secret is kind of amazing, but then again it seems that people aren't just onto it any more. They have accepted that what LE does is their business?

I feel a rant coming on...they would not have to tell the family if she was sexual molested. A person does not die from "sexual molestation", and in Somer's case, it's doubtful that injuries sustained in molest. would be her cause of death.

Scenario: Nicole Simpson, cause of death may have been blood loss due to multiple stabbings, that would be a tough one to explain.
Lacey Petersen, COD was - I think - drowning? Well, knowing that helped convict Scott Petersen, didn't it? So how could COD prevent LE from prosecuting, and how could the investigation be hindered by telling the mother and father COD? We know that ST was not even there, and LE appears to be very sympathetic to DT. So what is up? Some smart sleuther will figure it out, I am just waiting.

 

[ChickenPants]

If any COD is released, what does it mean?

Asphyxiated-doesn't indicate if manual or with a device.

Bleeding-gunshot, stabbing, beating. No indication.

Blunt force trauma- doesn't indicate what, where on the body, etc.

What is the big deal? Any ideas at all?

Yeah, really, really good point. Everyone knows she was murdered. Unless there is a perp that strangles someone with a special kind of knot that is known only to him, for ex. But they wouldn't have to give the family ONE BIT of the details. Only say, she died from asphyxiation (or whatever) and to try to tell them as gently as possible. Get it over with. They don't have to give the METHOD or anything other than what is listed on the Coroner's Report, which is a statistic, period.

 

[New1]

If any COD is released, what does it mean?

Asphyxiated-doesn't indicate if manual or with a device.

Bleeding-gunshot, stabbing, beating. No indication.

Blunt force trauma- doesn't indicate what, where on the body, etc.

What is the big deal? Any ideas at all?

ITA. I see absolutely NO reason for not releasing COD. Has anybody EVER heard of a case where COD is kept a secret? Surely the person who killed somer is NOT going to say they know the cause of death anyway. Whoever killed her KNOWS they are withholding COD just like we all do. The killer listens to the news I suppose, reads newspapers, etc. He/she knows they are withholding COD to try and trip up the killer, so he/she is certainly going to make sure he/she doesn't let it slip out. IMO

 

[ChickenPants]

Maybe they have blacked out all of the information because so many people have said so many stupid things at so many times that they must realize it's a mistake to say anything.

I'd love for someone to do a list of discrepancies. Noway, are you up for it? lol

 

[ChickenPants]

Hink question:

Does anybody know or can you figure out this possibility - Remembering that it is the Coroner's office who documents the results of autopsies:

Assuming Somer was killed in FL (and they could determine that by the autopsy by approx. time of death), but found in Georgia, (we know the GA ME did the autopsy), official pronouncement of death would have been in GA. Would the GA ME have jurisdiction to release or withhold COD from parent?

Remembering what I have posted of various state protocols, next of kin can request copy of death certificate from Coroner (in this case, GA?).

Or did they, at some time, hand back over all of the jurisdiction to the State of Florida since (1) it was Somer's place of residence and (2) she was killed there? Then we could assume that if LE refused to release COD to DT, and she really, really wanted it, she could contact the GA Medical Examiner's office and request that written copy (which in protocol would be paid for because it was a homicide), unless FL LE told GA NOT to release it to her.

I have always been curious about the extent to which the two law enforcement agencies worked together on this case. TIA

 

[ChickenPants]

ITA. I see absolutely NO reason for not releasing COD. Has anybody EVER heard of a case where COD is kept a secret? Surely the person who killed somer is NOT going to say they know the cause of death anyway. Whoever killed her KNOWS they are withholding COD just like we all do. The killer listens to the news I suppose, reads newspapers, etc. He/she knows they are withholding COD to try and trip up the killer, so he/she is certainly going to make sure he/she doesn't let it slip out. IMO

We have a real mystery here: A LE who publicly and specifically supports the mother and yet refuses to tell her the cause of death of her daughter because allegedly doing so will hamper his investigation, and urges her not to even see her daughter for the last possible time before the child is buried.

 

[New1]

Just think of the number of people who already know the COD and how many people COULD know besides the killer. Let's see now....at least some members of LE know, any one of them could, and probably have told a member of their family; the funeral director and anybody he might have told; the ME and anyone he might have told; members of the ME staff and people they could have told; the coroner and any people he might have told. I'm just saying....the list of people who KNOW the COD could be endless. WHY CAN'T THE MOM AND DAD BE TOLD? There is NO reason that I can see.

 

[ChickenPants]

This link is from an advocacy group for co-victims of homicide (survivors, families). This set off a HUGE HINK METER for me.

Child Homicide: Co-victims of homicide have a vested interest in participating in the criminal or juvenile justice system and understanding the complex issues of a cumbersome legal system.

When members of a homicide support group (Fairfax Peer Survivors Group) in Fairfax, Virginia, were polled about their needs during the legal process, the single most important issue for them was their ability to obtain information from the prosecutors, detectives, and other professionals. They--


Wanted to know exactly how, when, and why their loved one was murdered and who committed the murder.

Wanted to know if their loved one suffered.


Wanted to know the truth about the events of the death and elements needed to support the charge.

Expected to feel better if the case was successfully prosecuted.

