General Discussion and Theories #3

[Sillybilly]

I'm just attaching a blown up image of the item. I'm not quite sure what it is-perhaps someone will recognize it.

Might be just an old wash stand for laundry tubs ... not too nefarious, LOL.

We had one in the basement, and it was from the old days when you would put laundry tubs on them to do the wash (before washing machines). Some of them even had a wringer in the middle (high tech it was ):

https://www.google.ca/search?site=i...mY#q=antique+wash+stand+laundry+tubs&tbm=isch

PS: I just showed that one pic with the wringer to my grandson, and his response was "My God ... looks like a torture machine". I'm sure our ancestors felt that too.

 

[bessie]

I'm just attaching a blown up image of the item. I'm not quite sure what it is-perhaps someone will recognize it.

Arnie will know.

 

[bessie]

Might be just an old wash stand for laundry tubs ... not too nefarious, LOL.

We had one in the basement, and it was from the old days when you would put laundry tubs on them to do the wash (before washing machines). Some of them even had a wringer in the middle (high tech it was ):

https://www.google.ca/search?site=i...mY#q=antique+wash+stand+laundry+tubs&tbm=isch

PS: I just showed that one pic with the wringer to my grandson, and his response was "My God ... looks like a torture machine". I'm sure our ancestors felt that too.

:lol:

 

[Alethea Dice]

First search did not require attention to barrels and straw
Second search required attention to barrels and straw

This is not complicated.

rsbm

You're right, it's not complicated at all. When you're looking for a missing person, why would you ever search the hay mow? Especially if you think the missing person has just run away, or you don't think she's important enough to look for. :facepalm:

JMO

 

[Arnie M]

Does anyone know what that piece of equipment is seen in the video at 1:03 in the loft of the barn? I though it might be an old collapsible work horse or table some carpenters use to set up tools such as saws. Could this have been what was brought out of the barn wrapped in plastic? In later pictures this equipment is no longer seen in the loft. Maybe LE just moved it to another location within the loft. Hmmm JMO.

Picture of equipment with investigator who has a camera around his neck.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=dell...yRecord%2Fstatus%2F377141878337970176;599;399

http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/more-items-removed-as-police-continue-to-search-millard-barn-1.1448622

Work horse table example image
https://www.google.ca/search?q=work...%2F11700%2Fi.html%3F_kw%3Dhorse%2Bsaw;192;225

When I saw it last week it looked familiar but I cannot remember exactly what it is for ..... typical old wooden farm equipment ... full of cobwebs , bird poop and not likely a murder weapon .... I bet there are all kinds of old things in the barn we cannot see .... they should have an antique auction

The old piece of equipment has curved wood on it so probably was a cradle for holding posts or firewood somewhat similar to the old woodsaw pictured below.

And of course .... never one to leave out killer barrels .... we must include a picture of an old wooden barrel mover with curved handles and base

 

[Sillybilly]

rsbm

You're right, it's not complicated at all. When you're looking for a missing person, why would you ever search the hay mow? Especially if you think the missing person has just run away, or you don't think she's important enough to look for. :facepalm:

JMO

<bbm>

That may have been the mindset in 2012, but is not the same mindset that was in effect after DM was arrested for Tim Bosma's murder, or the mindset that existed at the time search warrants were applied for and authorized post May 6 2013.

IMO, it all comes down to what information became available in May 2013 to even consider a search, what was able to be presented by way of application to a judge to substantiate search warrants, and what was ultimately authorized in those warrants.

 

[Sillybilly]

When I saw it last week it looked familiar but I cannot remember exactly what it is for ..... typical old wooden farm equipment ... full of cobwebs , bird poop and not likely a murder weapon .... I bet there are all kinds of old things in the barn we cannot see .... they should have an antique auction

The old piece of equipment has curved wood on it so probably was a cradle for holding posts or firewood somewhat similar to the old woodsaw pictured below.

And of course .... never one to leave out killer barrels .... we must include a picture of an old wooden barrel mover with curved handles and base

Don't know for sure, but I flipped the image sideways, and am thinking it might be a hayloft ladder.

