GA - 8 dead after shootings at three spas, Atlanta, 16 Mar 2021 *arrest*

[LinasK]

The rest of the world was worried about the virus in April. I think the first lock downs in the US were in March. In March President Trump was talking about it being a Chinese flu.

My daughter's college evacuated everyone by mid-March. She was home by March 13th.

 

[coffeeandacig]

<modsnip: unnecessary>
This is not about only white people being capable of hate crimes. If a minority attacked or murdered white people because they were white and no other reason, it would be a hate crime.

<modsnip: Quoted post was modsnipped>

Some people will of course believe this disgusting human is guilty of a "hate crime" and a "racist" no matter what the FBI or any other LE officials tell them.
And unfortunately, many of these people have access to media in order to perpetuate a false narrative, without waiting for the experts to confirm or deny.

 

[Inthedetails]

<modsnip: Quoted post was modsnipped>

Some people will of course believe this disgusting human is guilty of a "hate crime" and a "racist" no matter what the FBI or any other LE officials tell them.
And unfortunately, many of these people have access to media in order to perpetuate a false narrative, without waiting for the experts to confirm or deny.

Hate crime has a legal definition. Here's Georgia's definition:

LibGuides: Hate Crimes: State Statutes and Contacts: Georgia - Indiana

 

[slowpoke]

<modsnip>
I'm not sure I'm following, since the article goes on to say the fascination with Asian women has been going on for hundreds of years, and has been perpetuated by Hollywood, in films like 1952's Geisha Girl.
And if these women are in a relationship with these men, then it's their choice, correct?

I just tried to answer some of your questions, because you said you were sincerely trying to understand.

You asked:
“He was a frequent "customer", in what is the very intimate act of receiving a massage. I'd assume, a truly racist person would not have such close contact with a person of another race. Correct me, if I am wrong, please.”

So, I provided a quote that named prominent neo Nazi ideology persons who dated Asian women. I consider a Neo Nazi person racist. And if they date the women, it follows they are in close contact with them. - IMO

 

[coffeeandacig]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

I was citing articles about the uptick in crimes against Asians. It's part of the threads dialogue. None of the articles that I linked, called any of them a "hate crime" against Asians, but they were examples of the hatred and violence Asians are experiencing, at the hands of other minority groups. That one guy in the article was actually hitting Asian women with a hard object, but MSM refrained from calling it a "hate crime".

In this murder case, where even the FBI said that the investigation is ongoing, and at this time there is no proof to support a racially motivated "hate crime" this incident is being used as a reactionary event by the Mayor of Atlanta, and Biden/Harris. And I find that strange...

I was also very surprised, as I'm sure others would be, to find out that a largest percentage are being committed by other minority groups.

 

[coffeeandacig]

I just tried to answer some of your questions, because you said you were sincerely trying to understand.

You asked:
“He was a frequent "customer", in what is the very intimate act of receiving a massage. I'd assume, a truly racist person would not have such close contact with a person of another race. Correct me, if I am wrong, please.”

So, I provided a quote that named prominent neo Nazi ideology persons who dated Asian women. I consider a Neo Nazi person racist. And if they date the women, it follows they are in close contact with them. - IMO

@slowpoke Well thank you for being respectful and helping me to understand.

I believe that one of those neo-nazi guys, who shall remain nameless, according to his Wiki page, says he dated Asian women before joining the hate groups.

The other guy, I can't find any information on...so I'll have to try harder to find out if he dated Asian women while being in those hate groups.

And @Gibbo214 Of course I agree, people can think it's a "hate crime" if they want.
But, I don't think people who are in positions of responsibility should use this horrible event as the initiative to discuss "hate crimes", when it has yet to be proven by the FBI to be as such.

 

[Inthedetails]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

Actually, hate crime is not a matter of opinion but has a legal definition.

I posted a link to Georgia's definition twice if anyone wants to scroll up and see what authorities will be using to determine if this is a hate crime.

jmo

 

[LinasK]

Actually, hate crime is not a matter of opinion but has a legal definition.

