GA GA - Shirley, 87, & Russell Dermond, 88, Putnam County, 2 May 2014 - # 7

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Thanks to Bootsctr and atthelake for the bug tips!
There are ducks in the lake but I guess too few to make an impact with the bugs. The green lights would be an easy fix. I will be talking to my hubs about both suggestions!:tyou:
 
<BBM for Focus>

Ocean, maybe this is what Sheriff Sills was referring too when he stated that some portions of this crime indicates a professional, while others indicate an amateur...mixed offender, imo...

Gary Ridgeway; green river serial killer, disposed of victims in water expecting them to rise, and be located...

Websleuths - Gary Ridgeway
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65576&page=2


HMMMM, so he could be in the area, OR he could be GONE, we don't know
according to this, also why they may be looking for another crime scene?



Organized: He will typically use restraints on the victim, and bring a weapon with him, which he will then take with him when he leaves. Typically, the organized offender leaves three crime scenes: Where the victim is confronted, where the victim is killed, and where the victim’s body is disposed of (Vronsky, 2004).

An “organized” (psychopathic, knows right from wrong but shows no remorse) individual is inferred from a controlled, planned, premeditated, little evidence left behind, organized crime scene

•Able to maintain normal family life

•May make an effort to cover up their crimes, often dumping the body in a hidden location and cleaning up the crime scene; some have a working knowledge of forensics


Disorganized: The disarray present at the crime scene may include evidence such as blood, semen, and the murder weapon

The body is often displayed in open view, is usually left where the confrontation took place, and is often subjected to extraordinary mutilation.

A “disorganized” (psychotic, mentally ill) individual is inferred from a chaotic, lots of evidence left behind, disorganized crime scene.

•May be difficult to catch due to constant relocation

http://hunteremkay.com/2012/04/o-is-for-organised-disorganised-and-mixed-typology/
 
I was out working in the garden this weekend while drinking beer and swatting mosquito's and I got into a conversation about this particular case with my live-in girlfriend of 6 years. She isn't a member of Websleuths, and she really doesn't know too much about it, but she knows I follow certain crimes and mysteries on here and she thinks it is an interesting hobby as long as there isn't any flirting and hanky panky going on that might actually result in a criminal act being performed on me.

All that said, I was the one that told her about the Dermonds and the crime in general, along with many of the details made public by the sheriff and the media.
My question to her was what her take on it would be. I will refer to her as MT, which are the initials of her first and last name to avoid a bunch of typing.

She thought it would be a good idea to look into the possibility of a copycat killing which was perpetrated by someone with a fascination over a movie or a movie series. MT seems to think that this could be a single individual or a couple or even a boyfriend and girlfriend team. A lot of teenagers and younger people become totally infatuated with something they see happen in a movie to the point it actually becomes part of their being. MT was wondering if there was a movie out there somewhere that mimics EXACTLY the crime that was perpetrated on the Dermonds. She didn't mean some of the details, she means ALL of the details....to a T. She is of the opinion that the person or persons that committed this crime were probably known to the Dermonds to the point of a friendly wave or a "how are ya' doing?". She doesn't think this is about robbery or trying to get a lot of money, although that would have been a nice bonus. The Dermonds were pretty elderly and fragile, so they would make easy targets. MT is of the opinion that this was a crime committed solely to "see if we can get away with it": just like the killer got away with it in their favorite slasher movie or psycho killer series.

I pressed her a little further and she used as an example the couple that gunned down the two cops in Nevada recently, and then went into the Walmart across the street and kept shooting up innocents. MT's theory was that their favorite move was probably Natural Born Killers and that they had probably watched it hundreds of times to the point of knowing every line in the movie. So, when they get ready to go out and act like Mickey and Mallory, they essentially mimicked everything in that movie with the exception that they went to a Walmart instead of a pharmacy, like in the movie. They gun down cops, they desecrate them with a rebel flag, they randomly shoot people unknown to them, and they have a firefight with the cops. Natural Born Killers--part 2


So, if her theory is true, and someone was actually mimicking something they saw in a movie, how could they be caught ?? MT's idea was that first the movie would need to be found. Same plot, same details. bad guy gets away with it. After that movie is located, a concentrated effort would need to be made through the media that anyone that knows of a teenager, young adult, married couple, or a loner who was fascinated with that movie and that crime to the point of letting it engulf their existence, should be singled out for further review. This wouldn't be someone who watched this flick 5 times. this would be someone who watched it 500 times and tried to dress and act just like the people in the movie, or talked like them, etc. Parents, grandparents, school friends, co-workers, one or all may recognize not only the movie in question but the person that is infatuated with it.