 

[bessie]

I think this quote from Lerner reported by CBC on May 19 is telling:

"Once [Millard's] name got out there in connection with this Bosma case, they assigned a couple of new detectives to it," he said. "They basically started the case from scratch."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...n-s-parents-unfazed-by-millard-link-1.1354137

So they returned to step one: piecing together LB's lifestyle, her habits, routines; retracing her footsteps; and locating and interviewing her contacts. Normal procedure, as it should be, since no investigation had proceeded in earnest prior to DM's arrest. It would be imprudent, illegal even, and detrimental to the investigation (and potential prosecution) to make a bounding leap from "step one" to "We need a SW because we think DM is hiding LB's body inside some barrels seen in the barn!"

I would have loved to be a fly on the wall went that coversation went down.

JMHO

 

[Arnie M]

None of TB's family or freinds would have any "inside info" on DM , and those who did know DM probably just remained silent , minded their own business , and just watched from the sidelines

But with LB in the spotlight now , and her known association with DM , I bet plenty of youth within DM's circle are more than willing to come forward with "inside info" on DM .

Very few people would implicate themselves by stepping forward saying ... I did xxxx and xxxx and xxxx with DM ....... but with potential murder of LB on the plate , those youth may be more willing to come forward with info to help LE ..... I think in such situations LE overlook "small indiscretions" committed by the volunteering witness ..... If Archangel7 drops by he could maybe give us more insight.

Anyone else figure right now LE have lots of people coming forward ? I do.

 

[Alethea Dice]

<bbm>

That may have been the mindset in 2012, but is not the same mindset that was in effect after DM was arrested for Tim Bosma's murder, or the mindset that existed at the time search warrants were applied for and authorized post May 6 2013.

IMO, it all comes down to what information became available in May 2013 to even consider a search, what was able to be presented by way of application to a judge to substantiate search warrants, and what was ultimately authorized in those warrants.

I know, SB, I was being sarcastic. It just seems so sad to me that she's been missing this long and, once the connection was made and the farm found, that the warrant wouldn't have included looking through all that hay. The barrels mean nothing to me. I never thought they had a connection to anything. And I realize they could have been restricted by the information they received. But if they had some information that she may be at the farm, all that hay in a dilapidated barn would seem like a potentially good hiding spot.

JMO

 

[Archangel7]

I'm just attaching a blown up image of the item. I'm not quite sure what it is-perhaps someone will recognize it.

Did the farmer have dairy goats? Short as it looks, it looks similar to a milk stand.

 

[Juballee]

They did search the mounds of straw
Even going so far as to remove it from the barn

They did search the barrels
Even going so far as to remove them & check the contents

First search did not require attention to barrels and straw
Second search required attention to barrels and straw

This is not complicated.

To me it is not complicated either, just baffling that it was done in the order suggested here. To me, common sense would dictate that the first search team (looking for the body of TB) waited to get a warrant to search the farm, and then once they got it, they should have searched all of it, or at least the one building on it.

It baffles me to think that numerous trained professionals, once they found TB's body might have dusted off their hands and said, 'Yup, we're all done here', and not continued to search for, say a murder weapon, or a place where evidence might have been tracked or hidden. It baffles me that at least one trained professional must have taken a look into at least the doorway of the barn and thought 'Nothing could be hidden here under all that hay in a murder investigation'. And they all walked away. And left it without so much as a crime scene tape to keep trespassers out if they intended to go back to it at some future date.

It baffles me to think that when it was announced that a second search (the first one for LB at that location)was being conducted at the same farm, that one professional didn't call up another professional and say something like, 'If you're looking for a body from a year ago, you might also want to look under some of that hay in the barn'. It baffles me that no one on that second search team also thought, 'I wonder if we should check out that abandoned looking barn while we're here searching for a body, I wonder if we can get a warrant for that?'

Lastly, it baffles me that when they did decide to search the barn on the third search, that they seemed to go into overkill, in my opinion. I agree with you that the barrels are likely just a guy thing, aviation or not, I've never met a guy who could resist a barrel or an old army footlocker. Personally, I don't think it's complicated, but I think that the first two searches did require them to look into the contents of the only building on the site with more than a cursory glance, and I think that their inability to do that is baffling, because even a cursory glance would tell them that any evidence could be hiding under all that hay, or that there could be further rooms to look into with who knows what in them.

