General Gun Violence/Gun Control

[MyBelle]

Agree. I don't think the US has the legal mechanism to hold a national referendum at all.

It is a shame though, because the polls seem to indicate that the majority want assault firearms banned (from the links supplied on this thread).

The legal mechanism is with Congress as well as state elections. I'm optimistic there will eventually be a Federal Red Flag law along with other federal gun safety protections.

 

[SouthAussie]

There is an article here, relating to research that Rand Corporation (a think tank) has done - dated Jan 2023.

They had 3 areas of decisive conclusions. The other 15 gun laws they looked at they deemed to have inconclusive research.


Child access prevention laws - they found that these laws do “reduce firearm self-injuries (including suicides), firearm homicides or assault injuries and unintentional firearm injuries and deaths among youth.”

Concealed carry laws - they found sufficient evidence to say that “shall-issue concealed carry laws increase total and firearm homicides.”

Stand your ground laws - they found that these laws "encourage people to shoot rather than back away from confrontation, or flee from situations that cause them to be afraid, increase firearm homicides".



The article does mention that while Rand found Red Flad laws had inconclusive research, "there is a growing body of research suggesting that the orders contribute to harm reduction".

We already know which gun policies work​

 

[branmuffin]

I just don't get it. When 9/11 happened the whole country was galvanized to right a wrong. Every American was outraged they had been attacked. In mid-September after the attacks, nearly 80% of Americans wanted action; to strike back at who was responsible for the wholesale slaughter of innocent people, even if it meant military action. The world stood with the US in solidarity, mourning their losses. The UN provided military aid in Afghanistan to help the US route out terrorists.

But since 9/11 hundreds of children have been killed or wounded by school gun violence but no one is willing to do the one thing that could help ameliorate the situation.

This unwillingness to act when faced with the reality of the ongoing slaughter of your children is baffling to me. If parents refuse to provide lifesaving surgery for their child, the courts intervene to override the parents religious beliefs because the child's welfare is tantamount.

There will always be 'acceptable' risks concerning children and their path to adulthood but in America sending your children to school isn't one of them. Generational trauma is real, ask the indigenous who are still dealing with the fallout from the trauma family members experienced in residential schools. Are America's children going to be the next victims of generational trauma?

 

[AngTxGal]

Why not?

Currently the US seems hell bent on self destruction.
Critical thought and civil discourse seem a dead art.
My children are college age and they are not having discussions about hard topics in their university courses. That is exactly where and when kids learn who they are politically and what issues are important to them. They should be learning to be critical thinkers who can see all sides of an issue and carry on an intelligent debate. Movements of political correctness have made debate a Crime. So people are not talking.

The media boils issues down to what the lowest of Joe Public will tolerate. What is the crisis? Who is the villian? Who shall we shame and hate today?
Joe Public is a toddler without the attention span to sit and listen and learn.

Reality is not a sound bite, right and wrong, or left and right. Those of us in the middle can see that neither end of the spectrum should ever be in full power. We need compromise.
We hope for a wave of ethical leaders, who can unify, promote communication, deal in common sense, and find a common ground we can agree to support.
In the past Americans have unified against a foreign enemy. Today our enemy is another American. I fear what it may take to unify us, a tragedy that we cannot hide from but must face together.

JMO

 

[AngTxGal]

There is an article here, relating to research that Rand Corporation (a think tank) has done - dated Jan 2023.

They had 3 areas of decisive conclusions. The other 15 gun laws they looked at they deemed to have inconclusive research.


Child access prevention laws - they found that these laws do “reduce firearm self-injuries (including suicides), firearm homicides or assault injuries and unintentional firearm injuries and deaths among youth.”

Concealed carry laws - they found sufficient evidence to say that “shall-issue concealed carry laws increase total and firearm homicides.”

Stand your ground laws - they found that these laws "encourage people to shoot rather than back away from confrontation, or flee from situations that cause them to be afraid, increase firearm homicides".



The article does mention that while Rand found Red Flad laws had inconclusive research, "there is a growing body of research suggesting that the orders contribute to harm reduction".

