FL - Terri Schiavo Court Case

[Details]

I've had this decision once for a cat - and that was tricky enough. A 15 year old cat - a wonderful, wonderful cat. Good health all her life (and a good thing because she's very hard to give medicine to, hates vets), just a little arthritis. I get home, and according to my sister, she's been walking around with her head down, just about dragging her nose on the ground all day. Doesn't act like she is in pain, but also doesn't act like she is comfortable, definitely not herself.

I give it a few hours to see if she'll recover, then take her to the emergency vet. They run a blood test, and find what they were expecting - this behavior is a symptom of low (or high) potassium? and means her liver/kidney/something or other has shut down.

Treatment options:

1. Put her to sleep - it's only going to get worse, and fast.
2. Don't put her to sleep, don't treat it.
3. Treatment - give her injections and pills twice every day, special food, gain maybe 3-6 months of life for her - one very dedicated owner has gained over a year of life for their cat. This treatment has a 10% chance of working in a cat this age.


It's not an easy decision - there's quality of life, whether or not the treatment would succeed, etc. Option 2 - I would never do that - it's not right to torment her that way. So, option 3.... she always had a lot of dignity, a lot of self esteem - she wasn't my pet nor my possession, she was my friend, and an equal in her mind. Option 3 is unlikely to work, but what is worse to me is that I would be, in her mind, torturing her several times a day, every day, for the rest of her life. And I can't communicate to her why - and she still wouldn't be healed, she'd just be alive.

My choice was option 4. Since my Bella wasn't visibly in pain, I asked him to give her a potassium injection, the initial treatment, to see if it made any difference, and took her home for the night - made her a special bed on the sofa with a warm rice bag underneath (a great treat for arthritic cats - we did that for her regularly), tried to take care of her and make her comfortable. She didn't move once in the night - in the morning she was still there, still same position. I made her get up - she still couldn't lift her head, and I could see she wasn't comfortable (cat's don't tend to show pain - if you can see they aren't comfortable, they are probably in a fair amount of pain). That made the choice for me. I took her in and had her put to sleep (they were very nice about that - let me hold her, had a special room - I guess emergency vets get a lot of experience in this).

I just can't see how this level of detail, from the one real life case I was involved in, gets into a living will.

 

[Bobbisangel]

He didn't move on - he visited Terri continuously - she was a major part of his life, and his girlfriends didn't get to be the only woman in his life - he always had another person to care for - the girlfriends even did Terri's laundry! Terri's parents moved on more than he did - they visited less often (although they made that up in time they spent selling their daughter's case to the media :slap: ).

I can't call it adultery - Terri was dead. Everything that made Terri who she was, everything that made her human was dead. No brain, no memory, no personality, no communication. The scans while she was breathing showed it, the autopsy after she was dead showed it. "Until Death do we part". Michael was very loyal to Terri - fighting for the best care, every possible longshot experimental chance for her to recover. When he finally accepted the truth of what the doctors said, he was still loyal to her - turning down millions of dollars to fight for her right to determine the way she would die rather than turning her over to her parents who say they would not care about Terri's wishes.

Maybe he was the dedicated husband the first year or two but that all came to a halt. From what the people that took care of Terri have said Michael S.
refused to even let them send Terri to the hospital to have a urinary track infections tended to. For years Terri went without any kind of "best care" or any kind of rehab at all.

I don't think the good Lord looked at Michael S. as single while Terri was still alive. The law didn't either. Maybe he convinced himself that he was but that still didn't make him single.

I believe Terri's family would have spent time every day with her if they had been allowed. Mr. Big Shot took care of that when he refused to let them visit
the majority of the time over the years. He controlled when they could and couldn't visit their daughter/sister. He controlled Terri's medical care. He had to control every aspect of Terri's life. IMO this man (?) will reap what he has sown in time. I don't call anything that he did where Terri is concerned "love."
It would be interesting to see how dedicated and "in love" his girlfriend would remain if Michael S. should ever end up in the condition Terri did.

 

[tybee204]

Michael Shaivo only controlled the parents visitation after they violated a Court order and released pictures and videos to the press.

Not initually treating the urinary infection was the Doctors recommendation not Michael Shiavos.

 

[ScorpioGal]

I have no interest in anything Michael Shiavo has to say.

I'm sure that Michael Schiavo has no interest in whatever we have to say about it, either.

I have a living will, a health care proxy and heaven help the person who stands in my husbands way when he tries to carry out my orders.

