France - 5 shot, 4 dead in French Alps, may have int'l ramifications, 2012 #2

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Why have we never seen a picture of Sylvain Mollier? Thats my big question.
 
There was a bit on the BBC lunchtime news. The 'new witness' seems to be a forestry worker, who with colleagues saw a grey BMW with British plates, driven by a man with 'dark skin', possibly an accomplice of the motorbike guy (who he also saw).
 
Maillaud saying Mollier was 'lost' and in wrong place at right time. Yeah sure, less than ten miles from his home and where he lived all his days....

BBC (Government propaganda wing) mention Iraqi secret service or CIA or Mossad being involved, but no mention of MI6. That tells me MI6 did the hit.

My thoughts are Saad was a British asset about to go rogue, meeting up with Mollier who was working for Al-Queda (CIA Middle Eastern wing).

Both had to go.

PS If Zaid Al-Hilli was involved in any way to claim ALL the inheritance as the French and British want people to believe, then he would have had to make sure both young girls were bumped off too. Islamic law means they have inherited everything that Saad had claims to. Zaid would have been the sole benefactor had the two girls not survived.

PPS The programme did not mention how the Al-Hilli's are what can only be described as historical Iraqi elites. Saad and Zaids grandfather (he wasn't mentioned in programme) went to and from the states about 100 years ago under diplomatic status when the middle east was being carved up by the West.

PPPS Saad's mother in law was Iranian and was also from an elite background. Nothing is ever mentioned about her or her past.
 
marynice said:
Photo of Sylvain Mollier from Belgian newspaper.

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/960/Buiten...erwikkeld-in-strijd-om-miljoenenerfenis.dhtml
Click to expand...

That's not THE Sylvain Mollier in this case. There was a big hoo-ha in the British press when one of the newspapers published it at the time and was quickly removed.

Also, when I remember. The day after the shootings, the British government sent a 20 man delegation to the area. Not something they would do in a simple family dispute.
A D-Notice was also served on the Brit press very early in the investigation. I remember a few very good investigative journalists resorting to twitter claiming their hands were being tied behind their backs in trying to do their job.

Whole thing stunk from the get go.
 
French Alps killer 'had accomplice', BBC reports

http://www.france24.com/en/20131022-alps-killer-had-accomplice-bbc-reports

While the French murder investigation has made little ground, the BBC programme spoke to two key witnesses who both said they saw a motorbike and a BMW 4x4 near the scene.
Meanwhile, in his first media interview, a French forestry worker said he saw the motorcyclist pull into the parking spot where the Hilli family were murdered.

He described the motorcycle as white and black with panniers and said it was ridden by a man dressed in black.

He explained that his colleagues later talked to the man over a minor traffic violation, and described him as having "a bit of a beard".
Both witnesses also described seeing a grey British-licensed BMW X5 4x4 heading towards the scene, driven by a man described as "slightly bald" with "dark skin, no glasses".
 
I just watched the latest BBC program on this case and found it interesting.
Key points that I picked out, that either haven't been in the media before or haven't been discussed much, are:

- SM was on a racing bike and the road up to Le Martinet was not suitable for a racing bike due to potential damage to the wheels from potholes, etc. Both Brett Martin and Eric Maillaud mention this in the program.

- LE found "very important data" on SAH's computers that went well beyond anything he needed for his work. LE doesn't know if it was due to simple professional curiosity or if he was planning on selling it. While LE wouldn't say what kind of data they found, the BBC says they understand it wasn't 'defence related', only industrial designs. SAH's friend said that SAH didn't have clearance as he was only a contractor brought in to solve problems (of course this is what SAH would have told him, not necessarily first hand knowledge).

- SM lived only 10 miles away, yet LE believes he simply 'got lost' and kept going (in spite of the comments earlier about the risk of damaging his bike). Others have noted, and the show mentioned that SM's relatives have not allowed a photograph of him to be seen. [My question, is this true for BOTH sides of the family? This seems odd to me.]

