GUILTY GA - Lauren Giddings, 27, Macon, 26 June 2011 # 7

[3doglady]

In response to what I bolded:
They would swab whatever fluid they found, then take the sample to the lab to determine if it was human. As the intended purpose of a refrigerator is to store food, such as meat, they would first assume it was like you said, meat drippings. Once the test came back positive for human bio fluid, then they'd go through the trouble of removing the whole unit for further testing and as a crime scene, or at least taped off as such. The whole apartment was at one point considered a crime scene. IMO, that
wouldn't happen unless they had some conclusive reason to believe it was not just innocent animal material in the refrigerator.

They could have found a DNA fragment that wasn't enough to rule LG in or out. Then they requested the frig so they could continue to test.

 

[3doglady]

I'll be sooo glad when the FBI/GBI forensics come back because this fence I'm sitting on is getting uncomfortable.

I want to know if there's a direct link to McD or not. I may get boo'ed & hiss'ed for saying it, but with the way things stand right now I'm glad his family is hiring the PI. I don't blame them.

I know what you mean. I fell off the fence after he was arrested but I'm still standing beside it ready to climb back up if there's no solid evidence.

 

[Backwoods]

In first thread, just after LE located Lauren’s remains at Barrister Hall, there was extensive discussion about---
---Where were her remains, when LE initially came to BH, early in the morning, re missing person call?
---If remains were there, outside apt. (meaning either in rollaway-can or on the ground), why did no one detect the odor, which was reported later in the morning?

Can any W/S’er link to MSM re --
---LE’s initial time of arrival at BH re missing person?
---name of responding officer?
---LE’s announcement re time of locating them?
---name of LE officer, if any, named, as the one who located remains?
---exactly where were remains found? Rollaway can? On ground? Under tree at base of steps?

I recall varying info on all these points, from different articles or interviews.
Was a “W/S consensus” reached?

TIA.

I think I feel safe saying there is a "W/S consensus" that the remains were found in the rollaway bin. Check the new Media thread for this case to find a number of references, would be my suggestion.

link: GA - Lauren Giddings, 27, Macon, 27 June 2011 *Media Links* - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[Givsmetheshivers]

One more thing. I just think this story McD told Mama is answering some of our questions.

McD tells Mama that he hears a loud noice Thurs night.

Keep in mind that McD doesn't know what others in the complex heard. SO he will say he heard a loud noise to cover up the fact that she was shot.

Then he says that MM mentions cutting the grass.

Could he have killed her with the gun, then used a chain saw?

 

[pearl]

I had an ironic moment yesterday. As I was sitting at my computer reading Websleuths, my husband brought in the mail. I got a summons for grand jury duty in my county at the end of August. I sure am glad I don't live in Bibb County.

 

[PsychoMom]

I am not trying to be argumentive here. The following is what I think based on what I have read. I think the arrest warrant leads the DNA on the hacksaw (discussed a lot already) directly to SM. The hacksaw has DNA on it. The DNA is Lauren's so therefore it was used for some reason on Lauren. The arrest warrant is issued against SM, not the MM, not anyone else but him. If the evidence leads to another person, LE will dismiss charges against SM and then file charges against that person. LE has had enough time to get plenty more results back from the FBI and GBI. If these results are pointing at SM, he will remain charged with this crime. He is still charged with this crime so the evidence must be pointing to him. Do I know this for a fact? No, I do not and will quickly acknowledge if I am proved wrong. I don't think Macon LE wants to put itself in danger of being sued for violating SM's civil rights by keeping him charged with murder and in jail when the evidence points away from him and to someone else.

At this point, they have not directly connected the hacksaw found in the closet to the packaging found in McD's apartment. They may. I hope they do. I am basing my ideas on the information we do have confirmed. That is itty bitty. We can all hazard a guess, and if you fill in the blank with what you 'think' something is or isn't, you can come up with a conclusion that someone is or isn't guilty. I am trying to use what we can verify. We cannot verify the hacksaw in the closet is the same one - at this time. I think there is a good chance they will, but they haven't. Unless you play madlibs with the facts, you can't know for sure about anything. And, yeah, that bugs me. So, while I think it is most likely McD, I am going to look at all the other options.

