General Discussion and Theories #3

[Archangel7]

What if TB's remains were discovered by a neighbor(s) while atving? They would notify police and police would arrive, look at the "immediate" crime scene(whatever area that entailed) and as mentioned go about deducing how all this happened.

Now, along those same lines they would be trying to figure what else they know and don't know about what they see before them and what the deceased's body is telling them.

They then have to tie the probability that something(s) they seek as evidence is in the barn and specifically what and where it is and why and how they developed that probability so they can put that in writing before the judge.

Then they have to present that in an ITO to a judge who then has to determine if he has jurisdiction to authorize, is satisfied legally that said crime was committed and that the evidence sought is in alignment with the crime and justifies the "State" infringing on the rights of the individual and his property.

Then LE also have to furnish all the information they know, and have found, so that the judge can view the request from every angle(good or bad).

It would not be unusual for an ITO to be numerous pages sometimes in the thousands of pages(as in computer crimes).

Sometimes judges get right on a warrant request, sometimes they don't. Regardless, for the judge to go thru numerous pages and fully understand the reason to infringe on Charter Rights takes time. Also depending on what evidence you seek, the judge severely limits the physical area you can look. If you are looking for a stolen car, for example he may say there is no way a usable full size vehicle can be placed in the barn loft so I am restricting your search to ground level only and a cursory look. Or why do you wish to look in every nook and cranny of the barn if the neighbor found the body in the incinerator 5 acres away?

On the sharing of LE info..... Judges sometimes like the warrant request to be based on independant info not tied to LE, sort of a way to keep the fox from asking for the hen house keys. Remember this is all done without the property owners input so a judge must weigh that. If the neighbor that found the remains in the incinerator, then told police he had been in the barn recently with DM and there was nothing of interest related to the burning, but LE wanted to look anyway, that info has to be included in the warrant request to the judge for him to consider also.

Sometimes search warrants are straight forward and relatively easy and quick to obtain, and then sometimes they require much work, time and effort.

I would "bet the farm" that if a bunch of cops had an initial warrant to search anywhere and everywhere in the barn, they would have jumped at the chance. I would, wouldn't you?

Disclaimer.......The discovery example of the burned remains is/was an example for demonstration purposes only and doesn't imply it as fact.

 

[swedie]

or could be hiding ... on the southeast corner of a 100 acre farm, or could be 3 fields over in Mr. Jones' tractor shed, or could be underneath that boulder on the northwest corner past the big maple ... There could be a whole big world out there, Jub

You don’t know that LE got a warrant to search “the farm”. Warrants are granted on reasonably specific INFORMATION, not hunches or maybes or cursory glances that may give butterflies in the tummy. If your spouse is reported as missing, and I told LE that the day before you reported them missing I watched you dig a hole in your backyard that was about 6' deep and fill it in with concrete, that I heard you arguing that day and thought i heard a gunshot ... LE may or may not convince a judge to give them a warrant. They might have to convince the judge that your spouse hadn't gone to Tahiti with a new love interest, that they hadn't joined the Tibetan monks, or wasn't downtown on an extended shopping expedition. THEN LE finally gets their warrant to search the BACKYARD where you dug the hole ... NOT everything you own, your basement, your computer, your attic, your car, your sock drawer.

If, while digging in your back yard, LE is standing talking with you in your garage and happen to see a shovel .. not JUST a shovel, but one with blonde hair and blood on it and your missing spouse has blonde hair, then they could probably convince a judge to grant another warrant for the rest of your house and property.

1st search by HPD > Tim’s body found, evidence found in proximity, cursory peek inside the barn hundreds of feet away shows nothing obviously amiss

2nd search by TPS > GPR search seems to have been based on specific information related to possible evidence buried on the property behind the barn (not IN the barn). Another cursory peek inside the barn shows nothing obviously amiss

3rd search by TPS > based on “new information” seems to relate to the barn itself, thus the barn was tossed

LE is limited by the Charter of Rights and the laws of search and seizure … our imaginations aren’t.

:goodpost: SB. BTW you have many.