- LE checked for links between SAH and SM and even Brett Martin in their investigation to determine if SM was riding to some secret meeting. Eric Maillaud said that they are fairly certain that SM was there my mistake. later he says that they are "convinced", but doesn't say why..other than the wrong place/wrong time comment over and over again (in spite of the 'inappropriate road for a racing bicycle).

- EM (french prosecutor) says he's heard claims that there was a conflict between SM and his future father-in-law, but "if all disputes ended in murder there would be a lot more of them". (hmmmm, he doesn't use tht is reasoning when talking about the feud between SAH and his brother ZAH.)

- EM confirmed that there have been 'some reports that SM's future-FIL suggested the route that day.

- based on the opinion of both a Swiss gun dealer and EM, the french prosecutor, the shooter was experienced (professional hitman or former /mercenary were possibilities). The shooter accomplished the task in a very short time frame yet had to reload twice and shoot while the car was moving. It is the e Swiss prosecutor's opinion that the gun is not one a professional hitman would seek out, but it is precise and reliable and likely used by chance after purchase on the black market.

- The weapon is over 100 years old, made from steel (with no screws) and is very easy to disassemble. It can be purchased for about 1,500 pounds.

- investigators did tests to determine why BM didn't hear any shots. They concluded that the shots could not have been heard from that spot (due to the sound of rushing water). [according to BM]

- The forestry guy said he saw a motorbike pull into the parking spot just minutes before the shootings(as he was coming 'down' the mountain. As he continued on he saw a BMW X5 [right-hand drive, British plates, driver slightly balding with dark complexion and no glasses) pass him, driving quickly, on its way up. 10 minutes later his colleagues saw the motorbike continuing on the road (past the parking spot, at Place Martinet, 2 bends further along) where vehicles weren't allowed. They called out to him and asked him to drive down. They saw his face because he lifted his helmet.

- the BMW could have taken a different route down. The forestry guy said that a small car couldn't have made it down some of those forestry roads, but the 4x4 could have. And, it was only a short distance to Italy. (1 1/2 hours)

- shooting an entire family (with women and children) does not bear the hallmarks of intelligence hit. ZAH's opinion was that state sponsored hits tend to occur near home or work, not 1000 miles away.

- french investigators found a number of computers, software, hard discs, USB memory sticks and paper documents in the family's caravan. They contained a huge amount of info on every aspect of SAH's life, including info about the property portfolio that his father had accumulated (including other flats in England and abroad).

- a family friend of SAH said that SAH went to Iraq shortly after the fall of the regime to try to get a family house back. Squatters scared him off (threatened and beat him) so he came back unsuccessful. Shortly before the murders, the friend asked about the status of the house. SAH cheerfully said that it had been 'sorted out'.

- in the first part of the show, ZAH raised some excellent points about the french prosecutors lack of interest in fully following the investigation into whether SM was a target, rather than SAH. In the latter half of the program, ZAH came across as a crook and a fraud. In the face of comments/evidence from the Swiss prosecutor, the French prosecutor and SAH's friend, it seems very likely that ZAH was trying to commit fraud. The Swiss prosecutor indicated that ZAH had forged his father's signature in an attempt to get credit cards that could be used to access his father's Swiss bank account. Two wills were found in the house, one which split assets evenly between the two brothers, and another which left everything to ZAH. When asked about troubles with his brother, ZAH said there really weren't any, yet they only communicated through lawyers and ZAH had moved out of the Claygate house. (As well, there had been a physical incident in which SAH had called police.) ZAH's comments seemed disingenuous.

- Each brother told the Swiss bank not to release money to the other. The Swiss prosecutor said that SAH called the bank on Monday saying he was going to stop by, yet he was murdered by Wednesday. The prosecutor found that "disturbing".

- EM (french prosecutor), when asked if ZAH is their key suspect, said that he was simply the only person who they had a face for and a motive for...that was the only reason. "ZAH has motive, but that doesn't make him a killer"

- ZAH said he offered to take a polygraph and said he's willing to put up a reward.

- the possible link to Romania has been discounted by LE.