Although this theory on the surface seems somewhat crazy, what about this case has made any sense so far ?? Could it actually be so mundane as a person(s) acting out something that they were infatuated with , to commit the perfect crime? The goal was to literally re-create something they have seen and wanted to try?


Anybody out there that has ever watched a horror flick, slasher flick, serial killer movie that may have this exact plot, please post the name of it here. If you have teenagers around the house, ask them if they have ever seen a movie or a movie series with this plot. I don't normally watch the blood and gore type stuff, but I know there is a whole lot of people out there that do. MT's theory was that the killer(s) would have followed the plot in the movie down to the exact details, includings boats, machetes, and beheadings. The purpose behind this of course would be to avoid getting caught and to perplex the cops and terrorize the public.

MT had an interesting take on it, although she doesn't follow Websleuths or read many of the posts in here too often. This idea, or a version of it. may have already been posted in here. Way too many threads in here for me to go back and avoid duplication though.

If anything can be done in here to help generate ideas and possible theories, it seems like it might be a very good idea. I think the cops are running out of both leads and tips. Maybe something like this slasher flick idea will help to jog somebodies memory.

Per your girlfriend's suggestion about fascination over a movie or a movie series, The Walking Dead comes to my mind. The story is good but oh the graphic gore and the deacapitations are too much for me. Not a similar plot at all but I have wondered about desensitization with certain types of viewers.
 
Interesting. I watch The Walking Dead. One of the more recent horrific losses of a beloved character was that of Herschel. Herschel was like the conscience of the group. His decapitation, before the entire population of the group striving to thrive at the prison, was a message.

I do not believe that show is connected to this crime but had to admit where something jibed with something that had been postulated by a member.
 
Just saw yours from earlier mck16. I am thinking along the same track as you.

What would cause alarm on the lake by the Dermonds? Would spotlights near or flashlights in an unexpected area cause concern? how much concern? A little, go check it out a little closer see if you can hear? Or go find a phone right now call someone?

This has been my thought from the very beginning. I think they could have been awakened by loud noise and partying. I don't think they were really alarmed, I think Mr. D was mad. Maybe it had also happened before and he was just tired of it. I can see him yelling off the porch or even going out into the yard. The perp and I think more than one in his drugged or drunken state went totally nuts and decided this old man was not going to tell him. I wish Mrs. D had called 911, but apparently she didn't have the chance to do that.

I learned a long time ago not to make these kind of people mad. They have no reason about them. When I say, these kind of people, I believe they are young and involved in drugs and no respect for other people. jmo
 
Interesting. I watch The Walking Dead. One of the more recent horrific losses of a beloved character was that of Herschel. Herschel was like the conscience of the group. His decapitation, before the entire population of the group striving to thrive at the prison, was a message.

I do not believe that show is connected to this crime but had to admit where something jibed with something that had been postulated by a member.
Yes, the Herschel story and Michonne and her sword. Gross.
I am not leaning that way either but it does have a huge following and is filmed in GA. They have been filming in my town and there are groups of people who will wait outside the location barriers all night just to get a glimpse of the actors.
 
Do you think it could be patrol checking out the waters? Since they were shining lights toward houses. ty

It was vague shining, I dont think it was patrol, just a fishing boat, you can see the navigation lights, one high up at the stern, looking up various types now, I've seen this type before, often, but to my knowledge never seen DNR out at night but think this was different type boat, seen their's on many ocassions in the daylight
 
It was vague shining, I dont think it was patrol, just a fishing boat, you can see the navigation lights, one high up at the stern, looking up various types now, I've seen this type before, often, but to my knowledge never seen DNR out at night but think this was different type boat, seen their's on many ocassions in the daylight

mck16's post just reminded me of the hit and run several years ago when a guy plowed over a pontoon and killed a man. Was that July 4th? Anyway, that night LE was shining lights all in and around the boat houses and properties looking for the boat. That's the only time I've seen anything like that happening.
 
could someone like LE from a distance been patrolling for some reason? Maybe having gotten calls about someone fishing real close to peoples dock or just "poking around" too close?

Would there be some sort of lake or DNR patrol that would be interested in trying to see sketchy activity?

Sorry for the seeming OT

I am not familiar with full time lake life. My great grandmother lived on a private lake. It was mostly weekend seasonal folks. She lived there full time. It was a small cabin. She was not someone with money or who would have anything anyone would want.

But I also know how things can be on a private lake on a secluded inlet.