 

[Archangel7]

None of TB's family or freinds would have any "inside info" on DM , and those who did know DM probably just remained silent , minded their own business , and just watched from the sidelines

But with LB in the spotlight now , and her known association with DM , I bet plenty of youth within DM's circle are more than willing to come forward with "inside info" on DM .

Very few people would implicate themselves by stepping forward saying ... I did xxxx and xxxx and xxxx with DM ....... but with potential murder of LB on the plate , those youth may be more willing to come forward with info to help LE ..... I think in such situations LE overlook "small indiscretions" committed by the volunteering witness ..... If Archangel7 drops by he could maybe give us more insight.

Anyone else figure right now LE have lots of people coming forward ? I do.

Yes Arnie, I too believe that there is cooperation at this point for 3 reasons.

1. The investigation has progressed enough to have the "dirt" on some.

2. Some have come forward trying to get ahead of #1

3. Some have realized the reality in the same old tired story about the pet tiger.....cool, fun, neat to be around, a little risky, then one day the tiger turns on someone, then friends, neighbors, relatives, etc., have a story to tell.

The "State" has the biggest eraser in existence and uses it as it sees necessary, sometimes to our loathing.
And I agree, the Crown can use their influence and it's one tactic that is almost indefensible against in court, if used appropriately with the correct timing.

Also many acquaintances "may" be able to rationalize, excuse, and blow off any connection with their friend(DM/MS) and TB's demise. Not so much wrt the possible murder of a female friend and a friend in dire need.

 

[Sillybilly]

because even a cursory glance would tell them that any evidence could be hiding under all that hay, or that there could be further rooms to look into with who knows what in them.

or could be hiding ... on the southeast corner of a 100 acre farm, or could be 3 fields over in Mr. Jones' tractor shed, or could be underneath that boulder on the northwest corner past the big maple ... There could be a whole big world out there, Jub

You don&#8217;t know that LE got a warrant to search &#8220;the farm&#8221;. Warrants are granted on reasonably specific INFORMATION, not hunches or maybes or cursory glances that may give butterflies in the tummy. If your spouse is reported as missing, and I told LE that the day before you reported them missing I watched you dig a hole in your backyard that was about 6' deep and fill it in with concrete, that I heard you arguing that day and thought i heard a gunshot ... LE may or may not convince a judge to give them a warrant. They might have to convince the judge that your spouse hadn't gone to Tahiti with a new love interest, that they hadn't joined the Tibetan monks, or wasn't downtown on an extended shopping expedition. THEN LE finally gets their warrant to search the BACKYARD where you dug the hole ... NOT everything you own, your basement, your computer, your attic, your car, your sock drawer.

If, while digging in your back yard, LE is standing talking with you in your garage and happen to see a shovel .. not JUST a shovel, but one with blonde hair and blood on it and your missing spouse has blonde hair, then they could probably convince a judge to grant another warrant for the rest of your house and property.

1st search by HPD > Tim&#8217;s body found, evidence found in proximity, cursory peek inside the barn hundreds of feet away shows nothing obviously amiss

2nd search by TPS > GPR search seems to have been based on specific information related to possible evidence buried on the property behind the barn (not IN the barn). Another cursory peek inside the barn shows nothing obviously amiss

3rd search by TPS > based on &#8220;new information&#8221; seems to relate to the barn itself, thus the barn was tossed

LE is limited by the Charter of Rights and the laws of search and seizure &#8230; our imaginations aren&#8217;t.

 

[Eldee]

Lastly, it baffles me that when they did decide to search the barn on the third search, that they seemed to go into overkill, in my opinion. I agree with you that the barrels are likely just a guy thing, aviation or not, I've never met a guy who could resist a barrel or an old army footlocker. Personally, I don't think it's complicated, but I think that the first two searches did require them to look into the contents of the only building on the site with more than a cursory glance, and I think that their inability to do that is baffling, because even a cursory glance would tell them that any evidence could be hiding under all that hay, or that there could be further rooms to look into with who knows what in them.
( Juballee)


Well, it baffles me too. Why do I honestly believe that had this crime happened in the U.S. that the barn would have been overturned upside down and sideways and police canine units would have been there right from the beginning as well as helicopters with thermal detection and police conducting grid searches ( as well as volunteers ) going over every square inch of that property. It baffles me as well.