I watched the show in parts on YouTube, but won't link it here since it is likely unauthorized and the links probably won't work at some point. Do a search on YouTube for "Panorama Murder in the Alps" if you are not able to watch it through the BBC website (which I couldn't).
 
Saad al-Hilli, the British-Iraqi man gunned down with his family in the French Alps, had a “heated” argument with an unidentified person at his campsite the night before he was killed, a new report claims.

Several campers witnessed al-Hilli talk for half an hour with the man, whom he appeared to know, on September 4, 2012, Le Parisien newspaper reported, citing a judicial source.
Click to expand...

In a separate disclosure, Eric Maillaud, a prosecutor in charge of the case, said the murdered couple’s British passports had never been found.

“Investigators searched absolutely everywhere, on the bodies, in the family caravan, in the house in Claygate (in Britain),” he said. “Given the timing (of the killings), it’s not impossible that the killer took the two passports... but that would have been tight.”
Click to expand...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10404940/Saad-al-Hilli-seen-in-heated-argument-before-Alps-murders.html

I remember that it had been in the media quite early on that the AH family had a visitor at the campsite. I guess the new news is that the discussion was "heated"? LE must have a description of the individual, so I wonder why they haven't released it if they still don't know who it was.
 
Snoopster said:
I just watched the latest BBC program on this case and found it interesting.
Key points that I picked out, that either haven't been in the media before or haven't been discussed much, are:

- SM was on a racing bike and the road up to Le Martinet was not suitable for a racing bike due to potential damage to the wheels from potholes, etc. Both Brett Martin and Eric Maillaud mention this in the program.

- LE found "very important data" on SAH's computers that went well beyond anything he needed for his work. LE doesn't know if it was due to simple professional curiosity or if he was planning on selling it. While LE wouldn't say what kind of data they found, the BBC says they understand it wasn't 'defence related', only industrial designs. SAH's friend said that SAH didn't have clearance as he was only a contractor brought in to solve problems (of course this is what SAH would have told him, not necessarily first hand knowledge).

- SM lived only 10 miles away, yet LE believes he simply 'got lost' and kept going (in spite of the comments earlier about the risk of damaging his bike). Others have noted, and the show mentioned that SM's relatives have not allowed a photograph of him to be seen. [My question, is this true for BOTH sides of the family? This seems odd to me.]

- LE checked for links between SAH and SM and even Brett Martin in their investigation to determine if SM was riding to some secret meeting. Eric Maillaud said that they are fairly certain that SM was there my mistake. later he says that they are "convinced", but doesn't say why..other than the wrong place/wrong time comment over and over again (in spite of the 'inappropriate road for a racing bicycle).

- EM (french prosecutor) says he's heard claims that there was a conflict between SM and his future father-in-law, but "if all disputes ended in murder there would be a lot more of them". (hmmmm, he doesn't use tht is reasoning when talking about the feud between SAH and his brother ZAH.)

- EM confirmed that there have been 'some reports that SM's future-FIL suggested the route that day.

- based on the opinion of both a Swiss gun dealer and EM, the french prosecutor, the shooter was experienced (professional hitman or former /mercenary were possibilities). The shooter accomplished the task in a very short time frame yet had to reload twice and shoot while the car was moving. It is the e Swiss prosecutor's opinion that the gun is not one a professional hitman would seek out, but it is precise and reliable and likely used by chance after purchase on the black market.

- The weapon is over 100 years old, made from steel (with no screws) and is very easy to disassemble. It can be purchased for about 1,500 pounds.

- investigators did tests to determine why BM didn't hear any shots. They concluded that the shots could not have been heard from that spot (due to the sound of rushing water). [according to BM]

- The forestry guy said he saw a motorbike pull into the parking spot just minutes before the shootings(as he was coming 'down' the mountain. As he continued on he saw a BMW X5 [right-hand drive, British plates, driver slightly balding with dark complexion and no glasses) pass him, driving quickly, on its way up. 10 minutes later his colleagues saw the motorbike continuing on the road (past the parking spot, at Place Martinet, 2 bends further along) where vehicles weren't allowed. They called out to him and asked him to drive down. They saw his face because he lifted his helmet.

- the BMW could have taken a different route down. The forestry guy said that a small car couldn't have made it down some of those forestry roads, but the 4x4 could have. And, it was only a short distance to Italy. (1 1/2 hours)

- shooting an entire family (with women and children) does not bear the hallmarks of intelligence hit. ZAH's opinion was that state sponsored hits tend to occur near home or work, not 1000 miles away.

- french investigators found a number of computers, software, hard discs, USB memory sticks and paper documents in the family's caravan. They contained a huge amount of info on every aspect of SAH's life, including info about the property portfolio that his father had accumulated (including other flats in England and abroad).

- a family friend of SAH said that SAH went to Iraq shortly after the fall of the regime to try to get a family house back. Squatters scared him off (threatened and beat him) so he came back unsuccessful. Shortly before the murders, the friend asked about the status of the house. SAH cheerfully said that it had been 'sorted out'.

- in the first part of the show, ZAH raised some excellent points about the french prosecutors lack of interest in fully following the investigation into whether SM was a target, rather than SAH. In the latter half of the program, ZAH came across as a crook and a fraud. In the face of comments/evidence from the Swiss prosecutor, the French prosecutor and SAH's friend, it seems very likely that ZAH was trying to commit fraud. The Swiss prosecutor indicated that ZAH had forged his father's signature in an attempt to get credit cards that could be used to access his father's Swiss bank account. Two wills were found in the house, one which split assets evenly between the two brothers, and another which left everything to ZAH. When asked about troubles with his brother, ZAH said there really weren't any, yet they only communicated through lawyers and ZAH had moved out of the Claygate house. (As well, there had been a physical incident in which SAH had called police.) ZAH's comments seemed disingenuous.

- Each brother told the Swiss bank not to release money to the other. The Swiss prosecutor said that SAH called the bank on Monday saying he was going to stop by, yet he was murdered by Wednesday. The prosecutor found that "disturbing".

- EM (french prosecutor), when asked if ZAH is their key suspect, said that he was simply the only person who they had a face for and a motive for...that was the only reason. "ZAH has motive, but that doesn't make him a killer"

- ZAH said he offered to take a polygraph and said he's willing to put up a reward.

- the possible link to Romania has been discounted by LE.

I watched the show in parts on YouTube, but won't link it here since it is likely unauthorized and the links probably won't work at some point. Do a search on YouTube for "Panorama Murder in the Alps" if you are not able to watch it through the BBC website (which I couldn't).
Click to expand...

I too watched the documentary - twice .. and haven't been able to get it out of my head since. If ever there was a murder that was perfect for Websleuths - this has to be it. As was said at the start of the documentary - it is like an Agatha Christie Whodunnit.

Various possibilities put forward - some discounted rather abruptly by the French police I thought (I agree with your comments in this regard) who seem to be of the opinion it was the brother - ZAH, or rather an assasin acting on his behalf. If it was him, then he's got some front I'll give him that.

I'm also tending to veer towards him at the moment (although not convinced by any means) because of the fact that the assassin wasn't just intent on killing SAH, but on wiping out the whole family including the little girls (one of whom, as we know, was not visible to the killer). In wiping out an entire family - that wipes out any heirs to the 2million pound estate, that we know for a fact that ZAH has been trying to get his hands on for some time through fraudulent means.

But in regard to the killings, I felt the programme left lots of avenues unexplored and seemed too willing to accept the explanations given by the French police. For example that Sylvain Mollier was 'lost' and just in the wrong place at the wrong time. How can you be 'lost' cycling up a steep incline for several minutes, going in one direction? Where did he think he was going? How could the French police be so utterly positive - 100% convinced I think the French officer said? It just seems a very trite response and one I felt the Panorama team could have delved a little deeper in to?

Very, very mysterious and peculiar case indeed.
 
ALeqM5iDHPkTt0MJiAuj-VLMD8wlr0wrbQ


Investigators said the helmet he was described as wearing is a rare model, with only 8,000 made in the dark colour seen by witnesses.

A band across the front of the helmet opens from the chin to allow conversations without removing it.