I posted a link to Georgia's definition twice if anyone wants to scroll up and see what authorities will be using to determine if this is a hate crime.

jmo

And that hasn't been taken off the table no matter what opinions Captain Baker or the perp offer.

 

[Reasonable & Just]

He was a frequent "customer", in what is the very intimate act of receiving a massage. I'd assume, a truly racist person would not have such close contact with a person of another race. Correct me, if I am wrong, please.

Sure. Supremacy requires dehumanizing "others". He didn't have a respectful, intellectual, romantic connection with these woman. He paid them (probably not well) to scratch his itches. Supremacists use women all the time, of all ancestries, but certainly of backgrounds they hate. Slavery in the US, and indeed throughout human history shows that. We can't think true love was why so many babies were born of plantation slaves, or during the Bosnian war?

As a woman of color, let me assure you that some very unpleasant men can be drawn to women for a number of reasons.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

Atlanta shooting suspect entered spa an hour before gunfire erupted: report

According to surveillance video obtained by The Washington Post, Robert Aaron Long spent roughly an hour outside Young’s Asian Massage before entering the spa. After entering, one hour and 12 minutes passed before he is seen getting into his car. Police arrived at the spa minutes later.

The time of his departure from Young’s Asian Massage was four minutes before Cherokee County law enforcement received their first reports of shots fired.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2021/03/19/surveillance-video-atlanta-shooting/

 

[dixiegirl1035]

These are some of the victims of the Atlanta-area massage parlor shootings - CNN

Quite detailed article MOO

 

[gitana1]

from Rolling Stone article:

It’s important to note that there is a good reason for Long to lie about his motivations: Hate crimes tend to carry with them more aggressive charges and lengthier sentences, giving him plenty of incentive to downplay the racial aspects of the attack. But by telling the media the attack did not appear to be racially motivated, Baker, intentionally or not, erased the complex and interlocking issues of racism and misogyny that could exist at the heart of the attack.

Further, by emphasizing that the victims allegedly “tempt[ed]” the shooter, law enforcement officials made the women complicit in perpetuating what they referred to as the shooter’s “sex addiction” (which is, in itself, an extremely controversial and medically dubious diagnosis that has been rejected from the DSM). Officials were then also able to downplay any perceived racial biases behind the attack, while simultaneously underscoring another aspect of the victims’ identity — the fact that they allegedly did sex work — in a way that deprived them of their humanity. (In a statement, Mayor Kesha Lance Bottoms declined to comment on whether the victims were sex workers, stating that to do so would be to engage in “victim-blaming,” a turn of phrase that sex workers pointed out implies that those who do sex work deserve violence to begin with.) In downplaying the racism and misogyny that was probably at play here — while simultaneously emphasizing the victims’ professions — law enforcement officials likely failed to recognize that they were painting a portrait of, and implicitly justifying, another type of hate crime altogether: a hate crime against sex workers.

The Excuses We Make for White Male Murderers

I agree with all of this except for one thing. I have some reservations about his reason for stating it wasn’t due to bias because he knew hate crimes have harsher penalties. I’m not sure that would be a reason.

Noticing that the women killed in Atlanta were ages 51, 63, 69, and 74.

I expected perhaps one "mature" woman to be at the spa perhaps serving as the boss. But four? I admit I'm surprised. Also interesting that it seems like it took authorities awhile to reach their families in Korea which is why it took until today for the names to be released. so does that mean they don't have family here in the States?

This is all making me sad.

jmo

I shared an office once with an attorney whose practice was 100% sex workers. They were almost all asian ladies from massage parlors. I was shocked that they were mostly in their 50’s -60’s. Totally normal looking. Like housewives. I had no idea what his focus was as a result. Because I always saw these sweet, Asian housewives waiting to see him. When he told me what he did I said, “but your clients!” He said, “Yeah I know. People aren’t aware of what the massage trade consists of.”

Oh and apparently they look like that while working as well.