 

[Sillybilly]

Well, it baffles me too. Why do I honestly believe that had this crime happened in the U.S. that the barn would have been overturned upside down and sideways and police canine units would have been there right from the beginning as well as helicopters with thermal detection and police conducting grid searches ( as well as volunteers ) going over every square inch of that property. It baffles me as well.

Don't know if you are in Canada or the US, but are you gleaning this from tv or do you have specific examples of these types of searches in the US?

While there may be some differences wrt Canadian vs US warrants, here's the basic wiki info as it relates to the US:

Under the Fourth Amendment, searches must be reasonable and specific. This means that a search warrant must be specific as to the specified object to be searched for and the place to be searched. Other items, rooms, outbuildings, persons, vehicles, etc. may require additional search warrants.

from:
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_warrant"]Search warrant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Doesn't sound that different from Canadian law, but regardless, this is a Canadian case and it has been stressed numerous times how warrants are authorized in this country.

:deadhorse:

 

[SnooperDuper]

I figure, there is so much evidence to reconcile, the only way DP can fight this case is to chisel away and get evidence thrown away, item by item...thus it is important for LE to stick to the letter of the law wrt searches. An abundance of (legal) caution was probably behind the three searches (and the fact that several jurisdictions are involved as well would have factored in too)

 

[swedie]

To me it is not complicated either, just baffling that it was done in the order suggested here. To me, common sense would dictate that the first search team (looking for the body of TB) waited to get a warrant to search the farm, and then once they got it, they should have searched all of it, or at least the one building on it.

It baffles me to think that numerous trained professionals, once they found TB's body might have dusted off their hands and said, 'Yup, we're all done here', and not continued to search for, say a murder weapon, or a place where evidence might have been tracked or hidden. It baffles me that at least one trained professional must have taken a look into at least the doorway of the barn and thought 'Nothing could be hidden here under all that hay in a murder investigation'. And they all walked away. And left it without so much as a crime scene tape to keep trespassers out if they intended to go back to it at some future date.

It baffles me to think that when it was announced that a second search (the first one for LB at that location)was being conducted at the same farm, that one professional didn't call up another professional and say something like, 'If you're looking for a body from a year ago, you might also want to look under some of that hay in the barn'. It baffles me that no one on that second search team also thought, 'I wonder if we should check out that abandoned looking barn while we're here searching for a body, I wonder if we can get a warrant for that?'

Lastly, it baffles me that when they did decide to search the barn on the third search, that they seemed to go into overkill, in my opinion. I agree with you that the barrels are likely just a guy thing, aviation or not, I've never met a guy who could resist a barrel or an old army footlocker. Personally, I don't think it's complicated, but I think that the first two searches did require them to look into the contents of the only building on the site with more than a cursory glance, and I think that their inability to do that is baffling, because even a cursory glance would tell them that any evidence could be hiding under all that hay, or that there could be further rooms to look into with who knows what in them.

BBM Do you know this to be factual? The barn was searched during that initial search. Reporters were not focused on what was going on in the barn at that time as LE were looking for TB and they found him burned beyond recognition fairly quickly on the property and not in the barn.

The fact that LE have come away from this last search with no evidence (at least that is what they are claiming at this time) tells me they must had done a thorough job on the first initial search. Amazing what LE could uncover or collect during a short amount of time. Devises used for probing in hay mound, metal detectors, samples could have been taken from many areas including many of the barrels. Seems we will have to wait until information is revealed during trial, what was gathered from the barn, or what the new information was which lead them back there.

I believe this last search was done just to say "we need to be certain no stone was left unturned", new sets of eyes so to speak. I've wondered if LE have found pictures on DM's cameras or computer of LB posing/modelling in the barn. Maybe on that first search they found an article of women's clothing and testing came back with LB's DNA on it. And of course we know different LE divisions are handling each case; LB's separate from TB's case.

