General Gun Violence/Gun Control

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Yet another mass shooting. A birthday party attended by teens in Alabama. The solution seems to be at the ballot box.

“This morning, I grieve with the people of Dadeville and my fellow Alabamians,” Kay Ivey, the governor of Alabama, said on Twitter.

“Violent crime has NO place in our state, and we are staying closely updated by law enforcement as details emerge.”

In 2022 Ivey signed a bill into law that ended the requirement for a person to obtain a permit to legally carry a concealed handgun in public. The National Rifle Association (NRA) had lobbied for it.

In an ad for her re-election campaign last year, Ivey was shown withdrawing a handgun from her purse as she touted her gun-friendly approach, describing the second amendment as “sacred”.

Alabama has the third-highest rate of gun deaths in the US, according to a 2020 report by Everytown, an organization that works to improve gun safety and end gun violence.


 
Someone upthread mentioned the rights to have individual responsibility. I think this is where the US differs to the rest of the (English speaking) world where it’s much more important to have the right to live in a safe society.

There have been many studies on this. See “individualism vs the common good”.
 
Checked the news today in Germany where I live and what do I see? Another shooting in the US. Here the CBC link, so it's in English. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ralph-yarl-shooting-kansas-city-1.6812744 I'm in disbelief. iirc this is not even the first time this kind of shooting has taken place in the US. It's really awful, being shot for going to the wrong door!!

Canada, the UK, Germany - these are all the countries I've lived in for a significant amount of time. The sheer number of incidents of gun violence just don't happen in these countries, though knife attacks seem to be on the rise in Germany just this year and the UK, especially London, for a while now (compared to a few decades ago when I lived in the UK, albeit not London). I'm not going to list any examples so just MOO IMO. Because I've never ever even for a short time lived in a country with anything like the Second Amendment, there's nothing I can do but shake my head in stunned disbelief.

What can any of us from other countries say? I - and it's not just me even on here, I can see that from the occasional other post - don't have the necessary mindset to wish to uphold the Second Amendment, having grown up in a different society without a Second Amendment. Certainly not something I wish any other countries would emulate! An American problem that needs to be solved somehow or other from within your own society, imho MOO. Well, I see the general gun violence as a problem but have to respect that possibly not everybody does.

eta: No disrespect meant to American society and Americans as a group or individually.
 
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Yet another mass shooting. A birthday party attended by teens in Alabama. The solution seems to be at the ballot box.

“This morning, I grieve with the people of Dadeville and my fellow Alabamians,” Kay Ivey, the governor of Alabama, said on Twitter.

“Violent crime has NO place in our state, and we are staying closely updated by law enforcement as details emerge.”

In 2022 Ivey signed a bill into law that ended the requirement for a person to obtain a permit to legally carry a concealed handgun in public. The National Rifle Association (NRA) had lobbied for it.

In an ad for her re-election campaign last year, Ivey was shown withdrawing a handgun from her purse as she touted her gun-friendly approach, describing the second amendment as “sacred”.

Alabama has the third-highest rate of gun deaths in the US, according to a 2020 report by Everytown, an organization that works to improve gun safety and end gun violence.



Kids at a party, and another today at a park. Sick
With that many injuries, this likely was another AR-15.
Unless taken apart in a duffle bag, or under a trench coat, it was not a concealed weapon.

We must do better!
 
I don't know which Illinois shooter you are talking about but the mass shooter in Highland Park had a legally purchased firearm that his father helped him purchase even though the father knew his son had a history of violence and threats.


I consider a fraudulent application an illegal purchase.

The father was charged for that crime:


The State of Illinois considers this an illegally held firearm. I agree.
 
Checked the news today in Germany where I live and what do I see? Another shooting in the US. Here the CBC link, so it's in English. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ralph-yarl-shooting-kansas-city-1.6812744 I'm in disbelief. iirc this is not even the first time this kind of shooting has taken place in the US. It's really awful, being shot for going to the wrong door!!