We already know which gun policies work​

I’m not convinced it is the presence of guns that is the real issue. It seems it is the lack of gun education, gun safety, and the lack of consequences for breaking laws that could be part of the issue, and the fact that young men want to kill people and die.
If young angry boys are fixated on destruction- that is the problem. Why is that happening?
Gun laws could prevent some from getting the gun as quickly, but there are other ways to harm. What will they choose?
What is wrong with our teen boys? Why are they so angry? What is the issue there?
Is this incel thing an American issue? Are teen and 20’s men around the world suffering too?
If guns were available in other countries would their angry young men also be shooting up schools? Or not?

JMO

 

[ilovewings]

Currently the US seems hell bent on self destruction.
Critical thought and civil discourse seem a dead art.
My children are college age and they are not having discussions about hard topics in their university courses. That is exactly where and when kids learn who they are politically and what issues are important to them. They should be learning to be critical thinkers who can see all sides of an issue and carry on an intelligent debate. Movements of political correctness have made debate a Crime. So people are not talking.

The media boils issues down to what the lowest of Joe Public will tolerate. What is the crisis? Who is the villian? Who shall we shame and hate today?
Joe Public is a toddler without the attention span to sit and listen and learn.

Reality is not a sound bite, right and wrong, or left and right. Those of us in the middle can see that neither end of the spectrum should ever be in full power. We need compromise.
We hope for a wave of ethical leaders, who can unify, promote communication, deal in common sense, and find a common ground we can agree to support.
In the past Americans have unified against a foreign enemy. Today our enemy is another American. I fear what it may take to unify us, a tragedy that we cannot hide from but must face together.

JMO

I hear you loud and clear! If we had the same divided country at the time of WW11 we would have lost the war! I believe without the internet and social media we would be more of a unified country. I believe the internet and social media are a pernicious threat to the world- we have become a world of conspiracy theorists, narcissists and bullies: Rumors spread like wildfire- people commit crimes just for 15 min of fame on the internet-- There is so much more---We have become ripe for leaders who exploit us because we have become so self centered and selfish--

 

[AngTxGal]

Agree. I don't think the US has the legal mechanism to hold a national referendum at all.

It is a shame though, because the polls seem to indicate that the majority want assault firearms banned (from the links supplied on this thread).

While I agree assault rifles should be better controlled, that cat is out of the bag already. Pandora’s box has been opened and those guns are everywhere.

A mechanism to make them illegal, gather them up, and destroy them would be fine with me. I see no use for them than to harm others.
There are law abiding people who do not agree with me, and enjoy these toys for target practice. If each gun was registered and tracked by a number to an owner- those wanting to own one may take this ownership more serious.

I’m not sure guns are the basis of the school shooting issue. Guns alone cannot harm anyone.
A segment of the young male population is angry, entitled, and seeks to end their own life while killing vulnerable peers and children.
That is a mental health issue, not a gun issue.
Remove guns would stop the current trend, but if these young men intend to harm they will find another way. What the heck is going on with our young males?

JMO

 

[AngTxGal]

I just don't get it. When 9/11 happened the whole country was galvanized to right a wrong. Every American was outraged they had been attacked. In mid-September after the attacks, nearly 80% of Americans wanted action; to strike back at who was responsible for the wholesale slaughter of innocent people, even if it meant military action. The world stood with the US in solidarity, mourning their losses. The UN provided military aid in Afghanistan to help the US route out terrorists.

But since 9/11 hundreds of children have been killed or wounded by school gun violence but no one is willing to do the one thing that could help ameliorate the situation.

This unwillingness to act when faced with the reality of the ongoing slaughter of your children is baffling to me. If parents refuse to provide lifesaving surgery for their child, the courts intervene to override the parents religious beliefs because the child's welfare is tantamount.

There will always be 'acceptable' risks concerning children and their path to adulthood but in America sending your children to school isn't one of them. Generational trauma is real, ask the indigenous who are still dealing with the fallout from the trauma family members experienced in residential schools. Are America's children going to be the next victims of generational trauma?

Have you seen the line of backpacks with bullet proof material? These are meant for a child to hide behind during a school shooting? Search bullet proof backpacks.
A Kevlar pad is also sold to place inside backpacks- they range from $100-600.
Seeing these bulletproof backpacks covered in unicorns modeled by a 5 yr old girl should make anyone feel nauseated. Understand- someone has to teach her when and how to use it!