The way they turned around at the crossing, like they'd forgotten something, the boat actually did a 180 and went back to the shore and repeated their same process, finally left

Somehow I didn't get the impression it was DNR, nav lights different, tall one in back, what I've seen as fishing boats in the past, all I could tell
 
mck16's post just reminded me of the hit and run several years ago when a guy plowed over a pontoon and killed a man. Was that July 4th? Anyway, that night LE was shining lights all in and around the boat houses and properties looking for the boat. That's the only time I've seen anything like that happening.

That's interesting, very well looked as if they were looking for something but I dont' recall any mishaps, but we were on the boat often too, away from our place and neighbors were scarce this weekend, didn't hear anything if so

telescoping pole light

http://www.attwoodmarine.com/store/product/lighting-telescoping-pole-light

dont' recall this style on DNR boats
 
Respectfully, I'm not sure how likely some of your suggestions are. Forensic accountants should be able to rule in or out some of them. But as for 'any more' -- as rare as it is, there are sometimes murders based in incorrect information or incorrect execution from the perps -- that is, they may hear that an address has a stash of cash, drugs, or guns, but they may hit the wrong house, or have bad information to begin with. These crimes happen, and they're not mafia, cartel, sk, thrill-killers, or, for that matter, cults.

I was referring to that question only, another posting has a link about types of serial killers, this one DOES seem to be a mixed type as foxfire has pointed out
 
So this is what we know so far:

Who- don't know
What- murders and dismemberment
Where- don't know
Why- don't know
When- don't know
How- don't know

I sure hope police and FBI have more of these answers!

Yeah, wow, seeing that in print is very alarming, I do hope and pray LE is hourding information on this case, I think they have the killer/s profiled, just hope they are right, what good it will do, the perp/s may be long gone, whoever they are, may never be found, on the other hand, if it's a neighbor or neighbor kid, hope someone finds a clue SOOOOn
 
Thank you 2Hope4! TK is correct IMO of a most excellent post by you!

I've snipped and pasted a bit, but tried to keep the integrity of your great post intact.

I've responded to some of your post in red, but I think you are asking the right questions too!



Could the perp have attended the Derby party and the same church at the Dermonds? If so and some were concerned they weren't at church on Sunday this same person from the party again calmed the group and said he/she said they're fine. I saw him walking Friday morning. Their kids might have showed up for a surprise visit. But I'm sure that if Shirley knew her daughter or either son was coming for a visit - she would have mentioned it on Thursday at the bridge game because "she loved talking about her daughter" and she probably would have told the bridge ladies that family was coming for the weekend. I don't believe that happened. They probably had talked about "the Derby party" during the bridge game and Shirley had told her partner and other members that she and Russ had already RSVP'd to be at the Party. What is that I hear - an elephant?

Thank you 2Hope4 for a great post and excellent questions. I think we must be related. Just emptied my dryer and put the lint in the compost. Hens are laying like little egg-laying machines. Anybody need a dozen of fresh eggs? :seeya:

Boots, you rang?! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQzV_p8fJ9U

You know that sounds very interesting and I know you have mentioned this before, about the derby party or someone checking on them, may be the perp/s

wish we knew what time someone inquired assuming this was during the party on saturday, your theory would indicate it then had happened on fri night, thus having time to show up at party and criminals can go on about as if nothing happened too ! exclammation for emphasis, not yelling, lol

DID anything more come out about the sat night noises or visitor? was it someone looking for the D's too? that was allegedly on saturday?

If it's someone right in the community as has been suggested, well, the derby party was a really good decoy, people were busy and some kind soul to say they'd called and checked up on them, someone they knew, making excuses to keep LE at bay and others they knew

Thanks, that's VERY interesting!
 
For those of y'all that are discussing what type of person would do such a thing as a beheading, here is a case that involved dismemberment and happened in Macon Georgia (about an hour south of Atlanta) and on April 24, 2014 was plead out. The convicted murderer was a 28 year old law school graduate from Mercer University.

http://www.macon.com/2014/04/21/3057637/mcdaniel-to-plead-guilty.html

What I found of interest was this video of him being interviewed by local media the day after she went missing, and his reactions/statements including what happens when the media "informs him" that Miss Giddings' (his next door neighbor) torso had just been found
watch


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KIroLgiCyP8

And the insult/injury of his complaints after his court date are summarized here http://www.macon.com/2014/04/25/3064286/mcdaniels-parting-shot-i-was-wronged.html?sp=/99/148/ and the letter to the court he wrote is here http://media.macon.com/smedia/2014/04/24/23/05/18Oya6.So.71.pdf#storylink=relast

