For Those Who Do Think Avery was Framed & Evidence Planted - Discuss

[Tinkerella]

Thank you so much for that, Missy! I just made a cup of tea and started a fire. The kids and husband went to bed, dishes are done and laundry caught up with 3 days left on my vacation and I think I'll curl up and take a stab at this.
I really appreciate the links. It will make it easier to get a hold of it all

 

[Saul Vesalot]

Hi everyone,

Long time listener, first time caller. I won't likely post much, but I have been lurking for weeks.

The one thing that has weighed on my mind the most for the past couple days is this:
"Why did the police do an intentionally poor job of investigating this crime?"

I'm not just talking about honest mistakes, but conscious decisions the police made that compromised their case. This to me is the most compelling argument for framing. They just did such a bad job on purpose I can't explain.

By 'on purpose' I mean things like not changing gloves before touching the RAV4 hood latch leading to the infamous "sweat DNA". The crime scene techs know to change gloves after touching something at a crime scene.

They knew what they were supposed to do and they intentionally did something else. I have to imagine that after processing enough crime scenes, removing gloves becomes something you do almost instinctively.

There are so many instances where they knowingly handled this crime improperly that I just can't help but feel something BIG was going on. Or maybe it was a bunch of SMALL things. (Maybe it wasn't a conspiracy as much as a whole bunch of people nudging here and there without any real collusion?)

Just for clarity's sake, I think it is more likely than not that Steven Avery was the killer, but I feel the police/prosecution made such a mess of the situation that he and Dassey should be released.

 

[vanay]

Hi everyone,

Long time listener, first time caller. I won't likely post much, but I have been lurking for weeks.

The one thing that has weighed on my mind the most for the past couple days is this:
"Why did the police do an intentionally poor job of investigating this crime?"

I'm not just talking about honest mistakes, but conscious decisions the police made that compromised their case. This to me is the most compelling argument for framing. They just did such a bad job on purpose I can't explain.

By 'on purpose' I mean things like not changing gloves before touching the RAV4 hood latch leading to the infamous "sweat DNA". The crime scene techs know to change gloves after touching something at a crime scene.

They knew what they were supposed to do and they intentionally did something else. I have to imagine that after processing enough crime scenes, removing gloves becomes something you do almost instinctively.

There are so many instances where they knowingly handled this crime improperly that I just can't help but feel something BIG was going on. Or maybe it was a bunch of SMALL things. (Maybe it wasn't a conspiracy as much as a whole bunch of people nudging here and there without any real collusion?)

Just for clarity's sake, I think it is more likely than not that Steven Avery was the killer, but I feel the police/prosecution made such a mess of the situation that he and Dassey should be released.

Hi Saul. Welcome ✋️great first post, and i mostly agree, except not convinced it's SA at all.



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[BigCityAccountant]

Hi everyone,

Long time listener, first time caller. I won't likely post much, but I have been lurking for weeks.

The one thing that has weighed on my mind the most for the past couple days is this:
"Why did the police do an intentionally poor job of investigating this crime?"

I'm not just talking about honest mistakes, but conscious decisions the police made that compromised their case. This to me is the most compelling argument for framing. They just did such a bad job on purpose I can't explain.

By 'on purpose' I mean things like not changing gloves before touching the RAV4 hood latch leading to the infamous "sweat DNA". The crime scene techs know to change gloves after touching something at a crime scene.

They knew what they were supposed to do and they intentionally did something else. I have to imagine that after processing enough crime scenes, removing gloves becomes something you do almost instinctively.

There are so many instances where they knowingly handled this crime improperly that I just can't help but feel something BIG was going on. Or maybe it was a bunch of SMALL things. (Maybe it wasn't a conspiracy as much as a whole bunch of people nudging here and there without any real collusion?)

Just for clarity's sake, I think it is more likely than not that Steven Avery was the killer, but I feel the police/prosecution made such a mess of the situation that he and Dassey should be released.

.
Saul :welcome4:!!

So you are a long term lurker, first time poster huh? Well, I'm glad you weighed in on the discussion. Love your first line and your out of the box thinking~~that is just what we need here~~different perspectives.

You are absolutely right~~I think in all the posts I've read~~you have expressed what most of us here on these threads having been saying all along~~but you so eloquently stated it.