Bottom line is LE must be VERY careful were they tread. One wrong move could blow substantial and important evidence gathered. Just as in the MR case. Laptop and computer hard drive search results. Evidence denied but the had very telling information on his laptop as to the sick sexual frame of mind he has. Judge claimed LE didn't have the proper search warrant for laptop and it was against MR's rights to reveal the evidence found on his laptop. MOO.

Some women Rafferty dated reported his "disconcerting" behaviour toward their children, the Crown said. In January 2009 a woman Rafferty met online alleged in a police report that he drugged, choked and raped her, but he was not charged.

An exhaustive search of Rafferty's laptop and the hard drive of an old computer from several years prior to Tori's death suggests wide sexual interests, from "golden showers," a sex act involving urination, to necrophilia and epilepsy *advertiser censored*.

But the computer evidence suggests a prevailing sexual interest in children. Police found Rafferty had downloaded or viewed a substantial amount of child *advertiser censored* on his computers, and the vast majority of the filenames suggest a focus on incest. Search queries such as "real underage rape pictures" and "nude preteen" were entered on his computer in the weeks leading up to Tori's murder.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/05/13/rafferty-mcclintic-murder-stafford_n_1512504.html

 

[Juballee]

Don't know if you are in Canada or the US, but are you gleaning this from tv or do you have specific examples of these types of searches in the US?

While there may be some differences wrt Canadian vs US warrants, here's the basic wiki info as it relates to the US:



from:
Search warrant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Doesn't sound that different from Canadian law, but regardless, this is a Canadian case and it has been stressed numerous times how warrants are authorized in this country.

:deadhorse:

The point is that it would not have been unreasonable to request an extra warrant, If that was what was needed for the search to be done properly the first or second times. A tiny bit of due process would not have brought the whole thing to a halt, and if they had to, they could have secured the building until a warrant was available, even if it was just with crime scene tape to keep trespassers out. But that is assuming that the original warrant to search for TB didn't include the only building on the property.

We're not talking about a neighbour's property, and I think that when they searched the other properties owned by DM, that they did not leave such gapping holes of non-searched areas. I doubt that they searched the house in Etobicoke but not the garage, or that they searched the hanger, but only the CEO's office.

Also, in regards to another post on this subject, I would think that if my wife was missing and someone heard a gun shot and saw digging, that they would not only check the back yard, but also look in the home for the gun and the garage for the spade; anything less would be gross incompetence, in my opinion.

And Eldee, thank you for showing me that I am not the only one who thinks it is baffling when it seems so obvious to us. What if they had actually found LB's body or a clue to where she was, on the third search, can you imagine the accusations that would have flown from the public and a family that spent an extra 3 months waiting for news?

 

[swedie]

The point is that it would not have been unreasonable to request an extra warrant, If that was what was needed for the search to be done properly the first or second times. A tiny bit of due process would not have brought the whole thing to a halt, and if they had to, they could have secured the building until a warrant was available, even if it was just with crime scene tape to keep trespassers out. But that is assuming that the original warrant to search for TB didn't include the only building on the property.

We're not talking about a neighbour's property, and I think that when they searched the other properties owned by DM, that they did not leave such gapping holes of non-searched areas. I doubt that they searched the house in Etobicoke but not the garage, or that they searched the hanger, but only the CEO's office.

Also, in regards to another post on this subject, I would think that if my wife was missing and someone heard a gun shot and saw digging, that they would not only check the back yard, but also look in the home for the gun and the garage for the spade; anything less would be gross incompetence, in my opinion.

And Eldee, thank you for showing me that I am not the only one who thinks it is baffling when it seems so obvious to us. What if they had actually found LB's body or a clue to where she was, on the third search, can you imagine the accusations that would have flown from the public and a family that spent an extra 3 months waiting for news?

Do we know whether Hamilton LE may have requested a search warrant for the barn but it may have been denied by a judge or JOP. No we don't know. The first search was for TB and the search of the property is were they found him. Job done. The judge may have gave them permission to do a walk through of the barn, to look for any obvious signs related to TB such as foul play in the building (blood, weapons). If there were obvious signs TB's case was related to the barn, then the judge would have allowed a more thorough search of the barn. IIRC all of these cases have budgets to conform with and unnecessary searches and task force costs huge dollars.