We are breaking records each year with school shootings and numbers of children killed or injured from gun violence. More and more kids and teachers are exposed to such shootings- and live to tell. Still these kids and teachers will walk into schools for many more years.
At some point teachers across the nation should stand up and say NO!
Teachers are sitting ducks, they cannot protect themselves, and yet they are also charged with calming and protecting a room full of 20+ children.

1- Take the assault guns and destroy them, stop them being made, stop their sales.
2- Develop better plans for schools to prevent and deal with school shootings- maybe the kids should not duck and cover inside the school building. Maybe they get them out!
3- Tackle the issue of angry young men in American. Why do they want to kill and die?

JMO

 

[SouthAussie]

I’m not convinced it is the presence of guns that is the real issue. It seems it is the lack of gun education, gun safety, and the lack of consequences for breaking laws that could be part of the issue, and the fact that young men want to kill people and die.
If young angry boys are fixated on destruction- that is the problem. Why is that happening?
Gun laws could prevent some from getting the gun as quickly, but there are other ways to harm. What will they choose?
What is wrong with our teen boys? Why are they so angry? What is the issue there?
Is this incel thing an American issue? Are teen and 20’s men around the world suffering too?
If guns were available in other countries would their angry young men also be shooting up schools? Or not?

JMO

I think it's the presence of guns.

Our kids get angry too. They do foolish things like killing a person with a One Punch King Hit (which we have relabelled a Cowards Punch). They sometimes knife someone. They sometimes gang up and beat the crapola out of a victim viciously.

It is only rarely that a kid will have access to a firearm because they just aren't prevalent here. If they did, we might see much more harm. They don't have the capacity to easily cause harm to many before they are stopped.

But we also don't have much division in the country. Things are far more settled. Does that help to settle the youth?

And the consequences. Because they can't turn a gun on themselves, after they have harmed someone, or commit suicide by police (or other) fire. They have to face the consequences.


I think those Child Access Prevention laws sound useful. The ones that were mentioned in the Rand Corporation study.
.

 

[Laughing]

Shooting is a sport in the Olympics and many universities have rifle teams. I have a friend whose daughter is on one of those teams- on scholarship.

AR-15’s are not used in any competitive shooting sports At any prize winning level.

Our gun laws should be based on common sense- IMO they currently are not.

JMO

bbm rsbm

Indeed, competitors might select another brand, but 3 Gun includes MSR:

The Exciting Sport of 3-Gun Shooting

One of the fastest growing shooting sports in the country right now is the action-packed multi-gun competition commonly known as "3-gun."

www.nssf.org

Explain how additional laws will help, when the shooters in Sacramento, Illinois, and New York all had illegally held firearms?

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I just don't get it. When 9/11 happened the whole country was galvanized to right a wrong. Every American was outraged they had been attacked. In mid-September after the attacks, nearly 80% of Americans wanted action; to strike back at who was responsible for the wholesale slaughter of innocent people, even if it meant military action. The world stood with the US in solidarity, mourning their losses. The UN provided military aid in Afghanistan to help the US route out terrorists.

But since 9/11 hundreds of children have been killed or wounded by school gun violence but no one is willing to do the one thing that could help ameliorate the situation.

This unwillingness to act when faced with the reality of the ongoing slaughter of your children is baffling to me. If parents refuse to provide lifesaving surgery for their child, the courts intervene to override the parents religious beliefs because the child's welfare is tantamount.

There will always be 'acceptable' risks concerning children and their path to adulthood but in America sending your children to school isn't one of them. Generational trauma is real, ask the indigenous who are still dealing with the fallout from the trauma family members experienced in residential schools. Are America's children going to be the next victims of generational trauma?

Sandy Hook, Uvalde, Las Vegas etc. somehow didn’t result in national change.

My fear is that it will take something worse before there’s a united movement.

In Nova Scotia it was an 18 hour ordeal and 22 deaths. That was the breaking point.

 

[Sillybilly]

Gun Violence Archive - Mass Shootings in 2023

7 pages long, 162 mass shootings so far this year

Horrific !!