Caveat: I have no idea whether the women targeted were sex workers and it shouldn’t make a difference either way, to justice for them.

 

[gitana1]

First and foremost...my sincere condolences to the loved ones of these victims.
Just trying to play catch up on this thread. If anyone can answer these questions please do. I am sincerely trying to understand.

The FBI and the local Sheriff's office haven't deemed these attacks a "hate crime", yet. They would have to have sufficient evidence to do so, yes?
He was a frequent "customer", in what is the very intimate act of receiving a massage. I'd assume, a truly racist person would not have such close contact with a person of another race. Correct me, if I am wrong, please.

The mayor of Atlanta says she believes it is a "hate crime". Can anyone tell me, what evidence could the mayor of Atlanta have that the FBI and Sheriff's office would not be privy to?

And the latest is that Biden and Harris are going to Atlanta to address the "hate crimes" against Asians, but there is no evidence that this is the case, yet.
Biden, Harris to meet with Asian American leaders in Atlanta today

I looked up the growing number of attacks on the Asian community.
These horrible attacks were deemed, "racial bias"...
Police identify man for in string of bias attacks against Asian women

They are still looking for this guy for an awful attack on March 15th, against an Asian woman on the streets of Manhattan.
Man Hits Asian Woman With Hard Object in Latest Unprovoked Attack in NYC

This article from February 15, 2021 addresses the "stereotyping" of African Americans as being perpetrators of crimes against Asians. And some Asians stood united in overthrowing "white supremacy".
However, the attacks listed in this article, were on Asians and their businesses by other minorities, in particular the African Americans.
500 Black and Asian Community Members Rally in Oakland as Holiday Weekend Sees Wave of Attacks, Robberies

This all leads to my sincere question...

It can only be called a "hate crime" or "racially motivated" if the perpetrator is white, is that correct?

Although a majority of these attacks on Asian people and their businesses are being perpetuated by other minorities, it is white supremacists who are actually carrying out these horrible hate crimes???

BBM. Think of all the slaves forced/raped by their white masters. These were also human beings who did all sort of intimate things for their owners, like massages, dressing them, helping them to bathe. Their owners did not believe them to be human.

 

[gitana1]

<modsnip: Quoted post was modsnipped>

Some people will of course believe this disgusting human is guilty of a "hate crime" and a "racist" no matter what the FBI or any other LE officials tell them.
And unfortunately, many of these people have access to media in order to perpetuate a false narrative, without waiting for the experts to confirm or deny.

I’m withholding judgment as to his motives. I’m not sure this will satisfy the hate crime requirements. But would it surprise you to think that this guy is racist?

He used these women for sex and then decided to kill them. Clearly he didn’t think much of them, either way. It’s interesting because there are plenty of white sex workers to choose from. The fact that he targeted Asian women for both sex and death, is certainly a red flag, at least for me.

It surprises me how many Americans need to be convinced that racism actually exists in large numbers in this country. Usually, these people are not ethnic minorities. But the reality of racism in the United States and the extent, is very well documented and researched.

 

[Alethea]

Atlanta shooting suspect entered spa an hour before gunfire erupted: report

According to surveillance video obtained by The Washington Post, Robert Aaron Long spent roughly an hour outside Young’s Asian Massage before entering the spa. After entering, one hour and 12 minutes passed before he is seen getting into his car. Police arrived at the spa minutes later.

The time of his departure from Young’s Asian Massage was four minutes before Cherokee County law enforcement received their first reports of shots fired.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2021/03/19/surveillance-video-atlanta-shooting/

BBM. That's a long time to premeditate. A long time to change your mind. A long time to ponder the consequences. A long time to realize you're having a bad day and go get a cupcake instead of murder innocent people.

 

[gitana1]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

I was citing articles about the uptick in crimes against Asians. It's part of the threads dialogue. None of the articles that I linked, called any of them a "hate crime" against Asians, but they were examples of the hatred and violence Asians are experiencing, at the hands of other minority groups. That one guy in the article was actually hitting Asian women with a hard object, but MSM refrained from calling it a "hate crime".

