France - Five shot, four dead in French Alps, may have int'l ramifications #1

[Skigh]

I doubt many of the press reports are that accurate, the French prosecutor, the magistrates and the gendarmes are keeping things very close to there chests so what the media is reporting is mostly speculation,

Actually I think there has been very little speculation in the press.Most reports have been given with quotes from various people.

 

[Lola68]

he saw bike, saw 7 year old, helped her away from car due to car still running, went back towards car saw cyclist, at this point he was assuming it was car accident, moved cyclist as he was concerned he would be run over by car (why he didn't just switch car engine off instead of moving bodies is what I would ask) went to car drivers door/window saw it was shattered but not smashed saw what he thought was bullet holes, had cycling gloves on so pushed window in reached in turned car off, saw bodies with bullet holes in head lots of blood, did not see 4 year old, said it would be hard to see 4 year old hiding in back as bodies of females slumped in back seat, was now worried shooter could be in woods and he would be next, tried to ring on mobile phone no signal got back on bike and rode down hill for about 4oo yds came upon French group, D called for help, went back to scene as French man D wanted to check if they could help, 7 year old still unconscious left scene and headed back downhill and rescue services arrived soon after.

thats as much as I can remember

my bold text - I agree, very strange, especially as he then describes his dilemma in leaving her behind for fear of causing further injury if he moved her. Also would it not have been obvious that cyclist had been shot when he moved him? Earlier posters have also mentioned the lack of (visible) bloodin images of the car...

 

[joe jones]

Actually I think there has been very little speculation in the press.Most reports have been given with quotes from various people.

there has been unending speculation, quote marks mean nothing, they have specualted on everything from his brother killing them over money to the 7 year old already speaking to police when she hasn't, I read most English papers on a daily basis and it is all mostly speculation, the two main news broadcasters in England Sky and BBC who broadcast 24 hours a day have filled hours of airtime with speculation

 

[Skigh]

Yes, that has previously been reported in the press. That may or may not be correct.

I was just stating what the RAF man said in his BBC interview today.

I think that in any live interview it is natural to look at what is said then compare it to previous information that has been in the media.

I am still not sure in my own mind what I feel about the interview and why it was given.

 

[kiwi50]

Brett Martin sounded like he had a slight Australian accent to me, I watched interview from start to finish, I think his RAF training and being a pilot meant that he did not run round like a headless chicken but assessed the scene, assisted where he could and then got help,

he revealed much more information than was previously given out, when he got to scene the 7 year old was stumbling round and moaning, he moved her to a place away from road and not in front of her parents car as the engine was still running, put her in recovery position she was slipping in and out of conscious eventually becoming unconscious, he then went to front of car to check cyclist moved him out of way of car, went to drivers door/window had to smash window which had bullet holes in to get access to car to turn off engine,

no signal on his mobile, maybe it was his UK phone, went down hill and flagged down French people who called 911

this interview throws up many questions, did he try the car door/s before he smashed window, he did not say, if he did and all doors were locked when and how did 7 year old get out of car, she could not have got out and locked door behind her as keys were in ignition, if all doors to car were locked then 7 year old for some reason was outside car when attack occurred, attacker/s may have run out of bullets which is why she was beaten

this throws up another anomaly was she attacked after cyclist, as there were enough bullets to kill him not her, and she was the only one not shot in the head possibly showing she was moving too much for a clean shot

He shouLd have had a NZ accent. He attended one of NZ's most expensive colleges

 

[jjenny]

I think that in any live interview it is natural to look at what is said then compare it to previous information that has been in the media.

I am still not sure in my own mind what I feel about the interview and why it was given.

Generally people give interviews because public is interested in what they have to say. Is there any other reason?

 

[Lola68]

Yes, that has previously been reported in the press. That may or may not be correct.

I was just stating what the RAF man said in his BBC interview today.

ETA RAF man's statement doesn't preclude having been overtaken by Mollier much earlier in his journey up the hill

My intention was to highlight the discrepancy - whether as result of misreporting or RAF man changing his statement, although I appreciate from your last comment that the two statements may not necessarily be contradictory if referring to different time periods. That might also explain how the French cyclist got to the layby much earlier (cycling faster than RAF man who says he was tired...)

 

[joe jones]

my bold text - I agree, very strange, especially as he then describes his dilemma in leaving her behind for fear of causing further injury if he moved her. Also would it not have been obvious that cyclist had been shot when he moved him? Earlier posters have also mentioned the lack of (visible) bloodin images of the car...

I haven't seen any up close images of the car, so do not know if there is visible blood on car (if anybody has up close pictures of car I would like to see them) I also found it odd that he did not immediately see the cyclist if he too was immediately in front of car,

and I know that the first thing I would have done is call for help so I would have reached for my phone immediately and seeing no signal would have cycled for help straight away, turning the engine off or moving bloody probable dead bodies would not have entered my head,

 

[Skigh]

there has been unending speculation, quote marks mean nothing, they have specualted on everything from his brother killing them over money to the 7 year old already speaking to police when she hasn't, I read most English papers on a daily basis and it is all mostly speculation, the two main news broadcasters in England Sky and BBC who broadcast 24 hours a day have filled hours of airtime with speculation

There have been several lines of inquiry officially given by the French .The feud with his brother is one line of enquiry which has been backed up with documented evidence .

The 7 year old has only been reported to have told the police she was afraid .

I really hope that any thing she does say is not reported as coming from her.
For her safety it is much better it is reported she remembers nothing.

 

[Clio]

I think that in any live interview it is natural to look at what is said then compare it to previous information that has been in the media.

I am still not sure in my own mind what I feel about the interview and why it was given.