I'll try and answer your nagging question though, but it is just my opinion. It is almost like mob thinking. This is a very very small sleepy town. Mischicot is not Manitowoc for sure. The Avery's were the town's junk men~~they were dirty, uneducated, basically the town trash, disposable trash no less. They definitely were not the Randant's adding to the value of the community. When SA was exonerated, he brought disgrace to the town and town folk. He brought this little sleepy town into the spotlight and not in a good way. Not in a $36M dollar way! These were hardworking middle class people who were now going to pay this lower class citizen a lot of money that inevitable was going to cost all of the citizens more money in the form of higher taxes. Add to that, with the money he could join the local golf club, if he so desired. They had already witnessed him go out and buy a very very nice truck. With $36m, he could join the upper echelon of society, whether they liked it or not. They didn't want him there~~he was the trash man.

So, you have all of these town folks who have grown up with each other with their biases against the Avery family. Prejudiced if you will. Adding to the situation, you have three boys growing up being the outcasts of the town who get into trouble, break the law on occasion. Are not nice to women at ALL. This gets around town adding to the prejudice. So, you have all of these LE, who have been taught from a very young age to dislike the Avery's. IMHO, I think it was that prejudice that fueled their desire to run rogue over this crime scene. I truly believe all of LE in MCSD believed he was responsible and therefore set out to prove it by any means possible.

Of course, all JMHO.

 

[IDK]

.
Saul :welcome4:!!

So you are a long term lurker, first time poster huh? Well, I'm glad you weighed in on the discussion. Love your first line and your out of the box thinking~~that is just what we need here~~different perspectives.

You are absolutely right~~I think in all the posts I've read~~you have expressed what most of us here on these threads having been saying all along~~but you so eloquently stated it.

I'll try and answer your nagging question though, but it is just my opinion. It is almost like mob thinking. This is a very very small sleepy town. Mischicot is not Manitowoc for sure. The Avery's were the town's junk men~~they were dirty, uneducated, basically the town trash, disposable trash no less. They definitely were not the Randant's adding to the value of the community. When SA was exonerated, he brought disgrace to the town and town folk. He brought this little sleepy town into the spotlight and not in a good way. Not in a $36M dollar way! These were hardworking middle class people who were now going to pay this lower class citizen a lot of money that inevitable was going to cost all of the citizens more money in the form of higher taxes. Add to that, with the money he could join the local golf club, if he so desired. They had already witnessed him go out and buy a very very nice truck. With $36m, he could join the upper echelon of society, whether they liked it or not. They didn't want him there~~he was the trash man.

So, you have all of these town folks who have grown up with each other with their biases against the Avery family. Prejudiced if you will. Adding to the situation, you have three boys growing up being the outcasts of the town who get into trouble, break the law on occasion. Are not nice to women at ALL. This gets around town adding to the prejudice. So, you have all of these LE, who have been taught from a very young age to dislike the Avery's. IMHO, I think it was that prejudice that fueled their desire to run rogue over this crime scene. I truly believe all of LE in MCSD believed he was responsible and therefore set out to prove it by any means possible.

Of course, all JMHO.

:yourock:

 

[missy1974]

Hi everyone,

Long time listener, first time caller. I won't likely post much, but I have been lurking for weeks.

The one thing that has weighed on my mind the most for the past couple days is this:
"Why did the police do an intentionally poor job of investigating this crime?"

I'm not just talking about honest mistakes, but conscious decisions the police made that compromised their case. This to me is the most compelling argument for framing. They just did such a bad job on purpose I can't explain.

By 'on purpose' I mean things like not changing gloves before touching the RAV4 hood latch leading to the infamous "sweat DNA". The crime scene techs know to change gloves after touching something at a crime scene.

They knew what they were supposed to do and they intentionally did something else. I have to imagine that after processing enough crime scenes, removing gloves becomes something you do almost instinctively.

There are so many instances where they knowingly handled this crime improperly that I just can't help but feel something BIG was going on. Or maybe it was a bunch of SMALL things. (Maybe it wasn't a conspiracy as much as a whole bunch of people nudging here and there without any real collusion?)

Just for clarity's sake, I think it is more likely than not that Steven Avery was the killer, but I feel the police/prosecution made such a mess of the situation that he and Dassey should be released.

:wagon:

I hope you continue to post! It sure is nice to read some new perspectives

 

[dexter75]

.
Saul :welcome4:!!