In this murder case, where even the FBI said that the investigation is ongoing, and at this time there is no proof to support a racially motivated "hate crime" this incident is being used as a reactionary event by the Mayor of Atlanta, and Biden/Harris. And I find that strange...

I was also very surprised, as I'm sure others would be, to find out that a largest percentage are being committed by other minority groups.

A “reactionary event”? What does that mean? Are we not supposed to react with outrage and horror that seven women and six Asians were targeted and murdered? The officials you listed noted that this massacre occurred at a time when hate crimes are increasing against Asians. That’s true.

And it doesn’t matter if people from other minority groups are committing the bulk of them (please cite your source). If race is a reason for the abuse or assault, it is within the definition of a hate crime.

As I said, I’m withholding judgment. But I didn’t hear any of those officials labeled it a hate crime.

 

[coffeeandacig]

I’m withholding judgment as to his motives. I’m not sure this will satisfy the hate crime requirements. But would it surprise you to think that this guy is racist?

He used these women for sex and then decided to kill them. Clearly he didn’t think much of them, either way. It’s interesting because there are plenty of white sex workers to choose from. The fact that he targeted Asian women for both sex and death, is certainly a red flag, at least for me.

It surprises me how many Americans need to be convinced that racism actually exists in large numbers in this country. Usually, these people are not ethnic minorities. But the reality of racism in the United States and the extent, is very well documented and researched.

DBM...Oh well...

 

[dixiegirl1035]

The television show 20/20 starts in 15 minutes on ABC Eastern Time Zone. It is a one-hour special on the Atlanta murders

 

[steeltowngirl]

March 18 2021
The Atlanta Shooter Killed Six Women of Asian Descent. Isn’t That A Hate Crime?
''The shooter walked into three separate parlors that he reportedly frequented, intending to kill the Asian women that worked there. How, many wondered, could this not be deemed a hate crime?

The debate over what legally constitutes a hate crime—and the barriers to prosecuting them—stretches back decades. So does confusion about hate-crime laws by the American public. In order to charge an individual with a hate crime, law enforcement must be able to prove that an offense was specifically motivated by hate or bias. But authorities aren’t mind-readers; even if the victims all belong to a certain race, religion, sexual orientation or other protected class, prosecutors need to be able to present evidence of this bias in the attacker’s previous actions, words or affiliations.''

Sadly, here in Pittsburgh, we have experienced several mass shootings triggered by hate, notably the Jewish synagogue shooting in 2018, the LA Fitness shootings of women in 2009, and the Baumhammers racially motivated spree killing in 2000. I recall learning of each shooting as it was happening, as vividly as I recall where I was on 9/11.

Referencing the Baumhammers case as an example, even if they can determine that the Atlanta shooter was motivated by hate, his mental status will also likely factor into determining whether he will be convicted.

Richard Baumhammers is on Pennsylvania’s death row for the April 28, 2000, murders. His attorneys argued that he suffered from mental illness and committed the crimes while he was delusional, something prosecutors successfully disputed.

The same psychiatrist who testified that racist ideology -- not mental problems -- motivated Richard Baumhammers' shooting spree defended that position during the killer's bid for a new trial.

Nationally known psychiatrist Dr. Michael Welner testified for more than an hour during contentious questioning from Baumhammers' new attorney, Caroline Roberto.

"This was a hate crime. It was a hate crime when I testified in 2001, and it's a hate crime now," Welner said after the hearing. "Richard Baumhammers killed those people because he was a white supremacist who happened to be treated for a delusional disorder."

Richard Baumhammers still on death row 20 years after killing spree | TribLIVE.com

https://archive.triblive.com/news/baumhammers-hate-crime-motivation-defended/

 

[LinasK]

The television show 20/20 starts in 15 minutes on ABC Eastern Time Zone. It is a one-hour special on the Atlanta murders

Thanks for the heads up.