General Gun Violence/Gun Control

[Eli9]

This red flag didn't go smoothly.
March 24
A teacher claimed she wanted to self harm and shoot some students. Then she said she would never harm a student. Making it worse the guidance counselor she spoke with (at the school) reported the first claim and then tried to walk it back by saying she has short term memory issues.
LE confiscated 3 guns and ammo from her home.
The teacher returned to work several days later.
April 14 which is when the Florida Department of Education was informed and stepped in at which time the teacher was removed.
Teacher in Florida investigated after allegedly saying she had 'bad thoughts' and wanted to shoot students

Fox Chapel Middle School incident stirs outrage among parents

Hernando Sun Newspaper covers Brooksville, Masaryktown, Spring Hill, Ridge Manor, Weeki Wachee News

www.hernandosun.com

Letter from the Superintendent to Fox Chapel Middle

Accessible version of Letter from Superintendent

www.hernandoschools.org

Confusion abounds about Fox Chapel incident

An investigation into an incident at Fox Chapel Middle School is continuing and a teacher has been removed from student contact, School Superintendent John Stratton said in a letter released

www.suncoastnews.com

I'm not sure why the teacher was allowed to return to school so quickly or what the investigation process was by the district but someone (a parent ?) escalated the issue to the Dept of Ed and they had the final say.
Maybe the school district was satisfied that her weapons had been confiscated and temp RPO was granted?

What are your thoughts on what should have happened and what should happen going forward? It doesn't even have to be this specific case as I'm just throwing it out there as an example.

 

[MyBelle]

This red flag didn't go smoothly.
March 24
A teacher claimed she wanted to self harm and shoot some students. Then she said she would never harm a student. Making it worse the guidance counselor she spoke with (at the school) reported the first claim and then tried to walk it back by saying she has short term memory issues.
LE confiscated 3 guns and ammo from her home.
The teacher returned to work several days later.
April 14 which is when the Florida Department of Education was informed and stepped in at which time the teacher was removed.
Teacher in Florida investigated after allegedly saying she had 'bad thoughts' and wanted to shoot students

Fox Chapel Middle School incident stirs outrage among parents

Hernando Sun Newspaper covers Brooksville, Masaryktown, Spring Hill, Ridge Manor, Weeki Wachee News

www.hernandosun.com

Letter from the Superintendent to Fox Chapel Middle

Accessible version of Letter from Superintendent

www.hernandoschools.org

Confusion abounds about Fox Chapel incident

An investigation into an incident at Fox Chapel Middle School is continuing and a teacher has been removed from student contact, School Superintendent John Stratton said in a letter released

www.suncoastnews.com

I'm not sure why the teacher was allowed to return to school so quickly or what the investigation process was by the district but someone (a parent ?) escalated the issue to the Dept of Ed and they had the final say.
Maybe the school district was satisfied that her weapons had been confiscated and temp RPO was granted?

What are your thoughts on what should have happened and what should happen going forward? It doesn't even have to be this specific case as I'm just throwing it out there as an example.

Sounds like the school district handled the situation appropriately.

JMO

 

[AngTxGal]

We have to register our vehicles and pass a driving test if we want to drive them. The same should be required for firearms.

JMO

If the goal is to prevent gun accidents and mass shootings… resources should focus on the people and the guns involved in accidents and mass shootings.
Making changes in the lives of an enormous number of gun owners to pretend to make a difference is a waste of good will, resources, and time and energy that could be making a difference.

I support new gun buyers registering their guns, completing a gun safety course, and also background checks.
I also support raising the age of gun ownership to 21, for all guns, and all ammo.

The reality is- registration, gun safety courses, and background checks costs money. If the price of getting and using a gun legally goes up people will bypass retail stores, and the system intending to catch those planning a mass murder will catch no one.

Understand none of these measures would impact me. Solutions that do not impact people who have been responsible gun owners for decades have a better chance for gun owner support.
The 2022 stats show 47% of Americans own at least 1 gun. Once again, these stats must be too low. No forms anywhere have ever contained my name related to a gun. To my knowledge, none of my family would be in these stats.
Measures that seasoned gun owners perceive as invading privacy, expensive, inconvenient, or a small step in a larger plan to create a list, or further remove guns- will never work.
Gun Owners will never support them.
Changes in Gun Laws will never happen without the support of Gun Owners, which likely are greater than 50% of the US population.