So you are a long term lurker, first time poster huh? Well, I'm glad you weighed in on the discussion. Love your first line and your out of the box thinking~~that is just what we need here~~different perspectives.

You are absolutely right~~I think in all the posts I've read~~you have expressed what most of us here on these threads having been saying all along~~but you so eloquently stated it.

I'll try and answer your nagging question though, but it is just my opinion. It is almost like mob thinking. This is a very very small sleepy town. Mischicot is not Manitowoc for sure. The Avery's were the town's junk men~~they were dirty, uneducated, basically the town trash, disposable trash no less. They definitely were not the Randant's adding to the value of the community. When SA was exonerated, he brought disgrace to the town and town folk. He brought this little sleepy town into the spotlight and not in a good way. Not in a $36M dollar way! These were hardworking middle class people who were now going to pay this lower class citizen a lot of money that inevitable was going to cost all of the citizens more money in the form of higher taxes. Add to that, with the money he could join the local golf club, if he so desired. They had already witnessed him go out and buy a very very nice truck. With $36m, he could join the upper echelon of society, whether they liked it or not. They didn't want him there~~he was the trash man.

So, you have all of these town folks who have grown up with each other with their biases against the Avery family. Prejudiced if you will. Adding to the situation, you have three boys growing up being the outcasts of the town who get into trouble, break the law on occasion. Are not nice to women at ALL. This gets around town adding to the prejudice. So, you have all of these LE, who have been taught from a very young age to dislike the Avery's. IMHO, I think it was that prejudice that fueled their desire to run rogue over this crime scene. I truly believe all of LE in MCSD believed he was responsible and therefore set out to prove it by any means possible.

Of course, all JMHO.

BCA,
I love you❤
I love this post.
Nice work😉
JMO

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[dexter75]

Hi Saul. Welcome ✋️great first post, and i mostly agree, except not convinced it's SA at all.



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Same😉

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[dexter75]

Hi everyone,

Long time listener, first time caller. I won't likely post much, but I have been lurking for weeks.

The one thing that has weighed on my mind the most for the past couple days is this:
"Why did the police do an intentionally poor job of investigating this crime?"

I'm not just talking about honest mistakes, but conscious decisions the police made that compromised their case. This to me is the most compelling argument for framing. They just did such a bad job on purpose I can't explain.

By 'on purpose' I mean things like not changing gloves before touching the RAV4 hood latch leading to the infamous "sweat DNA". The crime scene techs know to change gloves after touching something at a crime scene.

They knew what they were supposed to do and they intentionally did something else. I have to imagine that after processing enough crime scenes, removing gloves becomes something you do almost instinctively.

There are so many instances where they knowingly handled this crime improperly that I just can't help but feel something BIG was going on. Or maybe it was a bunch of SMALL things. (Maybe it wasn't a conspiracy as much as a whole bunch of people nudging here and there without any real collusion?)

Just for clarity's sake, I think it is more likely than not that Steven Avery was the killer, but I feel the police/prosecution made such a mess of the situation that he and Dassey should be released.

Excellent first post!
Welcome to Websleuths😊
I hope you continue to offer your thoughts & opinions with all of us as Zellner works her magic😉 ( hahahaha! All in good fun! If you've been following along a while you know I'm a fan❤ )

I too agree with everything you have stated in your first post other than Avery did it. I've tried to play it out a few different ways ...BUT lol..I then say to myself " ok. so Avery killed her even though she was being harassed that day with phone calls. Even though SOMEONE was sure those calls were deleted. Who was it? Do we know yet? And let's say SA did it..WHY would LE need to be sloppy or plant evidence? He's not a smart guy. IMO, he would have left plenty behind..I mean he CALLED Auto Trader to say " hey send her out " ya know? Steve's behavior when under a microscope has always spoke volumes to me. He's always admitted to what he's done, even passing up a chance to do less time in the PB case because he wouldn't confess to something he didn't do.
I look at him & honestly see one of those guys that are to ignorant to lie.
( didn't want to be mean and say dumb..I know that sounds terrible, I'm sorry)
Glad to have you here Saul😉

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[dexter75]

:wagon:

I hope you continue to post! It sure is nice to read some new perspectives

Ditto😉
I love to read other takes on this case😊

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[dexter75]

Popping in to say I'm here.
I tried watching MaM, but I kinda...quit mid episode 2 or 3 or something.
I was rolling my eyes too much , I thought I was going to give myself sprained optical nerves.
100% honesty here, I need to read everything I can get my hands on about this before I make an informed opinion...but from the little I have read (outside MaM, since I didn't watch it all the way through) I can't get past certain details that scream "FRAMED".
So, be patient with me. I'm going to dive in!

Welcome to Websleuths!!
I admire your ambition😉 IMO you are in for one heck of a journey!
It's so worth it to read accurate information though, you'll be so glad you did😉
Looking forward to hearing from you!
If you have any questions you know where to find us😉
Missy & BCA are pretty great at answering questions😉
CoolJ, Jaiddie, Safeguard, IDK & proudfootz seem pretty well informed too, IMO & I believe they can all point you to where transcripts and reports can be found.
Enjoy!
FWIW I think Avery was framed as well! I've read everything I can get a hold of😉lol!

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[dexter75]

.
Saul :welcome4:!!

So you are a long term lurker, first time poster huh? Well, I'm glad you weighed in on the discussion. Love your first line and your out of the box thinking~~that is just what we need here~~different perspectives.

You are absolutely right~~I think in all the posts I've read~~you have expressed what most of us here on these threads having been saying all along~~but you so eloquently stated it.

I'll try and answer your nagging question though, but it is just my opinion. It is almost like mob thinking. This is a very very small sleepy town. Mischicot is not Manitowoc for sure. The Avery's were the town's junk men~~they were dirty, uneducated, basically the town trash, disposable trash no less. They definitely were not the Randant's adding to the value of the community. When SA was exonerated, he brought disgrace to the town and town folk. He brought this little sleepy town into the spotlight and not in a good way. Not in a $36M dollar way! These were hardworking middle class people who were now going to pay this lower class citizen a lot of money that inevitable was going to cost all of the citizens more money in the form of higher taxes. Add to that, with the money he could join the local golf club, if he so desired. They had already witnessed him go out and buy a very very nice truck. With $36m, he could join the upper echelon of society, whether they liked it or not. They didn't want him there~~he was the trash man.

So, you have all of these town folks who have grown up with each other with their biases against the Avery family. Prejudiced if you will. Adding to the situation, you have three boys growing up being the outcasts of the town who get into trouble, break the law on occasion. Are not nice to women at ALL. This gets around town adding to the prejudice. So, you have all of these LE, who have been taught from a very young age to dislike the Avery's. IMHO, I think it was that prejudice that fueled their desire to run rogue over this crime scene. I truly believe all of LE in MCSD believed he was responsible and therefore set out to prove it by any means possible.

Of course, all JMHO.

My opinion too😉

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[dexter75]

Thank you so much for that, Missy! I just made a cup of tea and started a fire. The kids and husband went to bed, dishes are done and laundry caught up with 3 days left on my vacation and I think I'll curl up and take a stab at this.
I really appreciate the links. It will make it easier to get a hold of it all

Chuckled at this😁
This is just what I do😉 Late at night when the house is quiet & hubby and daughter are asleep is MY time😊
My trouble is I tend to fall asleep mid-post..lol
Good luck😉

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[dexter75]

Popping in to say I'm here.
I tried watching MaM, but I kinda...quit mid episode 2 or 3 or something.
I was rolling my eyes too much , I thought I was going to give myself sprained optical nerves.
100% honesty here, I need to read everything I can get my hands on about this before I make an informed opinion...but from the little I have read (outside MaM, since I didn't watch it all the way through) I can't get past certain details that scream "FRAMED".
So, be patient with me. I'm going to dive in!

Welcome welcome welcome❤
( love your username btw )


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[Saul Vesalot]

Thanks for the welcoming everyone and welcome everyone else, even people who have been here for years.

.
Add to that, with the money he could join the local golf club, if he so desired. They had already witnessed him go out and buy a very very nice truck. With $36m, he could join the upper echelon of society, whether they liked it or not. They didn't want him there~~he was the trash man.

That would probably make a decent British sitcom. Imagine a Steven Avery type golfing along side the members of the Royal Family...he could show up to the golf course in a bath towel and they'd just think he was a Scotsman in a kilt...



You post is exactly why I would assume they'd do the best job of their lives. If you're going to play in the Superbowl, you don't show up to the game hung over.