It's a shame that in this day and age of "enlightenment"???, Michael's only option was to deny food and water in order to prevent his dead wife's body from continuing on without her.

As my father said on his death bed, as he was dying from cancer, "WE TREAT ANIMALS BETTER THAN THIS". He was so right. For all the chemo and radiation they pumped into his body, he still died anyway. In fact, the doctors told him 2 years before, that he would last 2 years. Instead of a pleasant quick death, it was a painfully long and lingering death. If I could have, I would have ended it for him myself.

Our cherished animal will be gently put out of their misery. Our loved ones we will allow to linger and suffer, in my opinion, the ultimate selfish act.

Dr. Kevorkian, my hero!

 

[dakini]

My father in law died recently. He lived through the Schiavo debacle. When he was no longer hungry and not processing food well he refused a feeding tube.

He eventually fell into a coma and died peacefully in his sleep. Thank goodness he was conscious enough to indicate his preferences.

The family, his wife and daughters, honored his wishes when he was no longer conscious.

Some folks in the country on the most extreme edge of the "right to life" scale will not rest until they can force everyone's family to put a feeding tube in..

 

[Details]

Maybe he was the dedicated husband the first year or two but that all came to a halt. From what the people that took care of Terri have said Michael S. refused to even let them send Terri to the hospital to have a urinary track infections tended to. For years Terri went without any kind of "best care" or any kind of rehab at all.

I don't think the good Lord looked at Michael S. as single while Terri was still alive. The law didn't either. Maybe he convinced himself that he was but that still didn't make him single.

I believe Terri's family would have spent time every day with her if they had been allowed. Mr. Big Shot took care of that when he refused to let them visit
the majority of the time over the years. He controlled when they could and couldn't visit their daughter/sister. He controlled Terri's medical care. He had to control every aspect of Terri's life. IMO this man (?) will reap what he has sown in time. I don't call anything that he did where Terri is concerned "love."
It would be interesting to see how dedicated and "in love" his girlfriend would remain if Michael S. should ever end up in the condition Terri did.

He continued to visit regularly all the way until the end - he lived in the hospice for the last weeks. He was a more frequent visitor the entire time than the Schindlers - and they were free to visit pretty nearly any time - with very few exceptions (Tybee already addressed that). They weren't there. The quality of her care was found in the autopsy, and how long she survived after feeding was discontinued - both extremely high, no bed sores, something that indicates quite a high quality of care all the way through, quite extraordinary for a PVS patient that long comatose.

As to what the good Lord may have thought - I think that's a matter for him to decide. Myself, if I believe in a compassionate and just Lord, I don't think he forced Terri to remain confined to that living corpse. Terri was dead, I think in the Lords eyes (the Bible was not written in a time where this kind of medical miracle was even possible). There was a breathing body left behind, but Terri herself was dead. Michael knew it, even Terri's family seems to have known it - they encouraged Michael to date, and were quite happy with him while he was dating - until he made a decision they opposed.

For love - if my husband did that for me, I'd consider it love above and beyond anything I could possibly expect - to put so much of his life on hold to honor me, try to get me back, and finally make my final wishes executed - I would want nothing different, nothing more from him. Certainly NOT to remain celibate and alone when I was already gone. And NOT to let my family run all over him if they decided to oppose him in carrying out what I wanted.

 

[reb]

all i can say is that this man is nothing short of a SAINT for doing what he believed was the right, humane, dignified thing to do, that was also WHAT HE KNEW WERE HIS WIFE'S WISHES... in the face of so much hostile, psychotic hatred and oppostition. isn't it funny that those who seem so bizarrely obsessed with "LIFE" seem to know (nor do they care) nothing about the QUALITY of life, and how to treat other LIVING people in a humane and respectful way?? that those who seem to obsessed with OTHER peoples' lives seem unable to "get a life"...? and seem to be obsessively judgemental of other peoples' decisions about THEIR private lives (and their loved ones' lives)....?
i think this whole absurd debacle only proved that there is something very, VERY wrong with this country, mentally... if there is a group of extremists who are going to demonize a person for allowing their spouse- who will never recover and will live in a persistent vegetative state for the rest of their lives (and i would not wish that on my worst enemy, much less someone i loved!!)- to die with dignity, in a peaceful environment, among loved ones. what more could one ask for?