JMO

 

[AngTxGal]

I guess my problem with this is that the govt mistrust originates from prior to 1776.
And the 2nd amendment originates in 1791.

And yet these events from 230+ years ago are held as a reason why modern high powered, military-style firearms are acceptable for public use in the US.

The landscape has changed a lot since then. And the US has (mostly) been highly regarded by its allies. We stand by the US in times of world conflict, and vice versa.

How do we get the (relevant) US people's mindset into 2023 instead of the late 1700s?

My attempt to help you understand my point of view and the history behind the 2nd Amendment movement in the US evidently missed the mark.
I’m not sure what your goal is, but it doesn’t seem to be understanding.

Know that this question is irrelevant
“How do ‘we’ get the ’relevant’ US people’s mindset…”
Here… in the United States
1) it won’t be anyone who is not a US citizen that changes any American’s mindset.
2) all mindsets of all Americans are relevant.

G’day
JMO

 

[MyBelle]

If the goal is to prevent gun accidents and mass shootings… resources should focus on the people and the guns involved in accidents and mass shootings.
Making changes in the lives of an enormous number of gun owners to pretend to make a difference is a waste of good will, resources, and time and energy that could be making a difference.

I support new gun buyers registering their guns, completing a gun safety course, and also background checks.
I also support raising the age of gun ownership to 21, for all guns, and all ammo.

The reality is- registration, gun safety courses, and background checks costs money. If the price of getting and using a gun legally goes up people will bypass retail stores, and the system intending to catch those planning a mass murder will catch no one.

Understand none of these measures would impact me. Solutions that do not impact people who have been responsible gun owners for decades have a better chance for gun owner support.
The 2022 stats show 47% of Americans own at least 1 gun. Once again, these stats must be too low. No forms anywhere have ever contained my name related to a gun. To my knowledge, none of my family would be in these stats.
Measures that seasoned gun owners perceive as invading privacy, expensive, inconvenient, or a small step in a larger plan to create a list, or further remove guns- will never work.
Gun Owners will never support them.
Changes in Gun Laws will never happen without the support of Gun Owners, which likely are greater than 50% of the US population.

JMO

BBM. Changes in gun laws are already happening because of the increase in mass shootings. I think it will be a major issue with the upcoming federal 2024 election as well as state elections.

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/25/1107626030/biden-signs-gun-safety-law

 

[SouthAussie]

My attempt to help you understand my point of view and the history behind the 2nd Amendment movement in the US evidently missed the mark.
I’m not sure what your goal is, but it doesn’t seem to be understanding.

Know that this question is irrelevant
“How do ‘we’ get the ’relevant’ US people’s mindset…”
Here… in the United States
1) it won’t be anyone who is not a US citizen that changes any American’s mindset.
2) all mindsets of all Americans are relevant.

G’day
JMO

My apologies, it seems that I have offended you.

I am intrinsically linked to the US. Having resided there for almost 20 years, have a child who is ½ American, am eligible for US Social Security payments (when the time arrives) due to working there for so long, and moved back to Australia primarily because I wanted a life for said child that did not include fear of being shot or entering her school through metal detectors. We visit family there almost every year.

My interest in this issue is not as a complete outsider. I realise that you may not know this, though others do.

Peace.

 

[MyBelle]

I guess my problem with this is that the govt mistrust originates from prior to 1776.
And the 2nd amendment originates in 1791.

And yet these events from 230+ years ago are held as a reason why modern high powered, military-style firearms are acceptable for public use in the US.

The landscape has changed a lot since then. And the US has (mostly) been highly regarded by its allies. We stand by the US in times of world conflict, and vice versa.

How do we get the (relevant) US people's mindset into 2023 instead of the late 1700s?

I think that mindset is changing. At least I hope it is. The NRA is very worried.....