The above is for those that were asking for insight as to "who could dismember" etc. as it relates to the Dermond case. HTH
 
I still can't completely write off the possibility that this all may have begun as an intended kidnapping for ransom:

Elderly couple - though in relatively good health, it seems, likely still "easy to manage"

Couple themselves are wealthy

Their adult children do not live in the area and so are not likely to "drop in"

Also, those adult children are said to be well-off themselves

Whether, in this scenario, the plan would have been to abduct only one and leave the other behind, murdered, as a message ("We're serious") -- I am not sure. I would rather think the plan was to take both but something went wrong that ended in Russell's death. (Because who would intentionally add obvious murder to the crime of kidnapping, right at the outset...? But then again, who knows, sometimes, why perps do things the way they do things.) Then, with Russell's death (probably right afterwards, but if not then very soon, what with intense LE and media attention, FBI right in the mix early) the whole kidnap scheme was abandoned, and Shirley killed. Thus no ransom demands ever made. Main new focus: self-preservation.

In another direction
-- not the kidnapping one: I also still wonder, if the perp/s truly came looking for something that the Dermonds "didn't have and couldn't get", whether that something was an intangible something ...some kind of information.
 
While pondering along the lines of kidnapping for ransom, I revisited the 1988 case of Annie Laurie Swaim Hearin of Mississippi. She has a brief thread here on WS:

MS MS - Annie Laurie Swaim Hearin, 73, Jackson, 26 July 1988 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


and here is her Charley Project page:

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/h/hearin_annie.html

Not really related to this case -- although there are a few slightly eerie similarities; and, in this case, the husband was not killed nor abducted. Still, I thought I would link these ... just MIGHT be something here to spark a thought in this case that might lead somewhere.
 
Trivia:

From Wikipedia:

From 1942 to 1945, Westclox ceased all production intended for domestic civilian sale and dedicated its production resources to the war effort, becoming a major manufacturer of fuses for military ordnance.

In fact, Westclox was bought out by Talley Systems in the late 1970's, I believe. Talley was a company specializing military defense manufacturing and acquired Westclox because they made an instrument that went in military jets.

Shortly after that time, the Dermonds moved to AZ (headquarters of Talley), where I assume RD began to work for that company. They lived there for several years, maybe more, as there are a few years between when their AZ house sold and they bought the Shady Springs home.

Sometime in the 1980s, there was a big court case about the validity of the buyout of Westclox by Talley, and I believe Westclox was awarded their independence again. I get the impression it was a hotly contested debate; and I'm sure involved whistle-blowers. It is still a case study in texts online (not sure for law or business, though)

My focus has always been on the D's live from the late 1970s to the 1980s.

They earned an exceptional amount of money from a mid to high level management position at a relatively small company. Heck, enough to buy SIXTEEN fast food restaurants! Just for comparison in today's dollars, that would take well over 16 million to do in the Hardees franchise.

No one ever suggested this, and perhaps this is completely off base, but could the family fortune been from Mrs. D's family?? After all, she did attend a very prestigious college that couldn't have been inexpensive, in a time most women didn't even GO to college?!

We know all about Mr. D's life, but almost nothing about Shirley's family.
 
See above post - meant to do a reply to your post.





ETA: A follow up of the above post - afterward the trial - that the Macon Telegraph did which is interesting. Also notes that the FBI BAU was involved in profiling and recovering "erased" video. http://www.macon.com/2014/05/03/3079983/how-lauren-giddings-killer-could.html?sp=/99/148/198/210/830/

so it may be realized now, my paranoia, haha

THAT was also 20 minutes from my home and my rental for Mercer Law Students, my rental was basically across the street, behind law school as the crime scene was front of law school, walk, 1 minute TOPS

She was single, young woman, isolated that week, STS, due to bar exams, typically students are on "lockdown" during this time, PERFECT TIMING, I think she had even stated to her family or friends that if they don't hear from her that week, it's becuase she was studying

Personally I see this case a little differently but that case invovled only one victim, I feel he was obsessed with HER........AND with committing the perfect crime, not an elderly couple

Of course some just want to kill and the D's may have been perfect target, maybe not on lockdown but maybe very PRIVATE individuals that were perfect targets

SO, after typing that, it may not be that different afterall, except I think in that case, dismemberment was due to the perps hiding of evidence, the severed appendage in D's case seems to ME to be on purpose but IDK really

That being said, it appears to be a way to confuse investigators, appears disorganized and organized, a mix as foxfire states

I read the FBI profile, posted that link up thread
 
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