France - Five shot, four dead in French Alps, may have int'l ramifications #1

[SophieRose]

The French hikers may not have seen the car and motorcycle because there is a fork in the road.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19594095

 

[rotterdam]

My intention was to highlight the discrepancy - whether as result of misreporting or RAF man changing his statement, although I appreciate from your last comment that the two statements may not necessarily be contradictory if referring to different time periods. That might also explain how the French cyclist got to the layby much earlier (cycling faster than RAF man who says he was tired...)

I do not interpret that Mr Mollier got to the layby much earlier. It could only have been a few minutes. Mr. Martin was overtaken by Mr Mollier about 30 minutes earlier but both were moving in the same direction..

 

[JulieR]

Here's what I don't get............If you heard the engine running and see the back tires moving WOULD YOU step in front of that car? He said he was afraid the car would lunge forward would you really step in front of it?

 

[rotterdam]

I am pretty sure the RAF man was only 5 minutes behind Mollier.

Not really a contradiction. Martin could have been passed by French cyclist 30 minutes earlier but only be 5 minutes behind and arriving 5 minutes later at the layby, after Mr Mollier.

 

[jjenny]

Here's what I don't get............If you heard the engine running and see the back tires moving WOULD YOU step in front of that car? He said he was afraid the car would lunge forward would you really step in front of it?

Since nobody is there to contradict him, he didn't have to say he stopped in front of the car.
Upon encountering a scene like that, one might not behave in a perfectly logical manner.

 

[rotterdam]

I haven't seen any up close images of the car, so do not know if there is visible blood on car (if anybody has up close pictures of car I would like to see them) I also found it odd that he did not immediately see the cyclist if he too was immediately in front of car,

and I know that the first thing I would have done is call for help so I would have reached for my phone immediately and seeing no signal would have cycled for help straight away, turning the engine off or moving bloody probable dead bodies would not have entered my head,

That would depend on your professional training/experience. He is a pilot and would go to automode.

 

[joe jones]

Mr Martin said there are many roads throughout the National Park which lead to the carparks which are in the park so the murderer/s could have come from arrived at the scene and dissapeared from the scene on one of the backroads,

 

[rotterdam]

The French hikers may not have seen the car and motorcycle because there is a fork in the road.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19594095

Makes perfect sense. The assailants could have arrived and depart that way.

 

[SophieRose]

<bbm>

Why do the details keep changing? Either she was prone or stumbling/larking about when he first saw her?

He claims to have moved both the girl and the cyclist before going to shut the engine off, and he states he was wearing gloves when he broke through the car window. Yet when the hikers saw him coming down the trail, they said his "hands" were covered in blood. If he was wearing gloves while initially moving the victims and then breaking the window, why did he subsequently remove his gloves for his hands to somehow then become bloodied? IF he removed his gloves to call for help on his cell phone, was his cell phone also covered in blood. If not, how/when did his hands become bloodied prior to his meeting with the hikers?

Bike gloves cover the palms of the hands, are cut at the fingers. So even if wearing gloves, his fingers would have had blood on them.

 

[rotterdam]

anybody have an opinion on why they were murdered, I have absolutely no idea on who did it but I don't hink it was random, I think the family were the targets

I also think the Al_Hilli family was targeted or at least Mr Al-Hilli. May be the assailants were known to the rest of the family(from previous encounters) besides Mr Al-Hilli.
Industrial espionage comes to mind as opposed to State sponsored.
Industrial espionage is fairly common and very rewarding, just like drug running. It has really nothing to do with loyalty to any government, just loyalty to the highest bidder.
That said, all opinions are still basically a crap shoot right now IMO. The family feud is very low on my short list though..

 

[joe jones]

I think if just Mr Al Hilli was the target then it would have been easy to just murder
him when he was alone, such as when he was on his way to work, murdering a whole family including children who I believe were supposed to also be killed brings much more heat and investigation than if just one man is dead,

I am hoping that they have more information evidence than they appear to at the moment

 

[jjenny]

I think if just Mr Al Hilli was the target then it would have been easy to just murder
him when he was alone, such as when he was on his way to work, murdering a whole family including children who I believe were supposed to also be killed brings much more heat and investigation than if just one man is dead,

I am hoping that they have more information evidence than they appear to at the moment

That would make much more sense, wouldn't it? If he is the target, why kill his wife, mother in law, and beat up the child? A professional hitman in that case could have waited until he was alone.