NRA calls for opposition of possible Tennessee Red Flag Law

Weeks after The Covenant School Shooting, the National Rifle Association released a statement regarding the possibility of red flag law in Tennessee.

www.newschannel5.com

 

[branmuffin]

We have a very hard time doing that, as it requires consent of ⅔ of the 50 states. If we hold a constitutional convention, it's possible that some will try to change other parts of the Constitution and at this time in US History, it could be exceedingly dangerous (and result in the 2nd Amendment being strengthened or at least left in place, but some other thing - such as an Anti-abortion amendment could result).

While most Americans would not be in favor of an anti-abortion amendment and might be in favor of eliminating the 2nd, it's not up to the total view point. California, with 12% of the US population, and NY (about 3% of the population, I think) would almost certainly be in favor of 2nd Amendment modifications, but they would weigh no more heavily in the vote than Wyoming, which has only 568,000 people. California has 39,000,000 people. Montana would get equal weight too, with only 1 million. Red (gun loving) states probably out number the others.

It's a serious issue with almost no fix at this point in time. We rely upon our Senate and our House of Representatives to make laws (and the 2nd Amendment does not say "Hey, everyone should have guns everywhere and no one should have any limits on type of number of guns!)

Indeed, it says something very different:

Second Amendment Right to Bear Arms​

• A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
  
  
  -----------
  Note that the amendment itself mentions two things (a militia and regulation). So we have the right to own weapons, but it's because we needed a citizen militia/army back when the document was written and it does mention regulation - which is the job of Congress.
  IMO. The solution is gun regulation, allowed by the Constitution. At least right now, that's the solution. But the gun lobby is enormous and owns so many of our legislators, IMO.
  
  
  

When you say you need 2/3 of the 50 states are you referring to the actual population of each state or 2/3 of the elected officials in each state? In Canada, we do referendums strictly by population, not by representative. Much more fair and accurate. At least a person's own bias makes the voting decision, not someone who is voting on 'your' behalf and not the political party's platform. Also, the Canadian government has failed to implement a referendum vote when the voter turnout was low or the difference between the yay's and nay's was so low as to be negligible. Case in point: voting for Prohibition in 1898.

 

[AngTxGal]

Thank you for your long personal post. It certainly helps me understand somewhat better. I have the impression from your word usage etc. that it's an emotional topic, which I don't see negatively. It seems the gun control debate may feel as if it gets at the core of your being. I'm not sure if I'm expressing that well. But if it's similar for many Americans then that helps explain why it seems to some non-Americans such as myself that the process for change on this topic is very slow or even completely stuck.

Some points from me: Canada has a lot of rural areas too where it's going to take a good long while for the RCMP to show up. Some Canadians obviously do have guns, I'm not sure on the statistics but presuming a higher percentage of rural Canadians have guns than town/city-based Canadians. otoh there are rural Canadians without guns on the premise, including relatives of mine who are really far out in the boondocks and up north too, with wild animals roaming around etc. Historically some things were different in Canada, different development, no Second Amendment, but nonetheless there is a rural population including hunters e.g. among the First Nations but not only there.

Even the UK has some remote areas and up until maybe 30-40 years ago very narrow, single-track and twisting roads to reach those areas, not to mention lots of islands, but after the one and only mass school shooting (afaik anyway) in Dunblane in 1996, there was a petition to tighten gun laws and they were tightened. How the 1996 Dunblane Massacre Pushed the U.K. to Enact Stricter Gun Laws

Not that I've ever handled a gun before, but from afar so to speak we're on the same side of the debate with respect to AR-15s.

MOO IMO JMO

Yes, you are correct that the gun control debate does get at the core of my being. There are only 27 Amendments To the US Constitution. It would seem it is one of 27 issues that the forefathers thought was pretty important.
Still, some would take this right away because a few people misuse that right. This Gun Con troll debate is older than the first mass school shooting at Columbine. The debates began in the 1960’s and 1970’s, Columbine happened in 1999.
I find your respectful approach interesting, and I appreciate it. I have no issue answering questions and providing my point of view. Believing what has worked in one country will then work in another just isn’t true. What works in one county may not work in another, here in Texas.
It is Crystal Clear that there will not ever be changes in gun laws in the US with the intent to prevent mass shootings so long as political groups take the approach that they just want gun owners to sit back and allow their rights to be removed.

