GUILTY GA - Lauren Giddings, 27, Macon, 26 June 2011 # 7

[bessie]

Since the subject has come up again, here's a thought that came to mind last week regarding the downstairs neighbor. Through his mother and lawyer, we've learned that McD has pointed a finger at the MM. Why is no one in his camp raising questions about the downstairs neighbor. Seems he's the most logical candidate to be the "real killer" since the refrigerator was removed from his apartment. That's a much stronger reason to suspect him than a story about a guy wanting to cut grass at midnight. Could it be that he has a rock solid alibi? Could it be that McD is aware that pointing a finger at him would never fly because the guy was nowhere around?

 

[Backwoods]

I know a lot of you have concluded the resident in the downstairs apartment simply didn't come back during the week LG was missing. I have serious doubts based on what has been reported. I would love to hear a definite answer and not a guess on this one, but I guess that isn't happening. It throws a monkey wrench into a lot of theories if they were in and out of the apartment. It could mean they were also involved. It could mean they never looked in the refrigerator. It could mean the body was never in the refrigerator. It could mean a lot of things.

I am not trying to make anyone get defensive, but I am looking at the words written in the news articles based on the reports by BB. If she is stating exactly what happened, and they were moving out that week, then the refrigerator is most likely out of play. So, how could these theories work if McD DID NOT use the downstairs refrigerator?

I won't be really shocked if we learn later that there is no evidence that the downstairs refrigerator was used for such a purpose, by anyone.

 

[SouthernKate]

Here's something that's been bothering me since the whole revelation of the search warrant looking for blue/grey fibers admission by GM. Now, I know we don't know all the evidence that LE has. And I hope, really hope, that they have conclusive evidence. But this search for fibers kind of screams to me that there isn't DNA evidence on Lauren's remains, so they are looking for something else.

I guess we'll see, but I just hope that all these other theories by GM aren't coming out to provide reasonable doubt..We've all wondered why the torso was disposed of so close by. Was it panic/convenience or was it bc the killer knew there was no evidence on the remains? None of the other remains have been found - so I think that's something to consider.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

If the hacksaw had been cleaned, it's likely that the only part that would still retain DNA would be the blade, it would be much harder to get everything out of the teeth of the blade than it would off the smoother handle part. So if the handle was clean and the blade retained DNA it might not necessarily mean anything.

The same would be true for any knife used to cut someone. You may find DNA of the victim on the blade but not on the handle. Frequently, DNA is found at the point where the knife and blade meet. Blood can seep up under the handle and isn't thoroughly washed out although it may look clean to the naked eye.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

I won't be really shocked if we learn later that there is no evidence that the downstairs refrigerator was used for such a purpose, by anyone.

Time will tell. They didn't remove it on a whim.

 

[~SuperSleuth~]

Just going over some of the potential evidence in my mind.

If the DNA came back from the hacksaw ... What about the drains? Makes me wonder if there was not any present. We've discussed the use of plastic. If he bundled it up put it in another plastic trash bag and threw it away, where is it now? Barrister dumpster, another commercial dumpster in town?

Does the McD family own any property other than the home in Lilburn? Any other family members own property with a cabin on it?

Someone stated here a while back they saw Burns on Live@5 state they found blood in her drain.
I checked out that episode once it was posted, there was no interview with Burns.
I'm thinking he saw a short news segment during that broadcast, and misinterpreted what he heard.
I've yet to hear of any such results.

I've also brought up (more than once I think) the idea that LE should search any properties belonging
to any SM's family members, or properties he would be familiar with and had access to.
But, I really don't know at this point if they could get such a warrant,
unless they found info that seemed to indicate he planned to bury or keep some part of her.
My only concern would be that if he did such a thing,
if his family members were to start looking around their properties and find something... would they tell?

 

[Destini]

I know a lot of you have concluded the resident in the downstairs apartment simply didn't come back during the week LG was missing. I have serious doubts based on what has been reported. I would love to hear a definite answer and not a guess on this one, but I guess that isn't happening. It throws a monkey wrench into a lot of theories if they were in and out of the apartment. It could mean they were also involved. It could mean they never looked in the refrigerator. It could mean the body was never in the refrigerator. It could mean a lot of things.

I am not trying to make anyone get defensive, but I am looking at the words written in the news articles based on the reports by BB. If she is stating exactly what happened, and they were moving out that week, then the refrigerator is most likely out of play. So, how could these theories work if McD DID NOT use the downstairs refrigerator?

For what it's worth, I agree with you, PM. Saying he was in the process of moving to me means just that, he was in the process. Remembering from my younger days & observing some recent moves of young people in the family, they tend to just slowly move stuff in their car rather than using a moving company & making one trip. Not saying that's what happened, but I wonder.

Assuming McD is the perp & he didn't use the downstairs refrigerator, I would say he either used his own refrigerator or she was held captive & killed at the last minute IMO.

 

[PsychoMom]

For what it's worth, I agree with you, PM. Saying he was in the process of moving to me means just that, he was in the process. Remembering from my younger days & observing some recent moves of young people in the family, they tend to just slowly move stuff in their car rather than using a moving company & making one trip. Not saying that's what happened, but I wonder.