Yes, we take what snippets of infomation we have and try and fill in the gaps/find inconsistencies/paint a picture for ourselves etc

As I said earlier, I was at first astonished that the RAF man gave this interview and that the police allowed him to give the interview. I think the main reason may be the fact that he stated he could not identify the people in the 4x4 nor could he identify the rider of the motorcycle.

i.e. I don't know who they are, I can't identify them, I am not a threat!

 

[joe jones]

He shouLd have had a NZ accent. He attended one of NZ's most expensive colleges

thanks, being English the NZ and the Aussie accent sound similar, so is he from New Zealand and moved to UK,

 

[jjenny]

I haven't seen any up close images of the car, so do not know if there is visible blood on car (if anybody has up close pictures of car I would like to see them) I also found it odd that he did not immediately see the cyclist if he too was immediately in front of car,

and I know that the first thing I would have done is call for help so I would have reached for my phone immediately and seeing no signal would have cycled for help straight away, turning the engine off or moving bloody probable dead bodies would not have entered my head,

People do things like that upon seeing an accident. He wouldn't be the first to try and move someone. There is a reason for "good Samaritan" laws.

 

[Sillybilly]

rewatching interview he says the first thing he saw was the 7 year old prone on the ground moaning in front of the car, so he went to move her and try to help as the car was still running and he was worried it may run her over,

he has returned to France to do a re construction with the police to show them where everything was as he remembers with more detail

<bbm>

Why do the details keep changing? Either she was prone or stumbling/larking about when he first saw her?

He claims to have moved both the girl and the cyclist before going to shut the engine off, and he states he was wearing gloves when he broke through the car window. Yet when the hikers saw him coming down the trail, they said his "hands" were covered in blood. If he was wearing gloves while initially moving the victims and then breaking the window, why did he subsequently remove his gloves for his hands to somehow then become bloodied? IF he removed his gloves to call for help on his cell phone, was his cell phone also covered in blood. If not, how/when did his hands become bloodied prior to his meeting with the hikers?

 

[joe jones]

Yes, we take what snippets of infomation we have and try and fill in the gaps/find inconsistencies/paint a picture for ourselves etc

As I said earlier, I was at first astonished that the RAF man gave this interview and that the police allowed him to give the interview. I think the main reason may be the fact that he stated he could not identify the people in the 4x4 nor could he identify the rider of the motorcycle.

i.e. I don't know who they are, I can't identify them, I am not a threat!

I think that was his motivation as the situation he has found himself in must be pretty scary, who knows why they were murdered, he probably fears for his safety and that of his family,

I bet the French authorities are pretty hacked off that the witnesses are giving interviews as they appear to wish to keep most of the evidence and investigation secret

I was suprised at how much he did reveal though

 

[joe jones]

<bbm>

Why do the details keep changing? Either she was prone or stumbling/larking about when he first saw her?

He claims to have moved both the girl and the cyclist before going to shut the engine off, and he states he was wearing gloves when he broke through the car window. Yet when the hikers saw him coming down the trail, they said his "hands" were covered in blood. If he was wearing gloves while initially moving the victims and then breaking the window, why did he subsequently remove his gloves for his hands to somehow then become bloodied? IF he removed his gloves to call for help on his cell phone, was his cell phone also covered in blood. If not, how/when did his hands become bloodied prior to his meeting with the hikers?

I think she was prone and stumbling and falling over, I think he was trying to explain his impressions of what he witnessed and parts of it will be difficult for him to recall never mind retell them, it must have been absolutely mind blowing to be cycling in the beautiful French countryside and then come upon a scene of absolute horror

he never mentioned blood on his gloves or hands, he just said he had the gloves on when he broke the window

 

[wfgodot]

A good accounting of the Martin interview, with a 3:30+ snippet from it:

Alps shootings cyclist 'feared' attacker still around (BBC News)

 

[joe jones]

anybody have an opinion on why they were murdered, I have absolutely no idea on who did it but I don't hink it was random, I think the family were the targets

 

[Sillybilly]

I think she was prone and stumbling and falling over, I think he was trying to explain his impressions of what he witnessed and parts of it will be difficult for him to recall never mind retell them, it must have been absolutely mind blowing to be cycling in the beautiful French countryside and then come upon a scene of absolute horror

he never mentioned blood on his gloves or hands, he just said he had the gloves on when he broke the window

"Prone" means flat on the ground ... can't be both flat on the ground and up and stumbling around.

No, he never mentioned blood on his hands ... the hikers said he had blood on his hands.

 

[joe jones]

"Prone" means flat on the ground ... can't be both flat on the ground and up and stumbling around.

No, he never mentioned blood on his hands ... the hikers said he had blood on his hands.

prone and stumbling are not mutually exclusive, he was saying at times she was prone and others she was stumbling, he also said his initial impression was she was larking around as children do and falling down like children do,

she must have been in a dreadful state not being able to even control her own body or movements, she wasn't speaking just moaning, I can't imagine how terrified she must have been, and once he put her in the recovery position she seems not to have moved after that she lapsed into unconsciousness and just stayed there,

and her younger sister must have been just as terrified but for much longer,

 

[wfgodot]

Martin on Zainab (from BBC link above):

---
Brett Martin, from East Sussex, helped Zainab al-Hilli, seven, after the attack which claimed the lives of her parents, grandmother and a local man.

He told the BBC he made the difficult decision to leave her bleeding on the ground while he went to seek help.
---
He moved Zainab, who collapsed on the ground after he found her "stumbling" away from the car in case it began moving but said he faced a "dilemma" when he decided to seek help after finding his mobile phone had no reception.

He said he felt Zainab's injuries would have worsened - "perhaps killed her" - if he had carried her with him.
---