Any politician who does not attempt to accurately represent the feelings, values, beliefs, fears, of the gun owning public is not welcomed in such a debate regarding guns in the US.
This is a free country, and elected officials come and go. Beware of any politician that promises they can help prevent mass shootings using a ‘one size fits all’ solution. That just isn’t going to fly, because it isn’t true.

Changes will come from someone who is a gun owner, who lives in an area where gun ownership is understood- who can bridge the gap between the two sides to find a compromise. That compromise must be the best solution that maintains the rights of gun owners while curbing guns in the hands of those who commit mass murder.

Until that solution comes forward with over 50% support- we are at an impasse.

JMO

 

[AngTxGal]

BBM. Changes in gun laws are already happening because of the increase in mass shootings. I think it will be a major issue with the upcoming federal 2024 election as well as state elections.

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/25/1107626030/biden-signs-gun-safety-law

Yes, and because I work in education and have kids in school- I look forward to changes that work.
It is about time politicians did the hard work to find compromise! The price in lost lives, and trust, and trauma has been high.

JMO

 

[Lexiintoronto]

If the goal is to prevent gun accidents and mass shootings… resources should focus on the people and the guns involved in accidents and mass shootings.
Making changes in the lives of an enormous number of gun owners to pretend to make a difference is a waste of good will, resources, and time and energy that could be making a difference.

I support new gun buyers registering their guns, completing a gun safety course, and also background checks.
I also support raising the age of gun ownership to 21, for all guns, and all ammo.

The reality is- registration, gun safety courses, and background checks costs money. If the price of getting and using a gun legally goes up people will bypass retail stores, and the system intending to catch those planning a mass murder will catch no one.

Understand none of these measures would impact me. Solutions that do not impact people who have been responsible gun owners for decades have a better chance for gun owner support.
The 2022 stats show 47% of Americans own at least 1 gun. Once again, these stats must be too low. No forms anywhere have ever contained my name related to a gun. To my knowledge, none of my family would be in these stats.
Measures that seasoned gun owners perceive as invading privacy, expensive, inconvenient, or a small step in a larger plan to create a list, or further remove guns- will never work.
Gun Owners will never support them.
Changes in Gun Laws will never happen without the support of Gun Owners, which likely are greater than 50% of the US population.

JMO

I’ve tried to find the stats you’re referring to, but haven’t found them.

2020 stats that are consistent with prior 13 years of data: “Thirty-two percent of U.S. adults say they personally own a gun, while a larger percentage, 44%, report living in a gun household. Adults living in gun households include those with a gun in their home or anywhere on their property.”

What Percentage of Americans Own Guns?

Read Gallup's short answer to this common question about gun ownership, including what percentages of major demographic subgroups own guns.

news.gallup.com

I think within the gun owners in the States you will find differing views on gun registration and laws. You’d need a majority of people to make a change, not necessarily the majority of gun owners, imo.

And from what I’ve read here the changes in the US won’t happen with a referendum.

This is said with respect as I don’t know you—I’m genuinely surprised that your weapons aren’t registered (don’t they have to be?) but you wrote:

“I support new gun buyers registering their guns, completing a gun safety course, and also background checks.
I also support raising the age of gun ownership to 21, for all guns, and all ammo.”

 

[seasideForest]

Just a reminder that assault weapons were banned in the US until 2004, when the law banning them was allowed to expire.

RSBM
Thank you for pointing that out, I didn't know. I don't know much about the ins and outs of weapon law in the US. I'm just one of these people from outside the US who looks on at best with huge surprise.

Rather a shame putting it mildly that that law was allowed to expire. And how can it be reinstated? is my next thought on the matter. If somebody has already explained that in this thread, then don't bother re-explaining, just point me in the right direction.

 

[MyBelle]

I’ve tried to find the stats you’re referring to, but haven’t found them.

2020 stats that are consistent with prior 13 years of data: “Thirty-two percent of U.S. adults say they personally own a gun, while a larger percentage, 44%, report living in a gun household. Adults living in gun households include those with a gun in their home or anywhere on their property.”

What Percentage of Americans Own Guns?

Read Gallup's short answer to this common question about gun ownership, including what percentages of major demographic subgroups own guns.

news.gallup.com

I think within the gun owners in the States you will find differing views on gun registration and laws. You’d need a majority of people to make a change, not necessarily the majority of gun owners, imo.

And from what I’ve read here the changes in the US won’t happen with a referendum.

This is said with respect as I don’t know you—I’m genuinely surprised that you’re weapons aren’t registered (don’t they have to be?) but you wrote:

“I support new gun buyers registering their guns, completing a gun safety course, and also background checks.
I also support raising the age of gun ownership to 21, for all guns, and all ammo.”

BBM. I agree, the key is majority of people. A bi-partisan gun bill was passed by Congress last summer and was signed into law. It's a good start and includes funding to help states set up crisis intervention programs like Red Flag laws.

I think what an overwhelming majority of people are frustrated with at this point, are the states that have refused to enact the crisis intervention legislation. Tennessee's Governor supports such legislation. The NRA opposes it.

 

[seasideForest]

If the goal is to prevent gun accidents and mass shootings… resources should focus on the people and the guns involved in accidents and mass shootings.
Making changes in the lives of an enormous number of gun owners to pretend to make a difference is a waste of good will, resources, and time and energy that could be making a difference.

I support new gun buyers registering their guns, completing a gun safety course, and also background checks.
I also support raising the age of gun ownership to 21, for all guns, and all ammo.


JMO

RSBM for focus.

Just jumping off your post @AngTxGal because you mentioned raising gun ownership age, but I think it wasn't your main point, so don't feel you need to reply.

Neuroscience now tells us that the brain isn't fully developed until about the age of 25, this refers especially to the pre-frontal cortex where rational decisions are made. Understanding the Teen Brain - Health Encyclopedia - University of Rochester Medical Center

Maturation of the adolescent brain This article explains in a lot of detail about impulsive decision-making among adolescents and that "adolescent" isn't synonymous with "teenager". They don't refer to gun usage, but rather drug usage and other risk-taking behaviours. They also explain that even younger teens are able to make rational decisions in the abstract, but it's in an actual concrete situation especially in the heat of the moment that they lose access to the pre-frontal cortex. (Very simplified explanation - for more detail, read the article.) It's just an added risk having that age group with a weapon in their hand, even though undoubtedly there are very responsible young adults in their early 20's who'd never act on their impulses, lose their head completely and shoot anything that moves or shoot their grumpy neighbour. MOO

So how about raising the age of gun ownership to 25? Except rifles for the rural population. I don't know enough about law-making to suggest how an exception for younger adults could be written into law if it could be proven that they actually need a gun on the ranch or they hunt for their own food. As another poster mentioned further up thread, Canadian laws on gun ownership (and on other things) sometimes have different clauses for the First Nations and Inuit. That could be an issue in the US too, I genuinely don't know. There are possibly other reasons for adults under 25 to have a gun, e.g. employment - that could cover gun on the ranch too and e.g. field geologists. I presume there are different laws in place for young adults in the armed and police forces.

I'm just putting my ideas out there. Somebody else can develop them further, or not as the case may be. Thank you everybody so far for a respectful discussion on this thread.

MOO JMO

 

[SouthAussie]

I think that mindset is changing. At least I hope it is. The NRA is very worried.....

NRA calls for opposition of possible Tennessee Red Flag Law

Weeks after The Covenant School Shooting, the National Rifle Association released a statement regarding the possibility of red flag law in Tennessee.

www.newschannel5.com

Reading a bit more about Tennessee ....

"For you lawmakers, GOP, Bill Lee and Cameron Sexton you better get ready. At 22 years old, me, my friend and my community are coming for that house," said a Vanderbilt University student.
Tennessee 'Moral Monday Rally' draws hundreds to the capitol for gun reform

Maybe the young adults who strongly want to do something about the gun violence are going to start moving into the world of politics and law?

 

[RANCH]

UK may soon seize kitchen knives from suspected criminals' homes amid dangerous weapons crackdown

Machetes and zombie knives could be banned in England and Wales, with people selling them facing up to two years in jail, under a proposed law in the UK.

www.foxnews.com

"Machetes and other large knives are a danger to our communities." Home Secretary Suella Braverman said. "Stabbings and murders are all too widespread. As thugs attack each other on our streets with these weapons, they pose a serious problem in some of our towns and cities."