I do not see anyone wanting to trespass upon a potential crime scene but that is JMHO, of course unless someone knows/knew there is/was evidence in there and would like to aid the accused in removal of evidence: A lawyer, his assistances, family or friends...maybe? Just thinking out loud here. It would be impossible for anyone not knowing or having access to both the accused and victims DNA/blood or possessions to plant evidence. Say for someone to plant a knife; what would that prove unless it had a victims blood on it? The only people I would assume who may want to trespass may be younger people looking for some "thrill" of visiting a crime scene. And even that is a bit of a stretch of the imagination. I would imagine, if anyone was caught, charges could be filed and especially caught trying to remove or plant evidence; serious charges I am sure. ALL :moo:

 

[Juballee]

Do we know whether Hamilton LE may have requested a search warrant for the barn but it may have been denied by a judge or JOP. No we don't know. The first search was for TB and the search of the property is were they found him. Job done. The judge may have gave them permission to do a walk through of the barn, to look for any obvious signs related to TB such as foul play in the building (blood, weapons). If there were obvious signs TB's case was related to the barn, then the judge would have allowed a more thorough search of the barn. IIRC all of these cases have budgets to conform with and unnecessary searches and task force costs huge dollars.

I do not see anyone wanting to trespass upon a potential crime scene but that is JMHO, of course unless someone knows/knew there is/was evidence in there and would like to aid the accused in removal of evidence: A lawyer, his assistances, family or friends...maybe? Just thinking out loud here. It would be impossible for anyone not knowing or having access to both the accused and victims DNA/blood or possessions to plant evidence. Say for someone to plant a knife; what would that prove unless it had a victims blood on it? The only people I would assume who may want to trespass may be younger people looking for some "thrill" of visiting a crime scene. And even that is a bit of a stretch of the imagination. I would imagine, if anyone was caught, charges could be filed and especially caught trying to remove or plant evidence; serious charges I am sure. ALL :moo:

<modsnip>
When it was unprotected for all that amount of time, I agree, anyone could have gone to remove or add evidence at any time during the last 3 months or so. And if the only people who could add DNA evidence are the people that have it, like LE, that again makes it look almost suspicious that LE didn't wonder what was in the barn on the first 2 searches. But I am not suggesting that, just following the logic you suggested to its natural conclusion.

So what it really comes down to, in my opinion, is that the people who think he is guilty will claim that if the police didn't find any evidence, that it is because his supporters removed it in those 3 months, and if they do find something, his lawyer is going to point out that anyone could have added it in those 3 months. It seems kind of like a controversial search when you think about it like that, despite having all the right warrants. And if we are going to suggest that the first two searches were hampered from at least kicking aside some hay over budget concerns, how do we explain the amount of money spent on the third search?

 

[Snoofo]

<modsnip>

When it was unprotected for all that amount of time, I agree, anyone could have gone to remove or add evidence at any time during the last 3 months or so. And if the only people who could add DNA evidence are the people that have it, like LE, that again makes it look almost suspicious that LE didn't wonder what was in the barn on the first 2 searches. But I am not suggesting that, just following the logic you suggested to its natural conclusion.

So what it really comes down to, in my opinion, is that the people who think he is guilty will claim that if the police didn't find any evidence, that it is because his supporters removed it in those 3 months, and if they do find something, his lawyer is going to point out that anyone could have added it in those 3 months. It seems kind of like a controversial search when you think about it like that, despite having all the right warrants. And if we are going to suggest that the first two searches were hampered from at least kicking aside some hay over budget concerns, how do we explain the amount of money spent on the third search?

Well said.
:cheers:

 

[Eldee]

In my opinion, if they were to have found evidence relating to the murder of TB in the barn when they were conducting the thorough search for the third time, it would, I think be inadmissible. As a defense attorney, I would suggest that since the crime scene had not been secured for three months anyone could have had access to the barn at any time. I don't think that would be the case if they had found any evidence of LB though. It would then appear to me, as said by a poster above, that they must have had all the evidence they needed to convict on the TB murder without having to have had to search the barn for more at that time. It must mean they have the murder weapon, the seats from the truck, the fingerprints etc... LE must have an airtight case on this murder.
Let's hope.