 

[SophieRose]

Inheritance is one reason why an entire family might be killed.

 

[Confusion]

I've had another one of my totally off-the-wall ideas about this case. Please forgive me, I have way to much time on my hands some days for just thinking about this sort of event.

Apologies too to the witness for continually dragging him into various positions in the scenario. If both he and Mr. Al_Hilli had more discreet careers than the obvious, could they have been meeting during those trips that Al_Hilli was taking from the campsite, possibly to discuss someone else who was staying there? It's possible that they had planned to leave the area after this meeting, so he brought the family and their bags along. While there were sitting there waiting for the "contact" to get there, the shooter ambushed them, killed them and the French cyclist, thinking he was the one they were there to meet.

Judging from the description given of the gun, I'd have to change my original theory on the shooting of the young girl (sorry, I'm terrible with names.) It seems more likely now that he had emptied the weapon on the family, but the girl wasn't seriously wounded. Rather than reloading immediately, he hit her in the head until he assumed she was mortally wounded, and then reloaded just in time to shoot the cyclist. The last I heard they found 25 casings, they believe the gun could hold 20 rounds, and the cyclist was shot 5 times.

I really hope I'm way off on this theory though since it would mean that the witnesses, especially the other cyclist could still be targets.

 

[jellybeanz]

from his interview today I think he was further behind than 5 minutes, as he said it took him 30 minutes to cycle up the hill and he saw nothing but the dark coloured big car which he said was possibly a 4 by 4 and a motorbike,

{snipped},

He says 'Id seen that cyclist ahead of me much earlier'. He doesn't mention times, apart from leaving about 2.30pm and planning to be out for an hour or two.

Also, from his statements provided by Maillaud, he saw the motorbike and 4x4 coming in the opposite direction from him and turn right into the hairpin that Mollier had just cycled left into. The RAF guy then turned left himself into the hairpin and saw the carnage.
The 4x4 and motorbike would have then carried on up the hairpin away from the scene and to the south. Therefore, Philippe D would never see a car or bike as he walked up from Chevaline, just like he said. The builder Filip-Robin also corroborates this.
The farmer wife on the other side of the mountain to the south of the incident has confirmed a motorbike passed her farm a few times that afternoon. Search Catherine Jeanin Col De Cherel.

If you look at the following, the hit took place at the 19K mark on this route. You can follow the same route on google maps.
http://www.bikely.com/maps/bike-path/Col-De-Cherel

 

[Sillybilly]

Bike gloves cover the palms of the hands, are cut at the fingers. So even if wearing gloves, his fingers would have had blood on them.

Thanks Sophie, i know what bike glove are. I was simply referring to what the hikers said ... his hands (not gloves or fingers) were covered in blood.

 

[joe jones]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rror-discovering-bodies-family-shot-dead.html

more of the interview with witness

 

[Snoopster]

That would make much more sense, wouldn't it? If he is the target, why kill his wife, mother in law, and beat up the child? A professional hitman in that case could have waited until he was alone.

But perhaps not if your hand was forced due an impending rendezvous or hand-off of information or money underway. Perhaps the hit wasn't simply to kill him but to get the information (or whatever) that was being passed or prevent it from being passed.

 

[rotterdam]

But perhaps not if your hand was forced due an impending rendezvous or hand-off of information or money underway. Perhaps the hit wasn't simply to kill him but to get the information (or whatever) that was being passed or prevent it from being passed.

I agree. All very murky. May be new blood in the form of a higher bidder had entered the market thereby enraging the lower bidder.
Mr Al-Hilli could have been shopping around, except not for groceries.

 

[rotterdam]

Anybody wonder why the Claygate home is being searched with a fine tooth comb and practically leaving no stone unturned.
Including the grounds? Sounds over the top for a family quarrel over an inheritance.
Ditto for robbery gone bad or crazed local psychopath.
My hunch is they are not only looking for information but also for stashed cash and/or any evidence of foreign bank accounts.
Wonder what they found in the safe.
Although it could just be an elimination process to ensure there are no technology leaks. Selling technology secrets to foreign governments but also to competing corporations via criminal underground characters, seldom ever directly, is big business.