 

[branmuffin]

Have you seen the line of backpacks with bullet proof material? These are meant for a child to hide behind during a school shooting? Search bullet proof backpacks.
A Kevlar pad is also sold to place inside backpacks- they range from $100-600.
Seeing these bulletproof backpacks covered in unicorns modeled by a 5 yr old girl should make anyone feel nauseated. Understand- someone has to teach her when and how to use it!

We are breaking records each year with school shootings and numbers of children killed or injured from gun violence. More and more kids and teachers are exposed to such shootings- and live to tell. Still these kids and teachers will walk into schools for many more years.
At some point teachers across the nation should stand up and say NO!
Teachers are sitting ducks, they cannot protect themselves, and yet they are also charged with calming and protecting a room full of 20+ children.

1- Take the assault guns and destroy them, stop them being made, stop their sales.
2- Develop better plans for schools to prevent and deal with school shootings- maybe the kids should not duck and cover inside the school building. Maybe they get them out!
3- Tackle the issue of angry young men in American. Why do they want to kill and die?

JMO

It sickens me, the idea that little kids have to wear backpacks that include Kevlar shields. And for me there is a whiff of applying personal responsibility to a six year old to be responsible for their own safety.

There is a disconnect between the slaughter of children and the adults that have a responsibility to protect them. I believe it's rooted in the resurgence of Christian evangelism. So many politicians in the US want to pass laws to hinder women's freedom under the guise of following the patriarchal hierarchy. It's like a Venn diagram where the overlapping parts of politics, faith, and the hobbling of women's freedom is related to men trying to get back to the Bible's interpretation of what a women's role in life is. In doing so, the fate of these dead children can be related to the breakdown of the familial unit. So all these young men who have masculinity issues, low self esteem, and a preoccupation with weaponry and violence can be traced back to a breakdown in traditional family roles.

Just think, if there were no latch key kids making their own breakfasts, coming home from school to an empty house but one where the mother was available 24/7 to tend to their children's needs there would be no disgruntled boys with self esteem issues, there wouldn't be boys who hid long guns and explosives under their beds before they slaughtered their school mates.

I think that's why there is an impasse, when it comes to legislation to ban or regulate these weapons. It's a perceived breakdown of traditional gender roles that lead to young men to kill with abandon.

I'm pretty irreligious as you can imagine but I find the second link to be a valuable source of information regarding the issue of gender roles from the perspective of a devout Christian woman.

Characteristics Shared by the Young Men Committing Mass Shootings

Mass shootings are on the rise, and the attacks are proving increasingly deadly. What we can learn from previous mass shooters to prevent future mass shootings.

www.psychologytoday.com

https://www.mybibleteacher.net/uploads/1/2/4/6/124618875/the_making_of_biblical_womanhood_by_beth_allison_barr__z-lib.org_.epub.pdf

Patriarchy, White Supremacy, And Gun Violence In The U.S.

As of April 22nd, 2021, the Gun Violence Archive has recorded 159 incidents of mass shootings in the United States this year alone. That number is nearly double what was reported on the same day la…

theowp.org

 

[AngTxGal]

It sickens me, the idea that little kids have to wear backpacks that include Kevlar shields. And for me there is a whiff of applying personal responsibility to a six year old to be responsible for their own safety.

There is a disconnect between the slaughter of children and the adults that have a responsibility to protect them. I believe it's rooted in the resurgence of Christian evangelism. So many politicians in the US want to pass laws to hinder women's freedom under the guise of following the patriarchal hierarchy. It's like a Venn diagram where the overlapping parts of politics, faith, and the hobbling of women's freedom is related to men trying to get back to the Bible's interpretation of what a women's role in life is. In doing so, the fate of these dead children can be related to the breakdown of the familial unit. So all these young men who have masculinity issues, low self esteem, and a preoccupation with weaponry and violence can be traced back to a breakdown in traditional family roles.

Just think, if there were no latch key kids making their own breakfasts, coming home from school to an empty house but one where the mother was available 24/7 to tend to their children's needs there would be no disgruntled boys with self esteem issues, there wouldn't be boys who hid long guns and explosives under their beds before they slaughtered their school mates.

I think that's why there is an impasse, when it comes to legislation to ban or regulate these weapons. It's a perceived breakdown of traditional gender roles that lead to young men to kill with abandon.