As we've been notified numerous times by the MSM and LE, this is an ongoing investigation and I do not think it's odd or shows lack of thorough investigating LE were back at the farm. I won't be surprised to see them there again. Same goes with the hangar. We must remember; if the news reporters don't catch LE while doing their investigation, we the public are none the wiser.

LE don't always like the media hanging around kwim. AND they usually chose not to share with the MSM in such serious cases. Only on a need to know basis. All is just MOO.

Underlined and bold by me. Interesting the reporter knew there were "three"; not four, not two, but "three" officers and the reporter timed to "a few minutes", not a couple minutes or about an hour, less than an hours, merely a few minutes. JMHO.

Hamilton Police and Waterloo Region Police were searching 2548 Roseville Rd. in North Dumfries extensively on Tuesday. Property records confirm Millard owns the property.

Dozens of officers fanned out on foot across the fields, emerging from a treeline about 4 p.m. Three officers spent a few minutes looking through an old barn on the property that stands near Roseville Road.

http://www.guelphmercury.com/news-story/3246435-bosma-found-dead-in-waterloo-region/

Police homicide investigators are once again searching a farm owned by millionaire and accused killer Dellen Millard, the strongest indication yet that Tim Bosma might not be the only victim allegedly linked to the aviation dynasty heir.

The new search, which required a judge to agree Toronto homicide detectives had evidence to merit the probe, comes after Hamilton police concluded their search of the same property, where they say Mr. Bosma’s charred remains were found.

Police would not say if the search, focusing on an area near an old barn on Roseville Road in Ayr, Ont., west of Hamilton, is related to Laura Babcock, a Toronto woman who has been missing since June.

“The Hamilton Police Service have nothing to do with this search [by Toronto officers],” said Hamilton police Staff-Sgt. Matt Kavanagh, the lead investigator in the Bosma case.

While Crown prosecutors told him Mr. Millard’s airport hanger and his Toronto home had been released by police, he was never told if police had even released the farm before the new seizure.

AND
When Mr. Millard was arrested on May 11, it sparked new interest in both Ms. Babcock’s and Wayne Millard’s cases.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/0...micide-unit-searches-tim-bosma-suspects-farm/

AND THEN THERE IS THIS TWEET.
A police officer has been searching in the barn for 25 minutes. There are still police on horses on the property. twitter.com/justinatthespec...
JUSTIN ROBERTSON@JUSTINATTHESPEC·5 MONTHS AGO

We're up against being mindful of grieving families, suspects [named and unnamed] who don't want to talk and police who are careful with what information they release while under investigation.

http://storify.com/justinjourno/spectator-a-fistful-of-tweets-on-the-tim-bosma-inv.html

 

[swedie]

Just a random sampling of how thorough LE were in their searches. Again it is JMO but I believe we will be amazed as to what evidence LE has gathered in this investigation. JMHO.

Justin Robertson
@justinatthespec
Unconfirmed, but a resident said she saw a flatbed truck removed from Smich's home today. It was full of stones.
4 MONTHS AGO

The canine unit has arrived. twitter.com/justinatthespec...

There's roughly 15 police searching the back of Smich's house.

Neighbours are on phones watching forensics from their backyards.

Smich's mothers car is now being searched. Police have returned from the ravine.

Two big boxes have just been seized. Forensics still collecting evidence.

Police have been on scene since this morning. They have been digging, raking and cutting sections of grass.

Police are moving back and forth, collecting evidence and placing markers in several areas on the farm.

Very different search from last time I was here.Today's search looks more focused to one area of the farm around the barn. More concentrated.

The small forensics team have now moved to a different section of the farm, out of sight.

http://storify.com/justinjourno/spectator-a-fistful-of-tweets-on-the-tim-bosma-inv.html

 

[Eldee]

Don't know if you are in Canada or the US, but are you gleaning this from tv or do you have specific examples of these types of searches in the US?

While there may be some differences wrt Canadian vs US warrants, here's the basic wiki info as it relates to the US:



from:
Search warrant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Doesn't sound that different from Canadian law, but regardless, this is a Canadian case and it has been stressed numerous times how warrants are authorized in this country.

:deadhorse:

Now, here is how you search farmland. Thank you Oregon.

http://fox13now.com/2013/05/15/police-searching-oregon-farm-for-susan-cox-powell/:stormingmad: