General Gun Violence/Gun Control

[Melt71]

........

These thugs will find something else to use…that is the reality. Thugs in schools use a sharp pencil. In prison they use a sharp anything they can get.

If thugs begin to break into homes to obtain something to use to harm others, and law abiding citizens do not have anything to protect themselves- who has been harmed?
Here if a breaks into a home for any reason- home owners can protect themselves.

......

But by this reasoning those of us in non-weaponised communities (such as Australia) should have seen a rise in mass pencil stabbings or home invasions simply because we no longer have guns to prevent these events. I'm interested in your thoughts on why that wasn't the case?

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I have a huge didgeridoo on my landing. If someone breaks into my house they’re getting knocked straight back down the steep wonky staircase. (Thank you, Australia)

 

[MyBelle]

We will see what happens at the state level.

Considering noticing Red Flags is an attempt to say something is happening.
It is the implementation of Red Flag laws that is tricky. The devil is always in the details.

Basically Red Flag laws are “see something say something“ with regard to gun ownership.

This is what it says
The legislation, which passed the House 234-193 Friday night following Senate approval Thursday, includes incentives for states to pass so-called red flag laws that allow groups to petition courts to remove weapons from people deemed a threat to themselves or others.
https://www.npr.org/2022/06/25/1107626030/biden-signs-gun-safety-law

This could go very well, be a flop, or cause huge issues.
It completely depends on who these ‘groups’ are And who they target.

If the AZ who was shot in VA by the 6 yr old got others together to petition to keep guns away from the 6 yr old it would have worked.
- how long does the process take
- could his parents have prolonged the process
- who must be in the group? How many, who reviews the petitions?

Violent Teens at School
If this empowers teachers to remove guns from households of children, teens, and young people who are violent at school- I support this 100%!
Make it inconvenient for their parents!
Especially if it leads to children and young people getting the services they need.
Especially if it is supported by mental health services, that currently are not in place.

Teens using Police/ Services to Terrorize
This should begin with young people who call in threats to schools, or call in SWATs to peers.
Track them down and file charges.
Their homes should contain no guns. I would add that they should be banned from obtaining a gun without a mental eval For the rest of their lives.

What wasn’t addressed was the ‘boyfriend loophhole’. A young woman dating a violent young man who has suffered DV, should be able to RedFlag him as violent and have his guns taken away. That has not been addressed- and this keeps those young women vulnerable- as per the stats.

Once young people and their parents begin to be held accountable, this madness may stop!

JMO

Red Flag laws don't empower teachers to take away guns from teens. The laws allow families and LE to ask a court to seize the guns because someone is a danger to themselves or others.

 

[AngTxGal]

Red Flag laws don't empower teachers to take away guns from teens. The laws allow families and LE to ask a court to seize the guns because someone is a danger to themselves or others.

Of course, teachers can’t frisk students and go through their backpacks. But… school admin can!

What I meant was teachers could be part of the process, and that is a good thing!

JMO

 

[Laughing]

But by this reasoning those of us in non-weaponised communities (such as Australia) should have seen a rise in mass pencil stabbings or home invasions simply because we no longer have guns to prevent these events. I'm interested in your thoughts on why that wasn't the case?

Maybe in Australia a higher percentage of parents actually still raise their children?

Guide behavior, teach boundaries, hold expectations?

JMHO, perhaps, of course.

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[AngTxGal]

Thing is, they’re often law abiding citizens until one day they’re not.

As for knives - there is no need for anyone on this island to have a machete in this day and age. None whatsoever. Ban them.

If there isn’t a way to predict who will turn from law abiding citizen overnight into a criminal- a murderer…then we are all in danger. It could happen to anyone… not so.

I have no expectation that 100% of all crimes can be prevented.
If that is anyone’s expectation- they aren’t living in reality.
The goal of any civilized society IMO is to reduce crimes using tactics, laws, ordinances, whatever is at our disposal, with a basis in common sense.

Is it a reality that all dangerous weapons could be banned? No.
Humans who intend to harm others can be very creative/ desperate.
let’s just ban it all…
Stabbings- knIves, eating utensils, tent stakes, scalpels, sharp pencils, scissors, sticks
Strangulation- string, rope, cords, cables, zip ties, dental floss, undergarments
Blunt force trauma- hammers, bats, gavels, mallets, firewood, boards, rocks

Yes, it sounds ridiculous IMO.
We do not ban pencils and scissors in schools, we teach kids to not harm one another.
JMO

 

[branmuffin]

RSBM for focus.

Just jumping off your post @AngTxGal because you mentioned raising gun ownership age, but I think it wasn't your main point, so don't feel you need to reply.

Neuroscience now tells us that the brain isn't fully developed until about the age of 25, this refers especially to the pre-frontal cortex where rational decisions are made. Understanding the Teen Brain - Health Encyclopedia - University of Rochester Medical Center

Maturation of the adolescent brain This article explains in a lot of detail about impulsive decision-making among adolescents and that "adolescent" isn't synonymous with "teenager". They don't refer to gun usage, but rather drug usage and other risk-taking behaviours. They also explain that even younger teens are able to make rational decisions in the abstract, but it's in an actual concrete situation especially in the heat of the moment that they lose access to the pre-frontal cortex. (Very simplified explanation - for more detail, read the article.) It's just an added risk having that age group with a weapon in their hand, even though undoubtedly there are very responsible young adults in their early 20's who'd never act on their impulses, lose their head completely and shoot anything that moves or shoot their grumpy neighbour. MOO

So how about raising the age of gun ownership to 25? Except rifles for the rural population. I don't know enough about law-making to suggest how an exception for younger adults could be written into law if it could be proven that they actually need a gun on the ranch or they hunt for their own food. As another poster mentioned further up thread, Canadian laws on gun ownership (and on other things) sometimes have different clauses for the First Nations and Inuit. That could be an issue in the US too, I genuinely don't know. There are possibly other reasons for adults under 25 to have a gun, e.g. employment - that could cover gun on the ranch too and e.g. field geologists. I presume there are different laws in place for young adults in the armed and police forces.

I'm just putting my ideas out there. Somebody else can develop them further, or not as the case may be. Thank you everybody so far for a respectful discussion on this thread.

MOO JMO

I don't think raising the age of gun ownership would go anywhere. The US military takes recruits at the age of 17. It doesn't make any sense to allow a 17 year old to work with a weapon in a military environment but not allow them to use a gun privately. However, that being said you can't vote until you're 18 but you can get drafted at 17. You can get drafted or enter the military at 17 but can't drink alcohol until you're 21. It's kind of all over the map.

Even though I don't understand the fixation with owning numerous weapons I do understand why certain demographics need to have guns, like farmers, ranchers etc. I knew an ornithologist who worked for the Royal Ontario Museum who regularly traveled to the Arctic to study birds. They were allowed to carry handguns and rifles when in the wild to deal with the threat of polar bears, etc. but that was it, they were relinquished on return.

I think the whole issue in the US is the relative ease in which to legally own a weapon regardless of age or circumstance. In Canada we have convenience stores, jewelry stores, pawn shops, liquor stores and any manner of retail that would be a target for criminals but very few businesses have a weapon under the counter which is rife in the US. I just don't think that a convenience store owner in Canada would be willing to shoot some kid stealing cigarettes or soda or whatever.

The problem is no one is a criminal until they are. And that can happen in the blink of an eye in many cases. You can have a family sitting around a dinner table having an argument that gets out of control and if there's a gun handy someone ends up dead. The regret is instantaneous but it's too late. Your dad or your brother or your mom is dead and you're going to jail.

I don't know what the answer is.

 

[AngTxGal]

But by this reasoning those of us in non-weaponised communities (such as Australia) should have seen a rise in mass pencil stabbings or home invasions simply because we no longer have guns to prevent these events. I'm interested in your thoughts on why that wasn't the case?

Your reasoning makes an assumption I don’t make. I have no expectation that what works in one country will work in another. I’m not sure what works in one state or city works in another.

I also didn’t imply having a gun would prevent a home invasion, or a stabbing.
What I did say is people who are hell bent on hurting one another will find a way.
I did say that a person with a gun in their home can protect themselves- yet a person without cannot.

Crimes of passion could very well be reduced by removing weapons from the general vicinity of the person who has lost it.
Premeditated crimes such as school shootings may be prevented by raising the age for gun purchase, red flagging large ammo purchases, and banning assault rifles, also adding a background check, and a 90 day wait period.