Canada, the UK, Germany - these are all the countries I've lived in for a significant amount of time. The sheer number of incidents of gun violence just don't happen in these countries, though knife attacks seem to be on the rise in Germany just this year and the UK, especially London, for a while now (compared to a few decades ago when I lived in the UK, albeit not London). I'm not going to list any examples so just MOO IMO. Because I've never ever even for a short time lived in a country with anything like the Second Amendment, there's nothing I can do but shake my head in stunned disbelief.

What can any of us from other countries say? I - and it's not just me even on here, I can see that from the occasional other post - don't have the necessary mindset to wish to uphold the Second Amendment, having grown up in a different society without a Second Amendment. Certainly not something I wish any other countries would emulate! An American problem that needs to be solved somehow or other from within your own society, imho MOO. Well, I see the general gun violence as a problem but have to respect that possibly not everybody does.

eta: No disrespect meant to American society and Americans as a group or individually.

No disrespect taken
I see why people may not understand why some Americans have strong thoughts regarding supporting the 2nd Amendment.
I’m a rural Texan, have been most all my life.
Rural areas can be 30-60 min or even more from a fire station or police station. Getting to school on a bus took us about 90 min. Rural people take care of their own business and rely on neighbors.
I was raised to think that government meddling in people’s daily lives was not welcomed. Local elected politicians understood the rural life, people raised in cities Did Not.

In rural areas guns are a tool, used often, and necessary.
A pack of over 5 wild dogs attacked and killed a neighbor man in his 80s at night as he walked from truck to house. He lived about a mile away. It took a few weeks for neighbors to find the dogs and shoot them. Do you think anyone was walking from their car to their home at night without a gun until those dogs were killed? No.
Do you think the police were called to drive out there, find and take care of these dogs for us? No.

I watched my grandmother shoot a stray dog that was hit by a car, gravely injured and dying. I shot a newborn calf that had been tore up by coyotes and was dying. I‘ve shot several skunks, rabid raccoons and stray dogs, and at least 20 rattle snakes.

Never would it enter my mind for me to give a person who lives in Los Angeles or New York city advice about how they should protect themselves, drive, or any aspect of their daily life. It is ridiculous to be told by someone who has not lived my life to say that because they don’t need a gun- I don’t need a gun. They probably don’t need coveralls, a tractor, a truck, muck boots, or leather gloves either. But I do.
Listen to gun control points of view with my perspective in mind, and you will hear how ridiculous some of the ’advice’ sounds to me.

What do I know… rural kids who are raised around livestock and guns do not commit mass murder. AR-15s may be used in movies and video games, but they have no place on a ranch.
I’ve never heard of a person using such a gun on a rabid dog, to obliterate its body, throw parts and blood everywhere, and have stray bullets pass through and fly to hit things a hundred yards away. Anyone using such a thing for such a purpose is an idiot.
You use a rifle, with a scope and it takes one shot. No wounding and suffering, no stray bullets, no obliteration of a living thing.
AR-15 is not a sport rifle. It is a very dangerous toy for those who like dangerous toys. It is also a weapon of mass destruction in the hands of the gun uneducated angry immature boys who lack respect for all life.

JMO
 
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What do I know… rural kids who are raised around livestock and guns do not commit mass murder. AR-15s may be used in movies and video games, but they have no place on a ranch.
^RSBM

Didn’t Devin Kelley, the Texas church shooter that left 26 dead, grow up on a rural ranch? Using a Ruger AR-15 variant.



 
bbm rsbm

Indeed, competitors might select another brand, but 3 Gun includes MSR:



Explain how additional laws will help, when the shooters in Sacramento, Illinois, and New York all had illegally held firearms?

OK, they’ve created a ’sport’ for AR-15s. You do know bass fishing tournaments are sponsored by companies who make boats? My point is… if I was the manufacturer of AR-15s, and thought this money making model may become illegal- I would give it credibility as a sport gun.

In the hands of its trainer, a full grown male lion is safer walking through a parade than an angry teen boy who purchased an AR-15 to commit mass murder.
Why is the AR-15 legal in this young man’s hands and the lion is illegal?

Our laws are written as if all guns are safe in the hands of all people. They are not.
I never said write ‘new laws’, I said our laws are not based on common sense.
Laws never prevent the lawless from breaking laws. Laws impact the law abiding.

JMO
 
I just wanted to mention a post I saw on Reddit that I thought was interesting.

Someone posted in the liberal gun owner group about how they were considering getting a gun for protection and asking if people thought it was a good idea. He said that he was scared in his own neighborhood and was getting into escalating situations that are more concerning and less rational. His examples were people yelling racial slurs at him and trying to run him over in a car and trying to start fights and throwing coffee at him and more.

I was a little concerned reading the long post just because I was envisioning someone throwing hot coffee at him (which is bad) and his responding by shooting them (which is also bad).

In looking through the responses, some people were cautious and telling him that he would probably be safer learning some de-escalation and conflict avoidance techniques. Others were cautious and telling him that he shouldn't get a gun without taking a gun safety class and a class on guns as self dense and then practicing with it. And others looked at his post history and saw some concerning posts in his past, including about his use of psychedelics. And those people were cautioning him about being overly paranoid and telling him that he needed to consult with a mental health professional and get evaluated for fitness before considering a gun purchase. Also pointing out that having a gun when using illegal drugs was illegal and would involve lying on background checks.

I was pretty pleased to see that though the group does like their guns, and will support the use of them for self defense in the home, in this case they were very, very cautious in not recommending it and suggesting alternatives (and that the person needed to see a mental health professional). Whether or not he takes this advice, I don't know.
 
^RSBM

Didn’t Devin Kelley, the Texas church shooter that left 26 dead, grow up on a rural ranch? Using a Ruger AR-15 variant.




He lived on a 28 acre property with his parents.
Living in the country is not the same as growing up on a livestock ranch. A 28 acre property cannot be a livestock ranch- that size may support 1-3 head of cattle.

The article says it was a DV situation, he shot up the church where his mother in law attended.
He was a security guard, likely enjoyed guns as toys.
He was not a rural kid who grew up on a livestock ranch.

JMO
 
I just wanted to mention a post I saw on Reddit that I thought was interesting.

Someone posted in the liberal gun owner group about how they were considering getting a gun for protection and asking if people thought it was a good idea. He said that he was scared in his own neighborhood and was getting into escalating situations that are more concerning and less rational. His examples were people yelling racial slurs at him and trying to run him over in a car and trying to start fights and throwing coffee at him and more.

I was a little concerned reading the long post just because I was envisioning someone throwing hot coffee at him (which is bad) and his responding by shooting them (which is also bad).

In looking through the responses, some people were cautious and telling him that he would probably be safer learning some de-escalation and conflict avoidance techniques. Others were cautious and telling him that he shouldn't get a gun without taking a gun safety class and a class on guns as self dense and then practicing with it. And others looked at his post history and saw some concerning posts in his past, including about his use of psychedelics. And those people were cautioning him about being overly paranoid and telling him that he needed to consult with a mental health professional and get evaluated for fitness before considering a gun purchase. Also pointing out that having a gun when using illegal drugs was illegal and would involve lying on background checks.

I was pretty pleased to see that though the group does like their guns, and will support the use of them for self defense in the home, in this case they were very, very cautious in not recommending it and suggesting alternatives (and that the person needed to see a mental health professional). Whether or not he takes this advice, I don't know.

Good to hear the public is hearing that at least some gun owners are responsible.
It has always seemed funny to me that the liberal left spouts these two arguments at the same time.
- There are too many guns in the United States. Some figures say over 350 million guns are in circulation in the United States.
- Gun owners are not responsible people with their guns- they are causing the gun deaths.

If there are 350 million guns in this country, and even half of those guns are owned by irresponsible people or criminals we should be having WW2 every single day.
There are obviously many many thousands to millions more responsible law abiding guns owners than there are irresponsible nutty gun owners and criminals.

Deaths by guns are caused by the very few irresponsible, unsafe, or unlawful gun owners or by criminals. The math is all that is needed to see that has to be the case.

So in Gun Control debates we must realize that the many thousands to millions of law abiding gun owners will never allow the few who are idiots or criminals be used to define the laws that control what law abiding citizens can do. Laws don’t control people who don’t abide by laws.

JMO
 
He lived on a 28 acre property with his parents.
Living in the country is not the same as growing up on a livestock ranch. A 28 acre property cannot be a livestock ranch- that size may support 1-3 head of cattle.

The article says it was a DV situation, he shot up the church where his mother in law attended.
He was a security guard, likely enjoyed guns as toys.
He was not a rural kid who grew up on a livestock ranch.

JMO
Fair enough, and makes sense. Now, how do we keep the guns only in the hands of the responsible people who do need and use them for the right reasons? That feels to me like the dilemma we can’t resolve.
 
Fair enough, and makes sense. Now, how do we keep the guns only in the hands of the responsible people who do need and use them for the right reasons? That feels to me like the dilemma we can’t resolve.

It seems guns used in these mass shootings were purchased within 30-90 days prior to the event. Large amounts of ammo were also purchased in that time period. Sometimes multiple guns are purchased within a short period of time.

That should be a Red Flag.

Do I mean to imply that every person who purchased several guns and lots of ammo in a short period of time must be a mass shooter? No.
Am I implying doing so should be illegal? No.

I’m saying it is a Red Flag.
What do we do about that red flag? I’m not sure.

The culture here includes being skeptical that the government is working in your best interest. It is almost assumed that the federal government is likely corrupt.
Our Constitution includes the 2nd Amendment because we fought the Revolutionary War to gain our freedom from a tyrannical government. The intention is to allow citizens to defend themselves, even if who they are fighting against is their own government.
If the colonists had not had guns, we would not be Americans. We would be British.
Much of the pride in Texas comes from being once an independent country, meaning we can do this alone if we must. We are a state if it benefits us, but we don’t have to be, is kinda the mentality of many.

So- most Texans will never submit to any federal control, or registry of their guns.
Doing so would mean the government could come to every gun owners home, know what guns they had, and take their guns.
I am one of those- my guns are not registered anywhere and cannot be traced back to me.
Consider Ukraine, what if Russia had a list of all the gun owners and the guns they had and decided to come in and collect all of them. The Ukrainians would now be Russians.

That leaves us at an impasse

JMO
 
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It seems guns used in these mass shootings were purchased within 30-90 days prior to the event. Large amounts of ammo were also purchased in that time period. Sometimes multiple guns are purchased within a short period of time.

That should be a Red Flag.

Do I mean to imply that every person who purchased several guns and lots of ammo in a short period of time must be a mass shooter? No.
Am I implying doing so should be illegal? No.

I’m saying it is a Red Flag.
What do we do about that red flag? I’m not sure.

The culture here includes being skeptical that the government is working in your best interest. It is almost assumed that the federal government is likely corrupt.
Our Constitution includes the 2nd Amendment because we fought the Revolutionary War to gain our freedom from a tyrannical government. The intention is to allow citizens to defend themselves, even if who they are fighting against is their own government.
If the colonists had not had guns, we would not be Americans. We would be British.
Much of the pride in Texas comes from being once an independent country, meaning we can do this alone if we must. We are a state if it benefits us, but we don’t have to be, is kinda the mentality of many.

So- most Texans will never submit to any federal control, or registry of their guns.
Doing so would mean the government could come to every gun owners home, know what guns they had, and take their guns.
I am one of those- my guns are not registered anywhere and cannot be traced back to me.
Consider Ukraine, what if Russia had a list of all the gun owners and the guns they had and decided to come in and collect all of them. The Ukrainians would now be Russians.

That leaves us at an impasse

JMO
Wow. So you are saying you aren't really a country because you could never trust your government?
I feel sad for you.
Most other developed Western nations are perfectly fine with their goverment. Perhaps the problem is with the mindset of some Americans....one of lack of trust. That is not a civilized society in my opinion (which is just in my small mind). Unfortunately.
 
