Forensic reports in

[Kimmer]

One thing that none of us know yet, but I would guess the members of the GJ do is the results of the DNA, and I am not talking about the hair, I am refering to the stain in the trunk, if that was indeed decomp fluid and they are able to isolate Caylee's Dna from that (which I think they can) then it is game over, no more questions, plus the fact that the hair did have a root attached they will also be able to pull DNA from that...Just remember that the report is preliminary and dated in July, Since this is Oct I feel fairly certain that LE has a whole lot more that we have no idea of.

Kimmer

 

[parabeagle]

Okay, I am just now finishing the report and trying to keep up with this thread, so please excuse me if this has been said already, but by far, one of my "favorite" quotes from the Report is: "Previous reports of a decomposing pizza found in the vehicle trunk were not true and this was incorrectly stated in the previous report." and "...even though no pizza was actually found in the Florida vehicle..." My question is this, I cannot recall if CA said that they removed the pizza before it was taken to be analyzed...if so, that will be her response to this. What did CA say happened to this Mystic Pizza?

 

[Chezhire]

I am SHOCKED and COMPLETELY TAKEN ABACK that anyone would conclude that too much time and thought is being given to this case.

We'd be happy to write you an excusing note for DH! :wink:

Actually, we need your DH and Insomnia's cousin, the forensic pathologist to get here on the double.:woohoo::woohoo:

DH also has degree in microbiology (then he went on to med school,) so would you draft me a *very* compelling note?

 

[marmar]

*respectfully snipped for space*

He also asked who *I* did in.... Nice.

He doesn't follow this case at all but said it's obvios to him that *whomever this Caylee is* she is dead, he body was in the car without being placed in any bag or anything for 2-3 days and choloroform was used either on her or in the trunk. Hair won't normally have cloroform in it even in trace amounts due to death so unless a trace amount was spilled on it it was chemically induced as in ingested prior to death, even more than once.

He said he'd like to see the fiber samples which would most likely contain skin samples from fluids that they can pull DNA from.


Ok, that's what I got before he had to leave.


Hope this helps!

The part bolded, that is hilarious. Thank you for posting this information. And thank you to your cousin.

Oh and Hi neighbor! :wave:

 

[Marina2]

Originally Posted by sweetwater View Post
Deprived oxygen type of decompositional event- hmm. Does this lead to Caylee having been placed in a sealed container?

I 'think' gases formed from anaerobic conditions might mean looking at that a little differently. I know that there are bacteria in our bodies that grow in 'no oxygen' conditions. Found on internet:

Anaerobic bacteria are intolerant of O2, replicating at low oxidation-reduction potential sites, such as necrotic, devascularized tissue. In humans, anaerobic organisms are among the normal flora (especially of the GI tract, mouth, and vagina) Anaerobic infections are typically suppurative, causing abscess formation and tissue necrosis, often the result of thrombophlebitis and/or gas formation. Many anaerobes produce enzymes that devitalize tissue as well as some of the most potent paralytic toxins known. Clues to the presence of anaerobic infection include gas formation in tissue, foul feculent odors, and abscess formation or tissue necrosis.

I realize this is talking about bacteria in our bodies, but include this knowledge when speaking of air samples from the car. I think the air samples indicating anaerobic 'ingredients' could mean the chemicals came from the decomposition of human body bacteria. Not that the trunk had no oxygen, or that the body was in an airtight container.

But maybe I'm wrong and just need to understand these test results better.

You are right. The anaerobic environment was created within the body as it began to decompose, not outside the body as in no oxygen in trunk or plastic bag etc. This occurs during early decomposition.

 

[Noway]

I know you guys have talked about garbage bags, as has LP-I was sold on the idea of a picnic cooler or beer cooler...but now I am thinking a small duffel? There should be some kind of impression if poor Caylee was in fabric decomposing and it leaked onto the trunk...does that make sense?

This is not fact, but I read at one point that a small (not sure what that would mean) suitcase was missing from the Anthony home. I don't know where ... but when Lee picked up Casey's stuff, I thought the interest was not only in her belongings but what her belongings were in.

 

[headndownstream]

K - this is all helping a lot. I had a fishhook stuck in my thumb once (right after I pulled it out of a saltwater trout and got so excited about the size of my catch that I stuck it in my own thumb :doh: ) and I developed an anaerobic infection that required specific, sulpha based, antibiotics to clear up. Is this an example of what you are referencing?

Yep, bacteria that grow in low oxygen conditions got down in your puncture wound and had a field day. Anaerobic infection is indeed very serious, glad you went to the Dr for treatment!

 

[doubletrouble]

wow...fastest moving thread ive seen in awhile...is the 2,6 days for sure?

 

[Dolce171]

To actually see the words in writing in this report - made me feel sick to my stomach. Literally....ill and it gave me the chills.

I can only imagine how the GJ must have felt when they were presented with "all" of the facts ....... **shaking my head** ...horrible nightmares!!

 

[parabeagle]

"Florida vehicle interior showed common hydrocarbons and significant amounts of xylenes present". I googled xylenes and found many resources, a quote from the Dept of Health & Human Services website (http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts71.html#bookmark02) says, in part:

How can xylene affect children?
The effects of xylene have not been studied in children, but it is likely that they would be similar to those seen in exposed adults. Although there is no direct evidence, children may be more sensitive to acute inhalation exposure than adults because their narrower airways would be more sensitive to swelling effects.

Studies of unborn animals indicate that high concentrations of xylene may cause increased numbers of deaths, and delayed growth and development. In many instances, these same concentrations also cause damage to the mothers. We do not know if xylene harms the unborn child if the mother is exposed to low levels of xylene during pregnancy.

Still looking into the other hydrocarbons...

 

[gigi331]

While reading through the newly released FBI report and many of the comments here, all I keep thinking about is that old platitude, "I'll never harm a hair on your head." And it makes my stomach feel queezy!

I pray Caylee had no idea of what was happening to her . . .

Or what about the one....."You would let your kids get away with murder."
hmmmm....

 

[Oakley]

They were looking at diferent samples. I think the hair showed trace amounts of Chloroform, which would be normal for decomposition. The carpet and air showed significant.

As far as the "Low oxygen environment decomposition". I tend to always follow the simplest path. The body was in a big plastic trash bag (much like LP hypothesized awile back).

(Bolding mine)

This would explain the seemingly contradictory initial media reports of "trace" vs "significant" levels of Chloroform, which I never could understand. Now it makes sense.

 

[4Siamese]

What the prosecution could infer from this evidence:

They (the criminalists) find one hair in the trunk of the sunfire usually driven by Casey (but accessed by members of her family). The hair (upon microscopic analysis) is indistinguishable from the hair on Caylee’s hairbrush. Typically, when viewed under a microscope, hairs are easily seen as being different in length, color, thickness, evidence of bleaching, and so on. The hair towards the root shows what is known as a “death band” or dark band that appears when a human dies and decomposition begins. To see “whose” hair it is the remaining “debris” is sent for MtDNA testing. Mitochondrial DNA is DNA that is passed down from female to female (and so Cindy’s mitochondrial DNA would match Casey and Caylee). The mitochondrial DNA comes back as a match to Casey (and Caylee). As Casey and Cindy are alive and accounted for, then it would lead us to believe that Caylee is in fact the donor of the hair and deceased.

Then we have heard about the stink in the trunk. The tow yard guy smelled it and likened it to a suicide he’d smelled previously. George had smelled it and admitted he did not like it at all. Cindy told the 911 operator that there smelled like there was a body in the damn car. I think we can agree that the sunfire was reeking. Air tests are performed by the Body Farm to determine the chemicals in the air of the trunk. The chemicals come back showing: 1) chloroform, 2) evidence of human decomposition (especially in its early stages).

The Body Farm rules *out* the chemicals found during pizza and animal decomposition.
The Body Farm narrows down and focuses only on the chemicals omitted during the human decomposition and they find way over the normal amount in that trunk (to put it lightly). They also run their tests against control samples to see which chemicals are naturally occurring in a sunfire trunk. Their opinion is that there was human decomposition in that sunfire’s trunk. We have heard no evidence of the sunfire being used to transport dead bodies (like a morgue van) or any logical reason for there to be human decomp in there.

It is also noted that the chloroform found (perhaps this was the “stain”) is more concentrated (perhaps this is the wrong term) in the spare tire cover area. Four areas or swatches were tested from the tire cover and they all come up positive for chloroform. The trunk “liner” area shows “consistent with chloroform” which one could assume is a less concentrated or definitive amount. Why would the chloroform be less concentrated in the trunk’s liner but more concentrated on the spare tire and spare tire cover? Perhaps was the trunk cleaned but the spare tire area missed?

So, to sum, we have 1) a hair indistinguishable from Caylee with a death band in the trunk, 2) a stink of decomposition in the trunk, 3) Air tests showing chloroform and evidence of human decomposition, and 4) physical samples showing chloroform on different parts of the trunk. What did I miss?

***

Looks like you've covered it all. Thanks!

 

[Blink34]

What the prosecution could infer from this evidence:

They (the criminalists) find one hair in the trunk of the sunfire usually driven by Casey (but accessed by members of her family). The hair (upon microscopic analysis) is indistinguishable from the hair on Caylee’s hairbrush. Typically, when viewed under a microscope, hairs are easily seen as being different in length, color, thickness, evidence of bleaching, and so on. The hair towards the root shows what is known as a “death band” or dark band that appears when a human dies and decomposition begins. To see “whose” hair it is the remaining “debris” is sent for MtDNA testing. Mitochondrial DNA is DNA that is passed down from female to female (and so Cindy’s mitochondrial DNA would match Casey and Caylee). The mitochondrial DNA comes back as a match to Casey (and Caylee). As Casey and Cindy are alive and accounted for, then it would lead us to believe that Caylee is in fact the donor of the hair and deceased.