So we may have to impose knife laws to prevent violent deaths in the US like the UK.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

UK may soon seize kitchen knives from suspected criminals' homes amid dangerous weapons crackdown

Machetes and zombie knives could be banned in England and Wales, with people selling them facing up to two years in jail, under a proposed law in the UK.

www.foxnews.com

"Machetes and other large knives are a danger to our communities." Home Secretary Suella Braverman said. "Stabbings and murders are all too widespread. As thugs attack each other on our streets with these weapons, they pose a serious problem in some of our towns and cities."

So we may have to impose knife laws to prevent violent deaths in the US like the UK

Good, I hope we ban them, no need for them whatsoever in British society. Banning guns seems to have worked pretty well here, so it’s a sensible decision.

 

[AngTxGal]

BBM. Changes in gun laws are already happening because of the increase in mass shootings. I think it will be a major issue with the upcoming federal 2024 election as well as state elections.

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/25/1107626030/biden-signs-gun-safety-law

We will see what happens at the state level.

Considering noticing Red Flags is an attempt to say something is happening.
It is the implementation of Red Flag laws that is tricky. The devil is always in the details.

Basically Red Flag laws are “see something say something“ with regard to gun ownership.

This is what it says
The legislation, which passed the House 234-193 Friday night following Senate approval Thursday, includes incentives for states to pass so-called red flag laws that allow groups to petition courts to remove weapons from people deemed a threat to themselves or others.
https://www.npr.org/2022/06/25/1107626030/biden-signs-gun-safety-law

This could go very well, be a flop, or cause huge issues.
It completely depends on who these ‘groups’ are And who they target.

If the AZ who was shot in VA by the 6 yr old got others together to petition to keep guns away from the 6 yr old it would have worked.
- how long does the process take
- could his parents have prolonged the process
- who must be in the group? How many, who reviews the petitions?

Violent Teens at School
If this empowers teachers to remove guns from households of children, teens, and young people who are violent at school- I support this 100%!
Make it inconvenient for their parents!
Especially if it leads to children and young people getting the services they need.
Especially if it is supported by mental health services, that currently are not in place.

Teens using Police/ Services to Terrorize
This should begin with young people who call in threats to schools, or call in SWATs to peers.
Track them down and file charges.
Their homes should contain no guns. I would add that they should be banned from obtaining a gun without a mental eval For the rest of their lives.

What wasn’t addressed was the ‘boyfriend loophhole’. A young woman dating a violent young man who has suffered DV, should be able to RedFlag him as violent and have his guns taken away. That has not been addressed- and this keeps those young women vulnerable- as per the stats.

Once young people and their parents begin to be held accountable, this madness may stop!

JMO

 

[AngTxGal]

UK may soon seize kitchen knives from suspected criminals' homes amid dangerous weapons crackdown

Machetes and zombie knives could be banned in England and Wales, with people selling them facing up to two years in jail, under a proposed law in the UK.

www.foxnews.com

"Machetes and other large knives are a danger to our communities." Home Secretary Suella Braverman said. "Stabbings and murders are all too widespread. As thugs attack each other on our streets with these weapons, they pose a serious problem in some of our towns and cities."

So we may have to impose knife laws to prevent violent deaths in the US like the UK.

I have no issues with taking all dangerous weapons away from people who have shown they are violent and harm others with dangerous weapons.

I would not support either of these
-rounding up of knives from everyone? No.
-rounding up of guns from law abiding citizens? No.

These thugs will find something else to use…that is the reality. Thugs in schools use a sharp pencil. In prison they use a sharp anything they can get.

If thugs begin to break into homes to obtain something to use to harm others, and law abiding citizens do not have anything to protect themselves- who has been harmed?
Here if a breaks into a home for any reason- home owners can protect themselves.

If the system isn’t going to keep people with a history of violence away from weapons or in a cage so the rest of us are safe- what is our option?
- let them terrorize the rest of us
- let our rights be removed from us
- send them to their maker

JMO

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Thing is, they’re often law abiding citizens until one day they’re not.

As for knives - there is no need for anyone on this island to have a machete in this day and age. None whatsoever. Ban them.