 

[Alethea Dice]

<modsnip>

I personally don't understand why people would leave personal messages, condolences and flowers at the farm, where the family would not see them. In my world, condolences are usually given to the family and friends of the deceased, not left where the deceased's body was found. JMO

 

[Arnie M]

<SNIP>
I personally don't understand why people would leave personal messages, condolences and flowers at the farm, where the family would not see them. In my world, condolences are usually given to the family and friends of the deceased, not left where the deceased's body was found. JMO

I think it is much the same as when people place wreaths or memorial flowers beside roads where loved ones were killed , or toss wreaths into the ocean where a ship sank , or toss flowers where an airplane went into the sea.

 

[Sillybilly]

I think it is much the same as when people place wreaths or memorial flowers beside roads where loved ones were killed , or toss wreaths into the ocean where a ship sank , or toss flowers where an airplane went into the sea.

That's the way I view it also ... intended as a tribute to the deceased that acknowledges their existence and perhaps an attempt to add a touch of tenderness and dignity to their last moments on earth (or as close as one could come to the location in Tim's case).

Of course condolences by way of flowers and donations etc to the family are always in order, but those are gestures that acknowledge the pain and loss of the loved ones who remain. Certainly nothing wrong with acknowledging the deceased in a separate and meaningful gesture.

A poignant visual that I will never forget was the salute by LE as young Victoria Stafford's body was brought out from the field in a hearse. That image will stay with me forever.

 

[Archangel7]

<mod snip> people feel the need to show sympathies in that way and possibly are not comfortable with imposing on SB and family. However they still wish to show human empathy by leaving items near where someone left this earth violently.

I continue to see flowers on highway right of ways where I worked violent and deadly MVAs. I think it is an honorable gesture by people touched by a tragedy affecting another person.

 

[Alethea Dice]

I can certainly understand the memorials and/or tributes. What I don't understand is the "personal messages and condolences". Those, I feel, should be directed to the family, and can be without imposing on them. Many left flowers at the end of TB's driveway and many sent cards and notes, which I'm sure were very much appreciated.

JMO

 

[swedie]

oke: :slap: hdear: :rockon:


ANYHOW,
October 22nd MAY BE pretrial hearing. Here's hoping.
We need justice for Tim.

Tim Bosma's accused killers will be back in court on Oct. 22 as a pretrial hearing is set to get underway on that date. The pretrial is a hearing to try to resolve legal issues ahead of time and to map out a plan for the trial.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...killers-to-have-pretrial-in-october-1.1700886

 

[hopingforjustice]

I personally don't understand why people would leave personal messages, condolences and flowers at the farm, where the family would not see them. In my world, condolences are usually given to the family and friends of the deceased, not left where the deceased's body was found. JMO

Call me crazy!.. I was one of those that left flowers. I drive that road twice every day. I could not help but be reminded of the horror involved in this case no matter who is responsible every single day whether I signed on here or the news or not. It was my way of showing respect to Tim.

I also took coffee to the officers who stood guard on the property a couple times as my show of support to them.

 

[swedie]

<modsnip>

Call me crazy!.. I was one of those that left flowers. I drive that road twice every day. I could not help but be reminded of the horror involved in this case no matter who is responsible every single day whether I signed on here or the news or not. It was my way of showing respect to Tim.

I also took coffee to the officers who stood guard on the property a couple times as my show of support to them.

I see you were quoting Alethea Dice's post but it didn't come out that way just to let you know. I put AD's post in bold to clarify. To quote someone's post, just click on the QUOTE button at the bottom right. HTH Hoping.