"The only helmet on the market that matches this description is the ISR-type GPA helmet," police said in a statement released with the sketch.
Click to expand...

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jlW5Zk24pn8PSqlg5YHPcEE-6vVg?hl=en&docId=f021ace1-b995-4eaa-9ab7-c9f2996166ae&index=0
 
Martha Morris said:
I too watched the documentary - twice .. and haven't been able to get it out of my head since. If ever there was a murder that was perfect for Websleuths - this has to be it. As was said at the start of the documentary - it is like an Agatha Christie Whodunnit.

Various possibilities put forward - some discounted rather abruptly by the French police I thought (I agree with your comments in this regard) who seem to be of the opinion it was the brother - ZAH, or rather an assasin acting on his behalf. If it was him, then he's got some front I'll give him that.

I'm also tending to veer towards him at the moment (although not convinced by any means) because of the fact that the assassin wasn't just intent on killing SAH, but on wiping out the whole family including the little girls (one of whom, as we know, was not visible to the killer). In wiping out an entire family - that wipes out any heirs to the 2million pound estate, that we know for a fact that ZAH has been trying to get his hands on for some time through fraudulent means.

But in regard to the killings, I felt the programme left lots of avenues unexplored and seemed too willing to accept the explanations given by the French police. For example that Sylvain Mollier was 'lost' and just in the wrong place at the wrong time. How can you be 'lost' cycling up a steep incline for several minutes, going in one direction? Where did he think he was going? How could the French police be so utterly positive - 100% convinced I think the French officer said? It just seems a very trite response and one I felt the Panorama team could have delved a little deeper in to?

Very, very mysterious and peculiar case indeed.
Click to expand...

I keep coming back to this case. It strikes me as a 'truth is stranger than fiction' case. Can a movie be far behind? There is beautiful scenery, an interesting cast of characters, investigative differences, potential espionage, rich heiress, family tensions, old dictator regimes, etc., etc.

IF ONLY there weren't real victims with real loved ones that have to live with the fallout. :(
 
One thing that leads me away from a "hit" perpetrated by the brother is that if that is the case, the brother would have told the assassin who was traveling with his brother - and that would include the two children.

Did he see the little girl? If it was a hitman targeting the family, did he forget about the child or quit looking when he ran out of ammo?

My other question is why was SAH out of the vehicle with his daughter? We know the vehicle was abruptly moved and therefore backed into a ditch. Was SAH at the wheel when he saw the cyclist get murdered and tried to get his family out of there while the assailant drove off? After his car got stuck maybe he ran over to the dying cyclist and the killer returned to finish off witnesses?

The women shot in the back seat of the car, were they shot through the car windows or through an open door? Perhaps he confronted the father outside while the family sat in the car, then sprayed the car, opened the door and pulled the daughter he could see out of the car to complete the job.
 
I kinda agree regarding the 'Hitman' should have known exact details about targets etc.

Heres full Panorama ' Murder in the Alps'

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZXPwVd5v_M"]Panorama Murder in the Alps - YouTube[/ame]

Answers most of questions about the sequence of events
Hope it works ok !!
 
Here is a link to the judgement for the recent placement of the two girls with their aunt, uncle and cousin under a "special guardianship".

http://www.familylawweek.co.uk/site.aspx?i=ed121125



11. First, I commend the aunt and uncle for the dedication that they have shown to the girls. They have without hesitation taken on the responsibility of caring for their nieces and welcomed them into their home. They have, of course, had to do this whilst addressing their own grief and sense of loss. They have had to withstand the intrusion of professionals coming to carry out assessments and other enquiries and the inevitable media attention. I commend them for all that they have done, and all that they are going to do in future, for the benefit of the girls. In addition, I acknowledge, as Miss Morgan QC has done on behalf of the local authority the way in which the aunt and uncle have cooperated and worked with the professionals to achieve the best solution for the girls.
Click to expand...

I hope these girls experience the loving, safe embrace of family members who deeply care for them.


The guardians have applied for residency in the U.K. Here is a BBC article on that topic.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-24995565
 
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