Assuming McD is the perp & he didn't use the downstairs refrigerator, I would say he either used his own refrigerator or she was held captive & killed at the last minute IMO.

You're right about how a lot of young people move. A couple of boxes here and there. You round up someone with a truck and try to move furniture. Then you move a few more boxes. It tends to be drawn out. I think if they found blood in the refrigerator downstairs, it may have been tested, but it could have been from regular every day meat, not a body.

I hate to think she was kept alive during that time frame. To me, that is worse than her dying the first night right away. I can't imagine the fear, pain, and terror she would have endured if kept alive. I would prefer to think if McD did it, he used his own refrigerator.

 

[bessie]

Here's something that's been bothering me since the whole revelation of the search warrant looking for blue/grey fibers admission by GM. Now, I know we don't know all the evidence that LE has. And I hope, really hope, that they have conclusive evidence. But this search for fibers kind of screams to me that there isn't DNA evidence on Lauren's remains, so they are looking for something else.

I guess we'll see, but I just hope that all these other theories by GM aren't coming out to provide reasonable doubt..We've all wondered why the torso was disposed of so close by. Was it panic/convenience or was it bc the killer knew there was no evidence on the remains? None of the other remains have been found - so I think that's something to consider.

It takes more than DNA to make a case. LE needs all the pieces of the puzzle, or as many as they can find. DNA would be the clincher, but to win a conviction, the DA will have to present the jury with the whole picture. The defense will argue away the DNA unless there's good supporting evidence to show it could only have been transmitted to wherever it was found in the commission of the crime.

 

[Destini]

Since the subject has come up again, here's a thought that came to mind last week regarding the downstairs neighbor. Through his mother and lawyer, we've learned that McD has pointed a finger at the MM. Why is no one in his camp raising questions about the downstairs neighbor. Seems he's the most logical candidate to be the "real killer" since the refrigerator was removed from his apartment. That's a much stronger reason to suspect him than a story about a guy wanting to cut grass at midnight. Could it be that he has a rock solid alibi? Could it be that McD is aware that pointing a finger at him would never fly because the guy was nowhere around?

Really good questions. And if McD wanted to try to frame someone & he knew her body had been stored in that refrigerator, the most logical person to point the finger at would be the downstairs neighbor, not MM. But seems like he would have left the saw there also.

I'm not totally convinced McD did this, although I am leaning more in that direction than before. Saying that, my experience has been that people with very high IQ's sometimes are lacking in common sense. I'm starting to wonder about that.

 

[Knox]

Someone stated here a while back they saw Burns on Live@5 state they found blood in her drain.
I checked out that episode once it was posted, there was no interview with Burns.
I'm thinking he saw a short news segment during that broadcast, and misinterpreted what he heard.
I've yet to hear of any such results.

I've also brought up (more than once I think) the idea that LE should search any properties belonging
to any SM's family members, or properties he would be familiar with and had access to.
But, I really don't know at this point if they could get such a warrant,
unless they found info that seemed to indicate he planned to bury or keep some part of her.
My only concern would be that if he did such a thing,
if his family members were to start looking around their properties and find something... would they tell?

LE seems to strongly believe the apartment complex is "the" crime scene. Not disputing that, just wondering if there could be an alternate reason for the lack of DNA. But that doesn't make sense, does it? Dismember her elsewhere and bring her torso and the hacksaw back home? I'd better quit while I'm ahead.

 

[~SuperSleuth~]

I won't be really shocked if we learn later that there is no evidence that the downstairs refrigerator was used for such a purpose, by anyone.

As has apartment No. 1 a floor below, beneath where Giddings lived. That apartment’s refrigerator was hauled away by detectives on July 13, apparently bound for a forensic lab, and it will need to be replaced for a new resident, Bush said, because the one taken by police isn’t expected to be returned for six to nine months.

http://www.macon.com/2011/07/31/1649731/giddings-case-apartments-gradually.html

To me, that means the FBI or GBI wanted it.
So, there must be a reason. As AngelAnalyses, I believe, pointed out, they probably determined
from their examiniation of the torso that it was in a refridgerator at some point.
And that would be the most likely one used.
The Macon PD may have also discovered it had been recently thoroughly cleaned,
or had NO prints on it anywhere (remember all that dust) which would have been another indication it was used.

So, it would surprise me at this point if it was NOT used. IMO

 

[pearl]

For what it's worth, I agree with you, PM. Saying he was in the process of moving to me means just that, he was in the process. Remembering from my younger days & observing some recent moves of young people in the family, they tend to just slowly move stuff in their car rather than using a moving company & making one trip. Not saying that's what happened, but I wonder.

Assuming McD is the perp & he didn't use the downstairs refrigerator, I would say he either used his own refrigerator or she was held captive & killed at the last minute IMO.

Within the time frame from Lauren's last known email until her torso was found, when would you consider the last minute?

 

[PsychoMom]

To me, that means the FBI or GBI wanted it.
So, there must be a reason. As AngelAnalyses, I believe, pointed out, they probably determined
from their examiniation of the torso that it was in a refridgerator at some point.
And that would be the most likely one used.
The Macon PD may have also discovered it had been recently thoroughly cleaned,
or had NO prints on it anyway (remember all that dust) which would have been another indication it was used.

So, it would surprise me at this point if it was NOT used. IMO

BBM

Or it could mean the tenant moving out had already taken his food and cleaned the refrigerator before he finished cleaning everything else out of the apartment. It would be freshly cleaned and may not have any prints.

I have no doubt they found something of interest there, but I have doubts it will end up being connected to LG. I can see meat having gone bad, maybe dripped some blood in the bottom. It stank, so the tenant emptied it and cleaned it up. No ill intent, just trying to get things done.

That does not mean McD is innocent, it just makes sense based on the information reported. By questioning the validity of that refrigerator being used, I am not saying McD couldn't have done it unless he had access to that one single refrigerator. But, it does mean I want to look at other possibilities of how it could have been done by him or by anyone else. We do not want an innocent man convicted anymore than we want a guilty one to go free.

 

[Destini]

[/b]


Within the time frame from Lauren's last known email until her torso was found, when would you consider the last minute?

Had to think about that one. My first thought was once he knew the friends were looking for her & police had been called, at that point. But due to the fact the body was already decomposed to the point it had an odor the next morning makes me think it had to have been a day or two. But I'm no expert, that's just my thought.

 

[angelanalyzes]

To me, that means the FBI or GBI wanted it.
So, there must be a reason. As AngelAnalyses, I believe, pointed out, they probably determined
from their examiniation of the torso that it was in a refridgerator at some point.
And that would be the most likely one used.
The Macon PD may have also discovered it had been recently thoroughly cleaned,
or had NO prints on it anywhere (remember all that dust) which would have been another indication it was used.

So, it would surprise me at this point if it was NOT used. IMO

I was told by a tipster before the refrigerator was ever removed that SOMETHING was found in that downstairs unit. Then the unit was removed a day or two later. I feel that source is reliable, as they had information beforehand, before anyone was even talking about it. I believe something was found in that refrigerator,
As Colonel Mustard said, they didn't remove it on a whim. Something lead them there specifically. They aren't interested in the former tenant as a potential perp, so that points strongly in the direction of him having a really strong alibi considering they removed his refrigerator but didn't name him a POI or suspect!
Think about that.
Also, I think if the tenant had in fact returned to the apartment during the time before the body was discovered, that would be highly newsworthy, as it would be very disturbing for the tenant and reporters/investigators would have a million questions for them in terms of if they noticed an odor or if it looked like anyone had been going in there, etc.

 

[pearl]

Had to think about that one. My first thought was once he knew the friends were looking for her & police had been called, at that point. But due to the fact the body was already decomposed to the point it had an odor the next morning makes me think it had to have been a day or two. But I'm no expert, that's just my thought.

I know this question is of a delicate nature. Would they be able to tell anything from the torso about rigor mortis or livor mortis? I know they are both used to determine time of death in some cases and position of the body right after death.

 

[Destini]

I'll be sooo glad when the FBI/GBI forensics come back because this fence I'm sitting on is getting uncomfortable.

I want to know if there's a direct link to McD or not. I may get boo'ed & hiss'ed for saying it, but with the way things stand right now I'm glad his family is hiring the PI. I don't blame them.

 

[bessie]

LE seems to strongly believe the apartment complex is "the" crime scene. Not disputing that, just wondering if there could be an alternate reason for the lack of DNA. But that doesn't make sense, does it? Dismember her elsewhere and bring her torso and the hacksaw back home? I'd better quit while I'm ahead.

But how do we know there's a lack of DNA?

 

[angelanalyzes]

BBM

Or it could mean the tenant moving out had already taken his food and cleaned the refrigerator before he finished cleaning everything else out of the apartment. It would be freshly cleaned and may not have any prints.

I have no doubt they found something of interest there, but I have doubts it will end up being connected to LG. I can see meat having gone bad, maybe dripped some blood in the bottom. It stank, so the tenant emptied it and cleaned it up. No ill intent, just trying to get things done.

That does not mean McD is innocent, it just makes sense based on the information reported. By questioning the validity of that refrigerator being used, I am not saying McD couldn't have done it unless he had access to that one single refrigerator. But, it does mean I want to look at other possibilities of how it could have been done by him or by anyone else. We do not want an innocent man convicted anymore than we want a guilty one to go free.

In response to what I bolded:
They would swab whatever fluid they found, then take the sample to the lab to determine if it was human. As the intended purpose of a refrigerator is to store food, such as meat, they would first assume it was like you said, meat drippings. Once the test came back positive for human bio fluid, then they'd go through the trouble of removing the whole unit for further testing and as a crime scene, or at least taped off as such. The whole apartment was at one point considered a crime scene. IMO, that
wouldn't happen unless they had some conclusive reason to believe it was not just innocent animal material in the refrigerator.