I for one wouldn't consider you crazy. I would say you were paying your heartfelt respects to a murdered man whose remains were found on accused farm. Very thoughtful of you Hoping and I'm sure the officers were very grateful for your thoughtfulness in bringing them coffee. Bless you. :tyou:

Seeing as you travel that road often, have you ever seen any sort of security at DM's property? Or do you ever see anyone pulled over in their vehicle to take a look around? TIA.

 

[hopingforjustice]

Call me crazy!.. I was one of those that left flowers. I drive that road twice every day. I could not help but be reminded of the horror involved in this case no matter who is responsible every single day whether I signed on here or the news or not. It was my way of showing respect to Tim.

I also took coffee to the officers who stood guard on the property a couple times as my show of support to them.

<modsnip>

I for one wouldn't consider you crazy. I would say you were paying your heartfelt respects to a murdered man whose remains were found on accused farm. Very thoughtful of you Hoping and I'm sure the officers were very grateful for your thoughtfulness in bringing them coffee. Bless you. :tyou:

Seeing as you travel that road often, have you ever seen any sort of security at DM's property? Or do you ever see anyone pulled over in their vehicle to take a look around? TIA.

Thank You! and I am sorry that I don't know how to "quote" properly...

I am sorry to say that the security has been slim to none on that property. I remember seeing a cop on the Friday on my way home from work before this all unfolded parked in the driveway across the street (the airstrip) and thought that was odd. Then on Monday when I went to work (6 am) there was still a cop there and then I knew something was amiss. Then the news broke. Once that initial "finding" was over, the patrol was there for a few days and then nothing. then the second search...same thing...patrol for a few days after then nothing. Some of you will remember that I posted that at one point a "cop like" vehicle cut me off coming off the property but I can't say one way or another if it was or not. Then with this last search...I didn't see anything on my way to work that morning, and was shocked when I saw on twitter they were back on the property...The farm was guarded nightly during that whole week..but as soon as they called off the search on Friday night there was no further maintenance. I did not go that way on the Saturday, but did go on the Sunday morning about 11 am and no sign of anyone. I was a little shocked.

Hope this helps..

 

[Alethea Dice]

Call me crazy!.. I was one of those that left flowers. I drive that road twice every day. I could not help but be reminded of the horror involved in this case no matter who is responsible every single day whether I signed on here or the news or not. It was my way of showing respect to Tim.

I also took coffee to the officers who stood guard on the property a couple times as my show of support to them.

I don't think you're crazy at all. That was a very nice gesture you made. Did you also leave a message of condolence? I think I explained myself quite clearly in my previous [ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9870537&postcount=533"]post[/ame].

HTH

 

[hopingforjustice]

Oh..sorry...and in answer to the question of "spectators"...there really have not been that many that I have noticed...any that I have seen have been quick and not out of cars..kinda just looking..

 

[Alethea Dice]

I am sorry to say that the security has been slim to none on that property. I remember seeing a cop on the Friday on my way home from work before this all unfolded parked in the driveway across the street (the airstrip) and thought that was odd. Then on Monday when I went to work (6 am) there was still a cop there and then I knew something was amiss. Then the news broke. Once that initial "finding" was over, the patrol was there for a few days and then nothing. then the second search...same thing...patrol for a few days after then nothing. Some of you will remember that I posted that at one point a "cop like" vehicle cut me off coming off the property but I can't say one way or another if it was or not. Then with this last search...I didn't see anything on my way to work that morning, and was shocked when I saw on twitter they were back on the property...The farm was guarded nightly during that whole week..but as soon as they called off the search on Friday night there was no further maintenance. I did not go that way on the Saturday, but did go on the Sunday morning about 11 am and no sign of anyone. I was a little shocked.

Hope this helps..

Thank you for confirming that. I do remember your earlier discussion about the lack of LE presence in your travels.

 

[hopingforjustice]

I can certainly understand the memorials and/or tributes. What I don't understand is the "personal messages and condolences". Those, I feel, should be directed to the family, and can be without imposing on them. Many left flowers at the end of TB's driveway and many sent cards and notes, which I'm sure were very much appreciated.

JMO

In answer to your question..no I did not leave a personal message. I don't have a personal message to the family, I didn't know them personally. Was just my way of saying that he was in my thoughts..