I still think it is a possibility someone from her running group came up to her apartment knowing she was about to leave and said, "Hey, come out to the car. I've got something for you before you leave." She steps out to the car. They use a taser. She's gone. As for the body being discovered where it was, they may have brought her body back to make LE stick closer to home in their search. Or maybe they took her into one of the other empty apartments and did something there. I don't know that is what happened, but I do not know that is NOT what happened either.

You seem to think if I am not hanging McD tonight, I think he is innocent. I haven't said that. I have said we should toss around all other options. We need to see how and why we can rule out other possibilities based on what we have available. Not much available, though. I hope we will hear more soon. But, guys, don't take my asking questions and posing other options as a threat to your belief. I like open discussion of why this or that doesn't work. Not, "Because I said so!" or "They wouldn't do that!" Real, honest discussion about the facts we have, and what they could or could not mean. Yeah, we have to make some guesses, but one guess isn't the only option. Consider other options and see how it plays out in your mind.

 

[Backwoods]

One more thing. I just think this story McD told Mama is answering some of our questions.

McD tells Mama that he hears a loud noice Thurs night.

Keep in mind that McD doesn't know what others in the complex heard. SO he will say he heard a loud noise to cover up the fact that she was shot.

Then he says that MM mentions cutting the grass.

Could he have killed her with the gun, then used a chain saw?

Don't know about all that ... but if she was shot, it wasn't on Thursday night.

And this does remind me about something I've been wanting to ask: Does anyone know if the "door jam" Lauren had was one of the purely mechanical types or one of the kind that also have an audible alarm incorporated into it?

 

[Backwoods]

At this point, they have not directly connected the hacksaw found in the closet to the packaging found in McD's apartment. They may. I hope they do. I am basing my ideas on the information we do have confirmed. That is itty bitty. We can all hazard a guess, and if you fill in the blank with what you 'think' something is or isn't, you can come up with a conclusion that someone is or isn't guilty. I am trying to use what we can verify. We cannot verify the hacksaw in the closet is the same one - at this time. I think there is a good chance they will, but they haven't. Unless you play madlibs with the facts, you can't know for sure about anything. And, yeah, that bugs me. So, while I think it is most likely McD, I am going to look at all the other options.

I still think it is a possibility someone from her running group came up to her apartment knowing she was about to leave and said, "Hey, come out to the car. I've got something for you before you leave." She steps out to the car. They use a taser. She's gone. As for the body being discovered where it was, they may have brought her body back to make LE stick closer to home in their search. Or maybe they took her into one of the other empty apartments and did something there. I don't know that is what happened, but I do not know that is NOT what happened either.

(snipped for focus, and bolding mine)

I've always thought it possible that a perp living in the near vicinity, but not at the apartments, or frequenting that vicinity enough to catch on that LE was getting involved, might have found the apartment complex a "good" site to dispose of the torso. "Hey, that's where they're looking right now, and better on her doorstep than mine" kind of thing.

 

[angelanalyzes]

They could have found a DNA fragment that wasn't enough to rule LG in or out. Then they requested the frig so they could continue to test.

I have heard from multiple sources that her body was indeed stored in that downstairs unit, one just now tonight. It's my personal opinion that it definitely was used in this crime. JMO though until it is announced officially.

 

[Indy Anna]

~ snipped~

Just a few thoughts along the refrigeration line of evidence:

First, kind of a poll -- never been sure, are most of you thinking refrigeration or freezing? (I kind of figure the freezing might not be possible because of space -- in a refrigerator I mean -- but not sure.)

My opinion is that the body was refrigerated. There must have been a reason the perp retained the torso only, and not the other body parts, so I think he periodically removed it from the frig. If he froze the torso, he would have to wait for it to thaw each time. Also, I think decomposition would have been much more delayed had the torso been frozen since the time of dismemberment. By the time the perp pitched it and it was discovered, the torso had decomposed enough that the smell was distinctive.