I'm pretty irreligious as you can imagine but I find the second link to be a valuable source of information regarding the issue of gender roles from the perspective of a devout Christian woman.

Characteristics Shared by the Young Men Committing Mass Shootings

Mass shootings are on the rise, and the attacks are proving increasingly deadly. What we can learn from previous mass shooters to prevent future mass shootings.

www.psychologytoday.com

https://www.mybibleteacher.net/uploads/1/2/4/6/124618875/the_making_of_biblical_womanhood_by_beth_allison_barr__z-lib.org_.epub.pdf

Patriarchy, White Supremacy, And Gun Violence In The U.S.

As of April 22nd, 2021, the Gun Violence Archive has recorded 159 incidents of mass shootings in the United States this year alone. That number is nearly double what was reported on the same day la…

theowp.org

Interesting perspective, as I come from an evangelical upbringing I have a unique perspective. I’ll have to take a look.
What I do know is this…Evangelical religious groups are fundamentalists by definition.
This means they seek to retain and return families to a prior time in history, where their interpretation of the Bible was the norm.
Evangelicals in Texas traditionally have issues with these topics/ beliefs, in my experience.
- modern science of any kind as applied to their own life
- science teachers and schools who teach modern science
- empowering women to be educated, and financially independent
- divorce, interracial marriage, same sex marriage

What happened in Texas was a huge split in Baptists. Some churches remained Baptists, who follow the Southern Baptist Convention of churches. Other churches became independent and go by various names usually called Bible churches.

The empowering of women is a problem, as traditions call for women to be wives and mothers and men to be the bread winners.
Often men cannot make what is needed to support the family on their own, especially when the economy sux as it has for some time.
So, women go to work. They seek a split in chores, they need help, and traditional men don‘t see their job to include raising kids and house chores.

Traditional roles and power do not work when women become educated and earn as much as their spouse, or more than their spouse. Some men jump in and redefine their family differently, many do not. They are stuck in the 1950’s.

JMO

 

[branmuffin]

Interesting perspective, as I come from an evangelical upbringing I have a unique perspective. I’ll have to take a look.
What I do know is this…Evangelical religious groups are fundamentalists by definition.
This means they seek to retain and return families to a prior time in history, where their interpretation of the Bible was the norm.
Evangelicals in Texas traditionally have issues with these topics/ beliefs, in my experience.
- modern science of any kind as applied to their own life
- science teachers and schools who teach modern science
- empowering women to be educated, and financially independent
- divorce, interracial marriage, same sex marriage

What happened in Texas was a huge split in Baptists. Some churches remained Baptists, who follow the Southern Baptist Convention of churches. Other churches became independent and go by various names usually called Bible churches.

The empowering of women is a problem, as traditions call for women to be wives and mothers and men to be the bread winners.
Often men cannot make what is needed to support the family on their own, especially when the economy sux as it has for some time.
So, women go to work. They seek a split in chores, they need help, and traditional men don‘t see their job to include raising kids and house chores.

Traditional roles and power do not work when women become educated and earn as much as their spouse, or more than their spouse. Some men jump in and redefine their family differently, many do not. They are stuck in the 1950’s.

JMO

I completely agree with you. I hope readers don't assume I condone the idea of getting back to the June Cleaver era. I find it appalling that women in the 21st century are having their rights eroded by traditional men who prefer they stay home and be the dutiful wife and mother.

I really do believe that there is a correlation between young men who see toxic masculinity and the subjugation of women as a match made in heaven. And it is being subliminally encouraged by lawmakers' attempts to further erode woman's rights by turning back the clock.

When I think of all the active shooters in the last 20 years only 25 percent have been diagnosed with legitimate mental health issues like James Holmes, in the Aurora theatre shootings.

A Study of Pre-Attack Behaviors of Active Shooters in the United States Between 2000 and 2013 | Federal Bureau of Investigation

This report, covering active shooter incidents in the United States between 2000 and 2013, examines specific behaviors that may precede an attack and that might be useful in identifying, assessing, and managing those who may be on a pathway to violence.

www.fbi.gov

 

[SouthAussie]

Gun Violence Archive - Mass Shootings in 2023

7 pages long, 162 mass shootings so far this year

Horrific !!

And now they are happening more than once per day.