Wow. So you are saying you aren't really a country because you could never trust your government?
I feel sad for you.
Most other developed Western nations are perfectly fine with their goverment. Perhaps the problem is with the mindset of some Americans....one of lack of trust. That is not a civilized society in my opinion (which is just in my small mind). Unfortunately.
We didn’t make this stuff up. Blame our forefathers.

 
Wow. So you are saying you aren't really a country because you could never trust your government?
I feel sad for you.
Most other developed Western nations are perfectly fine with their goverment. Perhaps the problem is with the mindset of some Americans....one of lack of trust. That is not a civilized society. Unfortunately.

That isn’t what I said or meant.
Texas was once a country of its own, literally. Texas had a president and its own independent government before it became a state. For this reason the culture of many Texans is that we trust our local government, but not so much the federal government.

Currently I would venture to say that many Americans believe the federal government is corrupt at many levels and are unhappy. Tomorrow is income tax day, it is tough to send that check and question if our government is careful with our tax dollars.

Do I think our nation is ruined, uncivilized, or a failure?
No, a government is like a marriage. There are good times and rough times. Citizens get lazy and don’t pay attention, and corrupt politicians get into power, then citizens get pissed and clean house and we get back to something most of us agree on. I’ve lived through several cycles of this.

Do I believe “most other developed Western nations are perfectly fine with their government” ? No. There are zero developed nations where all citizens are ‘perfectly fine’ with their government. Governments where people are free are always in flux, and it is active citizens that keep them in line And right them when they get corrupt.

JMO
 
That isn’t what I said or meant.
Texas was once a country of its own, literally. Texas had a president and its own independent government before it became a state. For this reason the culture of many Texans is that we trust our local government, but not so much the federal government.

Currently I would venture to say that many Americans believe the federal government is corrupt at many levels and are unhappy. Tomorrow is income tax day, it is tough to send that check and question if our government is careful with our tax dollars.

Do I think our nation is ruined, uncivilized, or a failure?
No, a government is like a marriage. There are good times and rough times. Citizens get lazy and don’t pay attention, and corrupt politicians get into power, then citizens get pissed and clean house and we get back to something most of us agree on. I’ve lived through several cycles of this.

Do I believe “most other developed Western nations are perfectly fine with their government” ? No. There are zero developed nations where all citizens are ‘perfectly fine’ with their government. Governments where people are free are always in flux, and it is active citizens that keep them in line And right them when they get corrupt.

JMO
I never said that in other countries ALL citizens are fine with their government. That would never be the case.

But I find it odd that Americans base their country's values on not trusting their government. A society based on lack of trust is not a society. In a democratic society the people vote for their government. As a result of democratic elections doesn't their government reflect their own beliefs and goals?

ETA: I absolutely appreciate your comments @AngTxGal ...I'm just trying to understand. I think you've given me lots to think about and I haven't adressed many of your very valid points.
 
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We didn’t make this stuff up. Blame our forefathers.


I have no issue with The Constitution, I’m a very proud American.
The system is to have checks and balances, and force two parties to find compromise.
Currently our country is polarized, little compromise is happening.
I don’t think it will be like this forever, we will figure it out…but I won’t pretend all is rosy when it clearly isn’t.

The stats of gun violence clearly show we have a problem.
Our government is not acting on an issue all of us here think is important, so the problem persists.
How could I then follow that with- ‘my government is working perfectly fine.’

I don’t go to the other extreme either- My country is crap and I’ll move to Canada.

People will work it out
JMO
 
I consider a fraudulent application an illegal purchase.

The father was charged for that crime:


The State of Illinois considers this an illegally held firearm. I agree
The father wasn't charged with an illegal firearm purchase nor was he charged for the fraudulent application.

The father was charged with felony reckless conduct because he knew his son's violent history and threats and yet he sponsored his son's Firearm Owner's ID card when his son was age 19.

The son committed the slaughter of innocent families with his legal semi-automatic weapon while standing on a rooftop at age 22.
 
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