 

[bessie]

respectfully snipped

But, guys, don't take my asking questions and posing other options as a threat to your belief. I like open discussion of why this or that doesn't work. Not, "Because I said so!" or "They wouldn't do that!" Real, honest discussion about the facts we have, and what they could or could not mean. Yeah, we have to make some guesses, but one guess isn't the only option. Consider other options and see how it plays out in your mind.

LOL Speaking for myself, I have no beliefs about this case, nothing at stake. I want to know whodunnit, and I want to see that person brought to justice. But it makes no difference to me if it's Stephen McDaniel or the milkman. We can and should consider other options. Believe me, I could come up with slew of them. But they go nowhere because without a factual premise, one can't construct a sound argument, much less reach a conclusion. So we're left to build on the few facts we've been dealt.

 

[pearl]

At this point, they have not directly connected the hacksaw found in the closet to the packaging found in McD's apartment. They may. I hope they do. I am basing my ideas on the information we do have confirmed. That is itty bitty. We can all hazard a guess, and if you fill in the blank with what you 'think' something is or isn't, you can come up with a conclusion that someone is or isn't guilty. I am trying to use what we can verify. We cannot verify the hacksaw in the closet is the same one - at this time. I think there is a good chance they will, but they haven't. Unless you play madlibs with the facts, you can't know for sure about anything. And, yeah, that bugs me. So, while I think it is most likely McD, I am going to look at all the other options.

I still think it is a possibility someone from her running group came up to her apartment knowing she was about to leave and said, "Hey, come out to the car. I've got something for you before you leave." She steps out to the car. They use a taser. She's gone. As for the body being discovered where it was, they may have brought her body back to make LE stick closer to home in their search. Or maybe they took her into one of the other empty apartments and did something there. I don't know that is what happened, but I do not know that is NOT what happened either.

You seem to think if I am not hanging McD tonight, I think he is innocent. I haven't said that. I have said we should toss around all other options. We need to see how and why we can rule out other possibilities based on what we have available. Not much available, though. I hope we will hear more soon. But, guys, don't take my asking questions and posing other options as a threat to your belief. I like open discussion of why this or that doesn't work. Not, "Because I said so!" or "They wouldn't do that!" Real, honest discussion about the facts we have, and what they could or could not mean. Yeah, we have to make some guesses, but one guess isn't the only option. Consider other options and see how it plays out in your mind.

We just read the same information and interpret it differently is all. We have only received a little info from LE. We get the majority of our information from reading newspaper articles or watching the news. We know the news info is slanted to catch people's attention so they will buy the paper or watch the TV news. We receive info out of context. My opinion at this point is SM is guilty. It could change as LE makes more info public. But, for me it is not the hacksaw, its packaging, the bathtub, or the refrigerator. It was SM's reaction to learning of the discovery of the body in that on camera interview. It just screamed "Busted!" to me. I realize my reaction to it is subjective. I'm not a mental health professional or a criminologist. I have worked with teenagers on a daily basis for 29 years and have learned to read body language. His body language and actions upon hearing the news of the discovery makes me think he did this crime. I know that the long interview with SM has been discussed at length here. People have differing opinions on SM's reaction. We do not know whose opinion is right or wrong. Posters have pointed out things that I missed completely. I've learned a good bit of information about the justice process from reading this forum. I'm a born questioner and lifelong learner. I think we are all frustrated at this point with the little we do know. I don't think this police department is going to be very forthcoming with info. Maybe that is the way it should be considering the last case I followed seemed to be played out in the press by both the prosecution and the defense.

 

[angelanalyzes]

respectfully snipped


LOL Speaking for myself, I have no beliefs about this case, nothing at stake. I want to know whodunnit, and I want to see that person brought to justice. But it makes no difference to me if it's Stephen McDaniels or the milkman. We can and should consider other options. Believe me, I could come up with slew of them. But they go nowhere because without a factual premise, one can't construct a sound argument, much less reach a conclusion. So we're left to build on the few facts we've been dealt.