Then we have heard about the stink in the trunk. The tow yard guy smelled it and likened it to a suicide he’d smelled previously. George had smelled it and admitted he did not like it at all. Cindy told the 911 operator that there smelled like there was a body in the damn car. I think we can agree that the sunfire was reeking. Air tests are performed by the Body Farm to determine the chemicals in the air of the trunk. The chemicals come back showing: 1) chloroform, 2) evidence of human decomposition (especially in its early stages).

The Body Farm rules *out* the chemicals found during pizza and animal decomposition.
The Body Farm narrows down and focuses only on the chemicals omitted during the human decomposition and they find way over the normal amount in that trunk (to put it lightly). They also run their tests against control samples to see which chemicals are naturally occurring in a sunfire trunk. Their opinion is that there was human decomposition in that sunfire’s trunk. We have heard no evidence of the sunfire being used to transport dead bodies (like a morgue van) or any logical reason for there to be human decomp in there.

It is also noted that the chloroform found (perhaps this was the “stain”) is more concentrated (perhaps this is the wrong term) in the spare tire cover area. Four areas or swatches were tested from the tire cover and they all come up positive for chloroform. The trunk “liner” area shows “consistent with chloroform” which one could assume is a less concentrated or definitive amount. Why would the chloroform be less concentrated in the trunk’s liner but more concentrated on the spare tire and spare tire cover? Perhaps was the trunk cleaned but the spare tire area missed?

So, to sum, we have 1) a hair indistinguishable from Caylee with a death band in the trunk, 2) a stink of decomposition in the trunk, 3) Air tests showing chloroform and evidence of human decomposition, and 4) physical samples showing chloroform on different parts of the trunk. What did I miss?

***

I would only add one consideration to your excellent and well laid out post. When you say "indistinguishable from Casey's as to the hair sample, I would clarify you make that statement based on the mtdna result. As it was considered VISUALLY distinguishable from Casey's as to it's similarity to Caylee's by color and length as testifed by Det. Melich. Lastly, it is distinguishable based on the death band, as Casey is alive..

 

[4oneluv]

I expect the cleaning fluid container has been analyzed and they have some sort of comparative analysis with the trunk interior.

The question will be-who scrubbed the trunk. No matter who did the cleaning, it looks bad, really bad.

I have never run anything over, but if I did, I would not have to clean the car interior, trunk or otherwise...good luck explaining that.
Pizza seems to be ruled out. What was decomposing? The spare tire?

The dress that was found, the underware that was found, they still have evidence that has not been released

 

[sweetwater]

talk to you all later-
Thanks!

 

[Chezhire]

K - this is all helping a lot. I had a fishhook stuck in my thumb once (right after I pulled it out of a saltwater trout and got so excited about the size of my catch that I stuck it in my own thumb :doh: ) and I developed an anaerobic infection that required specific, sulpha based, antibiotics to clear up. Is this an example of what you are referencing?

Yep, bacteria that grow in low oxygen conditions got down in your puncture wound and had a field day. Anaerobic infection is indeed very serious, glad you went to the Dr for treatment!

K - so help me again here: is the anaerobic bacteria that is produced by a decomposing body distinguishable from the anaerobic bacteria that was in my (very alive) thumb as a result of that pesky fishhook?

 

[PassTheMotrin]

Hey, did anyone else notice this from the Body Farm report?

Page 2 (1st paragraph re: air samples taken):

“An MSDS sheet, listing the ingredients of BlueStar, was obtained and evaluated by a chemist ... His conclusion was that the components of the product could not have contributed to the chemical signature obtained in these analyses.”


Page 8 (1st paragraph, re: estimating post-mortem interval from inorganic elements):

“The low concentration of sodium also indicates almost no contribution to the sample from the BlueStar product.”

WTH is BlueStar? Just wondering ...

Luminol - Used to find traces of blood by forensics.

 

[Blink34]

So true. Wonder when LE will test, if they haven't already? Do we have rulings from Judge S on all the pending motions yet? If we do, could someone please give me a link? I need to read them, especially his ruling on the future testing. The specific language he used/uses will be very important if LE hasn't already tested certain things....

As I understand it that motion was persuant to the neglect charge only.
The ones he delayed opinion on were mute when she was indicted pending bail revocation.

 

[butwhatif?]

Yes, Q22 thru 25, there were no apparant characteristics of decomp. However, specimens Q23 thru 28 have been preserved for future testing.

Its says 'for future comparison', not testing. They have all been preserved except for one that was used up or destroyed in the testing itself.