Discounting the family's contribution to a case discounts the pain of their victimization. Co-victims feel devalued when they are not allowed input into plea decisions and when they are barred from criminal or juvenile justice proceedings. They are distraught when the imposition of a technical rule, e.g., a "gag order" which prevents them from attending the trial, may in turn eliminate their last opportunity to do something for their loved one (Sobieski 1994).

 

[ChickenPants]

From Network of Victim Assistance, re: LE dealing with families in homicide


Involvement in the Criminal Justice System
Most of the people who work within the criminal justice system are well-trained and have demonstrated tremendous sensitivity assisting family members after a murder. However, re-victimization of family members might easily result from the way in which family members are notified of the murder, whether their loved one's body can be released by the coroner in a timely manner, how they are given information from the autopsy report, whether or not a suspect is caught, and the manner in which the investigation and/or prosecution are conducted.

Law Enforcement:
When someone has been murdered, law enforcement is usually the first on the scene and, therefore, the first part of the criminal justice system with which the surviving family comes into contact. Generally, the family is frantic for information -- anything that will help them to comprehend what has happened. In murders where little is known or in cases where family members have not been ruled out as suspects, information cannot be forthcoming to the rest of the family. When family members have always perceived themselves to be law-abiding and good citizens, this might not only cause them to feel frustrated and embarrassed, but might also cause them to experience a "secondary victimization" by the very system that they expected would be there to help them find justice.

In cases where homicide survivors have not been able to view their loved one's body -- either because it was not permitted or they felt unable to do so -- it is often difficult for them to accept the reality of the death. It is for this reason that Redmond urges that family members be permitted to go through this viewing process, as painful as it may be at the time.[/B]

 

[New1]

ChickP, if the COD is listed on the Death Certificate that makes even more people who know the cause of death: almost certainly all the staff who works at Vital Statistics Office would know, unless they were instructed to type "withheld" in that block on the document.

If the Sheriff thinks so highly of DT, how could he keep this information from her? He must know the kind of anguish she is going through not knowing. I would think that if she truly does not know, she is imagining all sorts of horrible things which could have happened to cause her child's death. Why not take that kind of pain away from her and just tell her? Why put her through more anguish than is necessary? At least she would KNOW and not have to be imagining something that might be worse than the truth.

 

[ChickenPants]

http://www.dchd.net/files/Death App 7-09 _new_.pdf

APPLICATION FOR FLORIDA DEATH RECORD. Simple.

 

[New1]

http://www.dchd.net/files/Death App 7-09 _new_.pdf

APPLICATION FOR FLORIDA DEATH RECORD. Simple.

From reading this, it would seem that DT or ST or both could get a Death Certificate with COD listed if they wanted to.

Also, I thought about Life Insurance Policies if there were any on Somer. The beneficiary would have to provide a Death Certificate WITH COD to the insurance company to collect on the policy, wouldn't they? The insurance company would want to know what the insured died from before they would process the claim. Yes? No?

 

[ChickenPants]

ITA. I see absolutely NO reason for not releasing COD. Has anybody EVER heard of a case where COD is kept a secret? Surely the person who killed somer is NOT going to say they know the cause of death anyway. Whoever killed her KNOWS they are withholding COD just like we all do. The killer listens to the news I suppose, reads newspapers, etc. He/she knows they are withholding COD to try and trip up the killer, so he/she is certainly going to make sure he/she doesn't let it slip out. IMO

After looking all day, I have only found 2 (other than Michael Jackson) where COD was not released; one was a 4 year old whose parents weren't home; they are possibly looking at other people who were there? And the other case the parents were suspected of murder due to child abuse.

 

[ChickenPants]

Just think of the number of people who already know the COD and how many people COULD know besides the killer. Let's see now....at least some members of LE know, any one of them could, and probably have told a member of their family; the funeral director and anybody he might have told; the ME and anyone he might have told; members of the ME staff and people they could have told; the coroner and any people he might have told. I'm just saying....the list of people who KNOW the COD could be endless. WHY CAN'T THE MOM AND DAD BE TOLD? There is NO reason that I can see.

Well I am familiar with HIPPA laws which are very strict regarding confidentiality. If you circumvent those laws, you can lose your license and be fined a hefty sum, I know that. IF DT knew COD they would probably need HER permission to release it to the media. It's all about patient and victim rights. A weird idea in this case.

 

[ChickenPants]

chickp, if the cod is listed on the death certificate that makes even more people who know the cause of death: Almost certainly all the staff who works at vital statistics office would know, unless they were instructed to type "withheld" in that block on the document.

If the sheriff thinks so highly of dt, how could he keep this information from her? He must know the kind of anguish she is going through not knowing. I would think that if she truly does not know, she is imagining all sorts of horrible things which could have happened to cause her child's death. Why not take that kind of pain away from her and just tell her? Why put her through more anguish than is necessary? At least she would know and not have to be imagining something that might be worse than the truth.

why, indeed?????

 

[ChickenPants]

From reading this, it would seem that DT or ST or both could get a Death Certificate with COD listed if they wanted to.

Also, I thought about Life Insurance Policies if there were any on Somer. The beneficiary would have to provide a Death Certificate WITH COD to the insurance company to collect on the policy, wouldn't they? The insurance company would want to know what the insured died from before they would process the claim. Yes? No?

In the death certificate application I just posted, the next of kin can check off whether they want to know manner of death or not?

Yes, the insurance information jumped out at me like a kangaroo, too. Not that anybody needs it at this time I don't think.