Exactly. I too could come up with other theories, hey we could make a John Grisham novel out of this thing, but I interpret the facts of the case a certain way and the weight of the factual information is against Stephen McDaniel. It's clear as day to me. :rocker:

 

[SouthernKate]

It takes more than DNA to make a case. LE needs all the pieces of the puzzle, or as many as they can find. DNA would be the clincher, but to win a conviction, the DA will have to present the jury with the whole picture. The defense will argue away the DNA unless there's good supporting evidence to show it could only have been transmitted to wherever it was found in the commission of the crime.

Right - I know. I guess my worry was more of wondering that I hope they're searching for fibers in addition to other evidence, rather than because they have none.

Obviously, it will be awhile before we are made aware of any of the details, but I guess it's just one of my concerns. The evidence in the arrest warrant does not directly link McD, and I know the evidence given there is minimal, but I still am hoping that LE has so much more.

Personally, I have read alot on people wrongfully convicted. And I believe very much that you cannot convict anyone with ANY reasonable doubt. I'm on the fence as to whether McD can get a fair trial here. Of course, Buford can file for a change of venue, but seeing as how the conflict of interest hearing turned out, I'm guessing it will stay here.

I guess I just want answers and I know they won't come soon. I was not convinced that McD did it early on, and I can tell you that alot of people here were wary as well. Am I convinced now? Yes. But I hope they have enough to actually find him guilty.

However, with GM sharing every little detail she can, I'm certain that it won't be hard (gah, just imagine her on the witness stand - I'm sure that's Buford's nightmare).

 

[SmoothOperator]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Backwoods
I won't be really shocked if we learn later that there is no evidence that the downstairs refrigerator was used for such a purpose, by anyone.

Originally Posted by Colonel Mustard
Time will tell. They didn't remove it on a whim.

Colonel Mustard is absolutely correct, just as the several others who have made similar statements about the refrigerator from downstairs apt under Lauren's.. Angelanalyzes has been tipped off about particular information about the case[this being one of those] and just as she has relayed to us on multiple occasions throughout this investigation those details and pieces of information have time and time again proven to be true and accurate.. There are several of us here on this board that have been privy to details about this crime and elements in and or around it.. We have on many occasions shared those details and info here in Lauren's threads but are careful to always state that it is rumor until it comes out in the media and is verified..

Certain horses can be beat down to a literal pulp but there are several that have stated that there is very good reason[and specific reasons] for why that downstairs refrigerator was taken.. Think about it logically if it were "on a whim" that the downstairs refrigerator was taken and there were nothing specific about the refrigerator specifically in that downstairs apt and the reason a refrigerator had even come into question is because it was thought that the torso had been kept refrigerated..

It does not add up that the refrigerator from downstairs would be taken only, but rather were it not something specific found in that fridge then logically of course they would have taken all 3 fridges from the 3 separate apts hoping to find a trace evidence of the torso having been in one of them..

Again this is not what happened, instead we see the one fridge that is taken in to the lab and that is, just as many of us have stated due to there being a specific reason the one fridge was taken.. The dead horse can continue to take a beating but it will be just as colonel mustard states above, and just as all of the other info and details have been found to be accurate and true, so too will this info about why the fridge was taken..

Originally Posted by Destini
Maybe I'm just really naive, but the problem I have with a really strong alibi is that they don't know when she died. Suppose a person has a good strong alibi for Saturday night, but she was killed after leaving her apartment early Sunday morning??