(and i thought religious people weren't afraid of death....? who knew?!)

those people should be ASHAMED for dressing up like clowns and carrying on, wailing, and engaging in mass hysteria, and threatening the man & hiw current family with VIOLENCE (!-- what sheer hypocrisy!)... when they could have spent their time helping others who would have been VERY grateful and desperately needed their help.
and are any of these people volunteering and helping out any of the millions of disabled persons out there? why did they only care about terri, what about others who really DO need a spokesperson, or need assistance, or an advocate? or did they all just go back home and turn on CNN & the 700 club to feed their "news candy" addiction?

you can't help but wonder.

 

[Hbgchick]

That's good, but there are always edge conditions. And young healthy people will always not think about these things, and fail to have living wills. In a living will, there is always a decision maker, because the person writing the living will is also not a doctor, and also doesn't know everything about the conditions and treatments - let alone what new treatments might come along in the decades before the living will is required. The real question is what are you willing to live with, when do you want to quit, and that's a very difficult intention to get down in writing precisely. I've had this conversation, and there are just so many odd cases; if you are probably going to die, but there's a 0.00000001% chance of a full recovery - but if we don't pull the plug now, it won't be possible to pull it later; or you probably won't die, but will be brain dead; or you will have the intelligence of a moron and no memories; or you will have significant brain damage, and will live in constant pain in a hospital room; etc. There are too many cases to enumerate every possibility, and with every single case, there are the probabilities - how likely is each outcome, what percentage chance of a mediocre outcome is worth trying for, etc. I hope I have enough of a feel for what my step-mom wants to execute her wishes if the time ever comes, but somehow, as much as we have discussed this, I don't really think it'll be something we discussed that is what really happens.

The law changes, medicine changes - it's just never going to be as simple as writing down what you want so your family doesn't have any decisions. I think a group of at least 3 doctors who know the case and work in the correct area of medicine, and let's say a 3/4 majority must agree - if it's 50/50, don't do it. Could even go to 90%, or higher. It needs to be managable, but not so easy that too many mistakes are made.

Unfortunately I don't know if there's any "sure and perfect way" to end a life and be absolutely, unequivocally certain that there is no possibility that the person might not hop up out of bed one day and say Hallelujah! I'm cured!! That's what makes us human I guess, that little bit of faith that hangs on and hangs on and says "but...what if just this one time...God decided to make MY loved one the miracle?".

I think it needs to be a combination of all of the things we mentioned, people need to have their wishes known, there need to be at least three specialty physicians consulted and those physicians need to work with the family (and provide counseling) to them so that they concur, or are at least comfortable with, the decision of the physicians. My concern is if you let the doctors just go ahead and make the decision without the support of the family, you could have the same situation in reverse.
.

 

[Shadow205]

Posted January 21, 2006, 5:09 PM EST

CLEARWATER -- A man whose brain-damaged wife was at the center of a lengthy end-of-life case that captured the world's attention has applied for a marriage license, nearly a year after her death.

Michael Schiavo and Jodi Centonze applied for a marriage license Friday in Pinellas County, the St. Petersburg Times reported.
She listed her last marriage as ending in divorce on March 29, 1989. He listed his as ending in death on March 31, 2005.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/state/orl-bk-schiavo1story012106,0,3459891.story?coll=orl-home-headlines

 

[j2mirish]

Posted January 21, 2006, 5:09 PM EST

CLEARWATER -- A man whose brain-damaged wife was at the center of a lengthy end-of-life case that captured the world's attention has applied for a marriage license, nearly a year after her death.

Michael Schiavo and Jodi Centonze applied for a marriage license Friday in Pinellas County, the St. Petersburg Times reported.
She listed her last marriage as ending in divorce on March 29, 1989. He listed his as ending in death on March 31, 2005.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/state/orl-bk-schiavo1story012106,0,3459891.story?coll=orl-home-headlines

good for him

 

[Beyond Belief]

I really had forgotten about him.

 

[michelle]

I really had forgotten about him.

me too.....

 

[Jean]

I am not surprised as they have been together a long time and have children. I don't see any reason for them not to marry. Good for them.

 

[Amraann]

good for him

Exactly !!!

 

[Bobbisangel]

What's the rush? They must be common law by now with kids that are half grown. He makes me want to :sick:

 

[michelle]

What's the rush? They must be common law by now with kids that are half grown. He makes me want to :sick:

LOL..

 

[deanws]

:doh: I am sooooo going to stay out of this thread.......:chicken: :chicken: :chicken:

 

[Sally]

What a Prince.

 

[IdahoMom]

:silenced: :angel:

 

[Cheetah]

What's the rush? They must be common law by now with kids that are half grown. He makes me want to :sick:

Florida does not recognize common law marriages...no such thing here!