The same day that the teens were killed and injured at the sweet 16 birthday party in Alabama, a mass shooting happened in Kentucky.

The escalation is frightening. Where does it end?

This article states that the average for 2023 (so far) is 1.5 mass shooting incidents every day.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/04/16/us/dadeville-alabama-mass-shooting/index.html

 

[Lexiintoronto]

bbm rsbm

Indeed, competitors might select another brand, but 3 Gun includes MSR:

The Exciting Sport of 3-Gun Shooting

One of the fastest growing shooting sports in the country right now is the action-packed multi-gun competition commonly known as "3-gun."

www.nssf.org

Explain how additional laws will help, when the shooters in Sacramento, Illinois, and New York all had illegally held firearms?

We had the same question here. We want to take weapons out of circulation, we’re trying to limit easy access. We want to decrease the diverson of legal guns into the secondary market. Some of the weapons are stolen from legal gun owners or passed on to people who aren’t licensed.

No doubt the bad guys will continue to get illegal weapons, but we want to do everything we can to stop it.

 

[vls12345]

NRA Convention photos. More than one is of a child (as in 6 years old) holding/testing a gun.

Scenes from the annual NRA convention | Reuters.com

Hudson Eckart, 6, from Indiana, tries out a gun during the National Rifle Association (NRA) annual convention in Indianapolis, Indiana, April 15, 2023. REUTERS/Evelyn Hockstein

mobile.reuters.com

 

[MyBelle]

Interesting perspective, as I come from an evangelical upbringing I have a unique perspective. I’ll have to take a look.
What I do know is this…Evangelical religious groups are fundamentalists by definition.
This means they seek to retain and return families to a prior time in history, where their interpretation of the Bible was the norm.
Evangelicals in Texas traditionally have issues with these topics/ beliefs, in my experience.
- modern science of any kind as applied to their own life
- science teachers and schools who teach modern science
- empowering women to be educated, and financially independent
- divorce, interracial marriage, same sex marriage

What happened in Texas was a huge split in Baptists. Some churches remained Baptists, who follow the Southern Baptist Convention of churches. Other churches became independent and go by various names usually called Bible churches.

The empowering of women is a problem, as traditions call for women to be wives and mothers and men to be the bread winners.
Often men cannot make what is needed to support the family on their own, especially when the economy sux as it has for some time.
So, women go to work. They seek a split in chores, they need help, and traditional men don‘t see their job to include raising kids and house chores.

Traditional roles and power do not work when women become educated and earn as much as their spouse, or more than their spouse. Some men jump in and redefine their family differently, many do not. They are stuck in the 1950’s.

JMO

Very interesting. Thanks for your perspective! Do you have any idea why some churches are so opposed to Red Flag laws and other attempts to protect public safety?

Until I watched 20/20 the other night, I was not aware that some evangelicals hold the extreme view that women are subservient to their husband when it comes to family finances. The crime featured was the 2010 murder in St. Paul of Heidi Firkus. She and her husband, Nick met at church and were devoted members. The case went cold for more than a decade. A new detective--a woman--took a look at the cold case file and immediately noted a huge red flag: The Firkus' home was being foreclosed and a sheriff was going to arrive the day after the murder and evict them. Heidi had no knowledge about the foreclosure or their high credit card debt. Nick had total control.

Wife helps investigators catch husband in cold case murder of 1st spouse

 

[MyBelle]

bbm rsbm

Indeed, competitors might select another brand, but 3 Gun includes MSR:

The Exciting Sport of 3-Gun Shooting

One of the fastest growing shooting sports in the country right now is the action-packed multi-gun competition commonly known as "3-gun."

www.nssf.org

Explain how additional laws will help, when the shooters in Sacramento, Illinois, and New York all had illegally held firearms?

I don't know which Illinois shooter you are talking about but the mass shooter in Highland Park had a legally purchased firearm that his father helped him purchase even though the father knew his son had a history of violence and threats.

Father of alleged Highland Park parade shooter back in court; judge prods lawyers to move case along

The judge in the case against the father of alleged Highland Park parade mass shooter Robert Crimo III urged attorneys to keep legal proceedings on track during a hearing Tuesday in Lake County Cou…

www.chicagotribune.com