I haven’t a clue what lead Australia or any other country to make the choices they made. What I do know is the situation here near me.
Near me there are not thugs. Crime is low
About two hours from me crime is very high- one of the top 10 cities regarding crime in the entire country. Crime is one reason I don’t live there.

JMO

 

[AngTxGal]

I don't think raising the age of gun ownership would go anywhere. The US military takes recruits at the age of 17. It doesn't make any sense to allow a 17 year old to work with a weapon in a military environment but not allow them to use a gun privately. However, that being said you can't vote until you're 18 but you can get drafted at 17. You can get drafted or enter the military at 17 but can't drink until you're 21. It's kind of all over the map.

Even though I don't understand the fixation with owning numerous weapons I do understand why certain demographics need to have guns, like farmers, ranchers etc. I knew an ornithologist who worked for the Royal Ontario Museum who regularly traveled to the Arctic to study birds. They were allowed to carry handguns and rifles when in the wild to deal with the threat of polar bears, etc. but that was it, they were relinquished on return.

I think the whole issue in the US is the relative ease in which to legally own a weapon regardless of age or circumstance. In Canada we have convenience stores, jewelry stores, pawn shops, liquor stores and any manner of retail that would be a target for criminals but very few businesses have a weapon under the counter which is rife in the US. I just don't think that a convenience store owner in Canada would be willing to shoot some kid stealing cigarettes or soda or whatever.

The problem is no one is a criminal until they are. And that can happen in the blink of an eye in many cases. You can have a family sitting around a dinner table having an argument that gets out of control and if there's a gun handy someone ends up dead. The regret is instantaneous but it's too late. Your dad or your brother or your mom is dead and you're going to jail.

I don't know what the answer is.

Agreed, the age of gun ownership will not ever be higher than alcohol or military service.
I’m not saying this because I agree, I’m saying this because that is the argument most often used when this suggestion is brought up.

Some of the fixation, at least in teens and 20’s about guns, has come from video games.
Anyone with a teen son knows first person shooter video games is a huge business, and in those games guns are advertised. My son does not even hunt and yet he can name all kinds of guns he has never even seen, much less touched.

If I were in charge I would sue video games and gun manufacturers for advertising guns in video games where the age includes minors.
I would sue them for enough money to get their attention, and then keep suing until they stopped.

Why? Because people are associating the actions and mentality of boys and men who seem to be immature idiots with responsible gun owners.
Also, these boys and men seem to become desensitized to the violence in video games, and they seek something more satisfying to hunt- real people.
This thinking is very controversial- and I have no article or study to support it. It is simply my opinion having watched my son play video games. He became aggressive in his speech, quick to be impatient, and had trouble snapping out of that state and back into reality.
No, he is not violent. He is a super kid, with the world by the tail, so proud of him. He is 20

JMO

 

[AngTxGal]

I don't think raising the age of gun ownership would go anywhere. The US military takes recruits at the age of 17. It doesn't make any sense to allow a 17 year old to work with a weapon in a military environment but not allow them to use a gun privately. However, that being said you can't vote until you're 18 but you can get drafted at 17. You can get drafted or enter the military at 17 but can't drink alcohol until you're 21. It's kind of all over the map.

Even though I don't understand the fixation with owning numerous weapons I do understand why certain demographics need to have guns, like farmers, ranchers etc. I knew an ornithologist who worked for the Royal Ontario Museum who regularly traveled to the Arctic to study birds. They were allowed to carry handguns and rifles when in the wild to deal with the threat of polar bears, etc. but that was it, they were relinquished on return.

I think the whole issue in the US is the relative ease in which to legally own a weapon regardless of age or circumstance. In Canada we have convenience stores, jewelry stores, pawn shops, liquor stores and any manner of retail that would be a target for criminals but very few businesses have a weapon under the counter which is rife in the US. I just don't think that a convenience store owner in Canada would be willing to shoot some kid stealing cigarettes or soda or whatever.

The problem is no one is a criminal until they are. And that can happen in the blink of an eye in many cases. You can have a family sitting around a dinner table having an argument that gets out of control and if there's a gun handy someone ends up dead. The regret is instantaneous but it's too late. Your dad or your brother or your mom is dead and you're going to jail.

I don't know what the answer is.

I disagree with this part…
The problem is no one is a criminal until they are. And that can happen in the blink of an eye in many cases. You can have a family sitting around a dinner table having an argument that gets out of control and if there's a gun handy someone ends up dead. The regret is instantaneous but it's too late. Your dad or your brother or your mom is dead and you're going to jail.

I’ve lived with guns in my home all my life. I’m one of five children, all of us have guns in our home, my grand parents, cousins, all of us have grown up around guns, shooting guns.
None of us has been injured in any way by a gun, no accidents, and certainly no one has shot anyone out of anger. None of our guns has ever been used on a person.

What is the difference? My opinion only…
1- gun education; 2- alcohol
My parents did not drink alcohol, nor did my grandparents. Two of my four siblings don’t drink, at all. Three of us drink.
I’m guessing normal people turn into criminals more often when they are using alcohol, and guns seem to be a quick anger release.

What is the solution? No clue, it is of course illegal to use guns under the influence of alcohol- so that law doesn't’ prevent this.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

Of course, teachers can’t frisk students and go through their backpacks. But… school admin can!

What I meant was teachers could be part of the process, and that is a good thing!

JMO

Schools and teachers have been part of the process since Columbine.

 

[MyBelle]

I don't think raising the age of gun ownership would go anywhere. The US military takes recruits at the age of 17. It doesn't make any sense to allow a 17 year old to work with a weapon in a military environment but not allow them to use a gun privately. However, that being said you can't vote until you're 18 but you can get drafted at 17. You can get drafted or enter the military at 17 but can't drink alcohol until you're 21. It's kind of all over the map.

Even though I don't understand the fixation with owning numerous weapons I do understand why certain demographics need to have guns, like farmers, ranchers etc. I knew an ornithologist who worked for the Royal Ontario Museum who regularly traveled to the Arctic to study birds. They were allowed to carry handguns and rifles when in the wild to deal with the threat of polar bears, etc. but that was it, they were relinquished on return.

I think the whole issue in the US is the relative ease in which to legally own a weapon regardless of age or circumstance. In Canada we have convenience stores, jewelry stores, pawn shops, liquor stores and any manner of retail that would be a target for criminals but very few businesses have a weapon under the counter which is rife in the US. I just don't think that a convenience store owner in Canada would be willing to shoot some kid stealing cigarettes or soda or whatever.

The problem is no one is a criminal until they are. And that can happen in the blink of an eye in many cases. You can have a family sitting around a dinner table having an argument that gets out of control and if there's a gun handy someone ends up dead. The regret is instantaneous but it's too late. Your dad or your brother or your mom is dead and you're going to jail.

I don't know what the answer is.

BBM Add to that, mental health.

The Uvalde parents are begging the Texas legislature to at least raise the age to 21 for buying an assault rifle. Hopefully, there are legislators who have common sense.

Families of Uvalde victims give emotional testimony for hours on bill to raise assault rifle age limit

House Bill 2744 would raise the age to buy a semi-automatic rifle from 18 to 21. Lawmakers became emotional during the testimony from parents.

www.wfaa.com

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

Kids at a party, and another today at a park. Sick
With that many injuries, this likely was another AR-15.
Unless taken apart in a duffle bag, or under a trench coat, it was not a concealed weapon.

We must do better!

Evidently handguns are the likely culprit in that case. I wonder how they obtained their guns. I’m willing to bet it wasn’t legal.

What laws do you enact to prevent this because I can’t come up with anything. if you’re going to commit a crime you certainly won’t be worried about breaking gun laws. imo

Dadeville shooting injured more people than originally thought, ALEA says: Handguns likely used

Nearly 48 hours after the shooting, few details have been released by the Alabama Law Enforcement Agency.

www.al.com

“Special agents did not recover any high-powered rifle ammunition at the scene; however, they did recover numerous shell casings used in handguns.

Alabama shooting: 3 arrested for violence at birthday party

Alabama police have charged a 16-year-old, a 17-year-old, and a 20-year-old for the shooting at a Sweet 16 birthday party that left 4 dead and dozens injured.

www.fox5atlanta.com

 

[SouthAussie]

Maybe in Australia a higher percentage of parents actually still raise their children?

Guide behavior, teach boundaries, hold expectations?

JMHO, perhaps, of course.

jmho ymmv lrr

In general, we are a society who still care about each other. This was most evident when the pandemic was at its peak. The huge majority of people tried really hard not to harm one another, tried really hard to do what was best for the whole country, often at self sacrifice.

Has the US lost that now? I don't know.

And if it has, how do 'you' get it back?

Because (imo) it is going to take a heck of a lot of caring about each other to do something constructive about the firearms issues.

It can't be "it's not me, it's them. I should be able to have my AR-15 (or whatever), but they shouldn't". Not if success is the goal. imo

What are people prepared to give up for the benefit of the whole nation?

 

[everybodhi]

View attachment 412679

How many US mass shootings have there been in 2024?

Explaining some of the key statistics behind gun ownership and attacks linked to guns in the US.

www.bbc.co.uk

Since this post on April 2, there have been 34 more mass shootings. That’s at minimum 136 more people killed in April, many of them children.
I wonder what the “founding fathers” would think about our current interpretation of a theoretical right to arm every adult in the country while ignoring the “well regulated” part.

Three Alabama teens charged with murder in 'Sweet 16' party shooting

“Mass shootings have become commonplace in the United States, with at least 165 so far in 2023, the most at this point in the year since at least 2016”

 

[everybodhi]

Evidently handguns are the likely culprit in that case. I wonder how they obtained their guns. I’m willing to bet it wasn’t legal.

What laws do you enact to prevent this because I can’t come up with anything. if you’re going to commit a crime you certainly won’t be worried about breaking gun laws. imo

Dadeville shooting injured more people than originally thought, ALEA says: Handguns likely used

Nearly 48 hours after the shooting, few details have been released by the Alabama Law Enforcement Agency.

www.al.com

“Special agents did not recover any high-powered rifle ammunition at the scene; however, they did recover numerous shell casings used in handguns.

Alabama shooting: 3 arrested for violence at birthday party

Alabama police have charged a 16-year-old, a 17-year-old, and a 20-year-old for the shooting at a Sweet 16 birthday party that left 4 dead and dozens injured.

www.fox5atlanta.com

I haven’t read the thread so I don’t know if this has been discussed.
There is no one solution but we have had biometric trigger technology for two decades and it has continued to advance. It’s faster than currently used manual trigger locks, the newer ones work like an iphone fingerprint lock. It can be programmed for multiple people and could also be used on gun safes. Again, faster than a key.
It may not stop all gun deaths by non owners but it could certainly stop a lot of child suicides and murders and toddlers unwittingly shooting themselves or others. And it makes stolen guns virtually useless, also gun grabs from police.
Mandatory gun safes with biometric locks in homes with children is a no brainer, imo.
But these technologies have been strongly protested, boycotted, and death threats issued, because the perception of an inalienable god given right to have no gun regulations has taken precedence over any attempt to preserve human life.
The fear among 2nd Amendment activists is if we are given the choice to buy safer guns, the government will then mandate them.
Smith and Wesson and Colt both stopped their plan to manufacture due to boycott threats.
You can’t buy them in the USA.
That freedom has been taken from us.

Threats to dealer raise doubts about smart guns future
5/3/2014
Andy Raymond, the co-owner of Engage Armament, had decided he would offer the [German] Armatix iP1 smart gun. He was fiercely opposed, he said, to banning the sale of any kind of gun and thought smart guns could expand the market for firearms to buyers concerned about safety.

But after word spread that he would sell the gun, vehement protests emerged online, with people calling him a traitor, a communist and various expletives. The protests were fueled, in part, by gun rights blogs alerting gun owners to Raymond’s plans.

During the blitz of calls and emails, someone told one of Raymond’s workers that the store wouldn’t sell the gun because there wouldn’t be a store; it would be burned down.

At another point, Raymond picked up the phone and said, “Hi, this is Andy. How can I help you?” The caller said, “You’re the guys selling the smart gun?” Raymond tried to reason with him. But the caller said, “You’re gonna get what’s coming to you, (expletive).”

Raymond took that as a death threat. Even his dog, Brutus, did not escape the vitriol.