Just as was stated early on the downstairs neighbor was out of town for the week and had left before Lauren's having gone missing.. So having a rock solid alibi that can be corroborated and confirmed by witnesses as well as documentation{i.e. a paper trail of sorts that would be possible from using credit cards, passports, IDs leaving a paper trail easily traceable for the time throughout an out of town trip}..would be something that would easily clear or rule out someone as a POI/suspect.. And in answer to your above question destini..I understand what you mean about there being an open window of several days that would need to have a rock solid alibi that would cover that entire window of time in question.. IMO this type of a solid alibi of having been out of town for the duration of the window of time in question..verified thru witnesses as well as a detailed paper trail that would also solidify that an individual was indeed out of town, therefor completely out of the area for the duration of the time in question..

**The rest of the post is not directed toward destini's post but rather jumping off knox's post from earlier tonight about not having a reporter's word as verification***

Just as a few have suggested tonight seeing as how it is unable to be found that a reporter has made this statement due to this tenant being able to fortunately keep his name out of the press.. Since this seems to be the only way some find it to true or accurate is that a local reporter must have to have stated it...as was suggested some may want to request this of a local reporter..but all in all since the tenant is an innocent individual and not in any way involved in any crimes nor a POI or suspect IMO it is his right to keep his name out of the media.. but if thats what some must have for it to be true, then to each their own..

In time it will continue to play out with these things talked about and beat like a poor dead horse..in the end everyone will see it to be infact true and accurate just as many of us have stated...

 

[SouthernKate]

Great post Smooth - while we hear rumors that later have given light to be fact - I'm just hoping (as I said above) that this is not ALL and it's enough to convict. I think in the end, it will be.

That said, yes, the refrigerator was taken for a reason..and I think that, along with other indicators, prove that as this case unfolds, will reveal very sinister elements to this whole story.

The rumors that I have heard, which have so far proven true once they've actually been revealed, indicate an extremely disturbed crime. With that said, I just hope for justice for Lauren and peace for her family.

 

[Sandstorm]

At this point, they have not directly connected the hacksaw found in the closet to the packaging found in McD's apartment. snipped.

According to this article, LE stated in the warrant that the hacksaw packaging material does belong to the hacksaw:

An arrest warrant issued late Tuesday charging McDaniel with murder says police recovered a hacksaw at the Barristers Hall apartment complex where he and Giddings were next-door neighbors. The warrant says investigators also found the saw’s packaging material inside McDaniel’s apartment.

http://www.macon.com/2011/08/04/1654381/warrant-hacksaw-packaging-found.html#ixzz1Uhipm0hc

Copy of Warrant:
http://abovethelaw.com/2011/08/the-plot-thickens-say-hello-to-hacksaw-mcdaniel/

 

[bessie]

I agree with both of you that we've only seen the tip of the iceberg. While we're clamoring for more information, once we hear it, I'm afraid we'll wish we hadn't.

 

[Sandstorm]

One more thing. I just think this story McD told Mama is answering some of our questions.

McD tells Mama that he hears a loud noice Thurs night.

Keep in mind that McD doesn't know what others in the complex heard. SO he will say he heard a loud noise to cover up the fact that she was shot.

Then he says that MM mentions cutting the grass.

Could he have killed her with the gun, then used a chain saw?

I, too, have considered the gun as the weapon in my effort to fit the statement Ms Giddings made:
"I hope they are not hiding anything from me. She didnt know what hit her"... (my paraphrase)
Then again, the noise from a gunshot...??
I have also considered he used a knife to overtake her since McD did have a collection.
Another thought:
Some of us have expressed our wonder at how McD could have overtaken LG.
My thoughts:
If I were awakened with McD standing over me with a gun pointed at my head or a knife at my throat, it would be easy to overtake me. The element of surprise would be a great disadvantage for me especially him being my classmate, neighbor, and someone I trusted.

 

[SmoothOperator]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychoMom
Anyone who has driven through Macon knows there are tons of empty buildings and businesses. Some may have electricity still running to them. Some of the others may even still have refrigeration running if they haven't been closed all that long. I noticed that when we were down there recently. I wondered if any of those areas may have been utilized in this crime. Get LG off the property ASAP and do whatever. Now, if McD did this and chose to bring the torso back for whatever reason, then there could be other items in these empty buildings. It also could open the door for another person to be involved, whether alone or in conjunction with McD. Wouldn't be the first time two perps were involved in a vicious crime.

Opening up to other possibilities. Got to rule them out or they are still in.

Originally Posted by bessie
Show me one fact to support any of that, and I'll consider it.

Really?.. "Got to rule them out or they are still in"..my question is according to who?

bessie's simple statement is absolutely correct..there is no fact that is even being discussed in the above post.. Nothing whatsoever based on any fact.. so again my question regarding, "Got to rule them out or they are still in".. Says who??

Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychoMom
I'm right there with you. I'm not willing to jump in on the firing squad until I know. The information we are getting does not look good, but a lot of it has been superficial stuff. We are not hearing they have him nailed to the wall. We are not hearing that DNA points directly to him. We are not hearing they have a rock solid case. We are not hearing they found anything of substance connecting him to this crime. I know in a zillion other cases, we hear a lot more than this if they know they have their guy. I know they may not reveal everything, but they reveal a lot more than this.
And the lack of information has me worrying. I want it to be McD. It would be great to know they locked up this sick *advertiser censored* right away. But, I have this nagging fear they didn't. They found the weird guy next door who was just stupid enough to run his mouth (he obviously gets that from his mother) and decided he looked like he could do this kind of thing. And then began trying to make the dots connect to him.

Originally Posted by Pearl
I am not trying to be argumentive here. The following is what I think based on what I have read. I think the arrest warrant leads the DNA on the hacksaw (discussed a lot already) directly to SM. The hacksaw has DNA on it. The DNA is Lauren's so therefore it was used for some reason on Lauren. The arrest warrant is issued against SM, not the MM, not anyone else but him. If the evidence leads to another person, LE will dismiss charges against SM and then file charges against that person. LE has had enough time to get plenty more results back from the FBI and GBI. If these results are pointing at SM, he will remain charged with this crime. He is still charged with this crime so the evidence must be pointing to him. Do I know this for a fact? No, I do not and will quickly acknowledge if I am proved wrong. I don't think Macon LE wants to put itself in danger of being sued for violating SM's civil rights by keeping him charged with murder and in jail when the evidence points away from him and to someone else.

pearl, you definitely are not being argumentative in the least.. You are stating the facts of what we know is happening and why combined with drawing logical conclusions that are absolutely 100% safe to draw in this situation. There is not one single, solitary iota of any unprofessional, illegal, negligent behaviors, statements or actions taking place in this investigation when speaking of LE, the GBI, as well as the FBI..the professionals that are running this entire investigation along with DA Winters preparing for a trial for the murder charge against the defendant Stephen Mark McDaniel that should he not some how plead out, will eventually be held and tried in a court of law..

Due to the fact that there has been nothing but a very efficient, highly professional, extreme high integrity, and well guarded investigation resulting with the criminal who committed this heinous crime charged for it.. This is the facts.. The true facts and in order for McDaniel to be wrongly arrested, wrongly accused is very much implying that LE, the GBI, and the FBI have in some way, be it intentional or through negligence have behaved in a downright illegal manner.. That is a fact as well.. it can be argued til the cows come home that's not what is meant but the fact is in continuing to act like there is zero evidence linking McDaniel to being the individual responsible for Lauren's death and that its even possible that the wrong man is charged.. that is directly accusing these agencies LE, FBI, GBI to have engaged in illegal behavior{again be it intentional or thru negligence both are illegal and punishable} and in order for any of these "there is nothing tying SM to the murder" to be true then it has to directly mean that LE, FBI, GBI have taken part in illegal activity..

Is it surprising that implausible scenarios are still being hurled into the air as actual possibilities?..no, not at all is it surprising..its just as I stated weeks ago come time when Stephen McDaniel is arrested and charged with murdering Lauren[just as I prefaced was coming and would be much sooner rather than later].. I also said even when that occurred there would infact still be the totally and completely still unsatisfied.. It was evident long ago FWIW...