This is part of what baffles me about their performance... it was so bad and they could have broken him so thoroughly if they did a good job and if he really did it. And the police would be giant heroes for solving such a big case and chopping the lawsuit off at the knees.

As it stands, they have brought shame to their own names, their department, and how many people watched MaM and thought "I hope I never have to drive through Manitowoc County"? I don't even think the hardcore Steven Did It crowd think the police did a good job, per se.

So I wonder if the poor performance was because they thought it would be open and shut, if they thought no one would notice, or if something sketchy was going on that dampened the sense of professionalism that was needed. Or maybe they are just THAT bad at their jobs...?


The shoddy police work is what kept this case in the spotlight and if that is causing the Halbach family (and friends) continued harm, that is squarely and entirely on the shoulders of the police. I guess that is why it was the focus of my first posts.

 

[dexter75]

Thanks for the welcoming everyone and welcome everyone else, even people who have been here for years.



That would probably make a decent British sitcom. Imagine a Steven Avery type golfing along side the members of the Royal Family...he could show up to the golf course in a bath towel and they'd just think he was a Scotsman in a kilt...



You post is exactly why I would assume they'd do the best job of their lives. If you're going to play in the Superbowl, you don't show up to the game hung over.

This is part of what baffles me about their performance... it was so bad and they could have broken him so thoroughly if they did a good job and if he really did it. And the police would be giant heroes for solving such a big case and chopping the lawsuit off at the knees.

As it stands, they have brought shame to their own names, their department, and how many people watched MaM and thought "I hope I never have to drive through Manitowoc County"? I don't even think the hardcore Steven Did It crowd think the police did a good job, per se.

So I wonder if the poor performance was because they thought it would be open and shut, if they thought no one would notice, or if something sketchy was going on that dampened the sense of professionalism that was needed. Or maybe they are just THAT bad at their jobs...?


The shoddy police work is what kept this case in the spotlight and if that is causing the Halbach family (and friends) continued harm, that is squarely and entirely on the shoulders of the police. I guess that is why it was the focus of my first posts.

You're great😉 You're posts are great😁
As I sit here this morning LAUGHING SO HARD I about had coffee squirting out my nose!
A great comedy indeed😂😂😂
Picturing a Charlie Chaplin type 35mm silent film.. music only😉
( all are on the golf course & along comes Avery in towel, lol!! Nice )
Excellent points made once again re; LE
Enjoy your day everyone😊

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[proudfootz]

There is always room for incompetence in any endeavor, but it certainly would appear that in Manitowoc they went above and beyond the call of duty.

One thing that sticks out in my mind is that they deliberately kept Manitowoc County Coroner Debra Kakatsch off site when the charred bones were discovered. She found out about the discovery on television, and when she arrived she was blocked from the scene and performing her duties.

That this evidence was not collected properly or even documented in any reliable fashion renders it much more dubious than it should have been.

Kakatsch was not allowed to testify as it was deemed knowing this might 'confuse' the jury to know that a competent forensic specialist was barred from investigating the discovery of this evidence.

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...55/Jury-Trial-Transcript-Day-19-2007Mar08.pdf

The side bar where the witness is ultimately dismissed begins on page 205.

 

[dexter75]

There is always room for incompetence in any endeavor, but it certainly would appear that in Manitowoc they went above and beyond the call of duty.

One thing that sticks out in my mind is that they deliberately kept Manitowoc County Coroner Debra Kakatsch off site when the charred bones were discovered. She found out about the discovery on television, and when she arrived she was blocked from the scene and performing her duties.

That this evidence was not collected properly or even documented in any reliable fashion renders it much more dubious than it should have been.

Kakatsch was not allowed to testify as it was deemed knowing this might 'confuse' the jury to know that a competent forensic specialist was barred from investigating the discovery of this evidence.

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...55/Jury-Trial-Transcript-Day-19-2007Mar08.pdf

The side bar where the witness is ultimately dismissed begins on page 205.

Who does that anyway? In such a small town this department goes OUT OF THEIR WAY TO NOT NOTIFY THEIR OWN CORONER?
Then BLOCK HER FROM THE SCENE?
And Avery is suspicious??
Sigh

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[proudfootz]

If my wife or sister was the victim of such a crime, I'd sure want the most qualified personnel available on the investigation.

 

[dexter75]

If my wife or sister was the victim of such a crime, I'd sure want the most qualified personnel available on the investigation.

I'd demand it.

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