Raymond was clearly shaken, and late Thursday night, sitting at a table with a bottle of liquor, surrounded by assault rifles and puffing on a cigarette, Raymond recorded a video later posted to Facebook in which he vowed not sell the gun

 

[CoverMeCagney]

If there isn’t a way to predict who will turn from law abiding citizen overnight into a criminal- a murderer…then we are all in danger. It could happen to anyone… not so.

I have no expectation that 100% of all crimes can be prevented.
If that is anyone’s expectation- they aren’t living in reality.
The goal of any civilized society IMO is to reduce crimes using tactics, laws, ordinances, whatever is at our disposal, with a basis in common sense.

Is it a reality that all dangerous weapons could be banned? No.
Humans who intend to harm others can be very creative/ desperate.
let’s just ban it all…
Stabbings- knIves, eating utensils, tent stakes, scalpels, sharp pencils, scissors, sticks
Strangulation- string, rope, cords, cables, zip ties, dental floss, undergarments
Blunt force trauma- hammers, bats, gavels, mallets, firewood, boards, rocks

Yes, it sounds ridiculous IMO.
We do not ban pencils and scissors in schools, we teach kids to not harm one another.
JMO

I guess the question is in a room full of 50 people, how many can you kill or injure in a few minutes with a knife (or dental floss, or a sharp pencil!) compared to how many can be shot at with a gun?

Knife crime is dirty, personalised and utterly sickening, but it’s not leaving multiple innocent people in schools and public places dead every single day. The murder statistics coming out of America are horrific.

 

[AngTxGal]

I guess the question is in a room full of 50 people, how many can you kill or injure in a few minutes with a knife (or dental floss, or a sharp pencil!) compared to how many can be shot at with a gun?

Knife crime is dirty, personalised and utterly sickening, but it’s not leaving multiple innocent people in schools and public places dead every single day. The murder statistics coming out of America are horrific.

Agree, a common sense approach would fly here.
Anything that appears to look like the government must step in and make common sense decisions for adults that they should be able to make for themselves would not work.
Young men shooting people in a school or mall or park or party is clearly not legal, nor is it a normal or based on common sense. To me it is a a symptom of something much larger.
Pretending that controlling dangerous weapons would solve the problem is a lie. It treats the symptoms- not the cause.
Why are people choosing to harm others?

JMO

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Agree, a common sense approach would fly here.
Anything that appears to look like the government must step in and make common sense decisions for adults that they should be able to make for themselves would not work.
Young men shooting people in a school or mall or park or party is clearly not legal, nor is it a normal or based on common sense. To me it is a a symptom of something much larger.
Pretending that controlling dangerous weapons would solve the problem is a lie. It treats the symptoms- not the cause.
Why are people choosing to harm others?

JMO

We have mental health issues all over the world, but guns make it so much easier for the mad / sad / bad to react.

 

[MrsWatson]

Evidently handguns are the likely culprit in that case. I wonder how they obtained their guns. I’m willing to bet it wasn’t legal.

What laws do you enact to prevent this because I can’t come up with anything. if you’re going to commit a crime you certainly won’t be worried about breaking gun laws. imo

Dadeville shooting injured more people than originally thought, ALEA says: Handguns likely used

Nearly 48 hours after the shooting, few details have been released by the Alabama Law Enforcement Agency.

www.al.com

“Special agents did not recover any high-powered rifle ammunition at the scene; however, they did recover numerous shell casings used in handguns.

Alabama shooting: 3 arrested for violence at birthday party

Alabama police have charged a 16-year-old, a 17-year-old, and a 20-year-old for the shooting at a Sweet 16 birthday party that left 4 dead and dozens injured.

www.fox5atlanta.com

BBM

I had linked this information on that thread.

Alabama to allow concealed guns without permit in 2023

Alabama on Jan. 1 will become the latest state to allow people to carry a concealed handgun without getting a state permit that requires a background check

abcnews.go.com

AL does not require licensing your gun in any way. They do not require a waiting period, nor a background check.

Alabama Gun Control Laws - FindLaw

Chart providing details of Alabama Gun Control Laws

www.findlaw.com

ETA: The Find Law link has not updated the Jan 2023 repeal of AL permitting requirements.