General Gun Violence/Gun Control

[SouthAussie]

In my own experience, I don't believe loners or dysfunctional families are in a majority. I do believe one common denominator is poverty. Another is drugs.

I think video games should be more highly regulated with age restrictions. Those "loners" like the Sandy Hook killer, spent way too much time playing violent video games.

Yes, the US public is certainly desensitised to gun violence. All people - everywhere - are desensitised through violent video games. It is just that people in other places do not have easy access to guns.


With regard to dysfunctional families .... "According to recent statistics, 70%-80% of Americans consider their families dysfunctional. It has been proven that family connections are fundamental to our emotional and psychological well-being (Gourani, 2019)".
Moving Past Dysfunctional Families

 

[Betty P]

I think the process is similar to getting an Emergency Order of Protection. It involves an ex-parte hearing before a Judge so police can immediately seize the weapons. A full hearing is held later and the person has to prove their competence to the judge.

So how long would that be from the time the parent/friend/etc calls LE until the gun is removed? A week? More? I'm just factoring in the amount of time it would take to convince someone from LE to believe you, then contact the prosecutor, then get the ex-parte hearing.

 

[MyBelle]

So how long would that be from the time the parent/friend/etc calls LE until the gun is removed? A week? More? I'm just factoring in the amount of time it would take to convince someone from LE to believe you, then contact the prosecutor, then get the ex-parte hearing.

Why would LE not believe a family member?

afaik, prosecutors aren't involved because the purpose of the emergency gun removal is to prevent a possible suicide or crime from happening.

 

[MyBelle]

Yes, the US public is certainly desensitised to gun violence. All people - everywhere - are desensitised through violent video games. It is just that people in other places do not have easy access to guns.


With regard to dysfunctional families .... "According to recent statistics, 70%-80% of Americans consider their families dysfunctional. It has been proven that family connections are fundamental to our emotional and psychological well-being (Gourani, 2019)".
Moving Past Dysfunctional Families

I never play video games so I have no clue as to what kind of violence they reflect.

 

[SouthAussie]

So how long would that be from the time the parent/friend/etc calls LE until the gun is removed? A week? More? I'm just factoring in the amount of time it would take to convince someone from LE to believe you, then contact the prosecutor, then get the ex-parte hearing.

Maybe 10 days? That is from when the ex parte orders are served. I can't find how long it takes to get the ex parte order.


"If someone is served with an ex parte order, time is of the essence. An EPO is usually served with several documents, and includes notice of the date and time for the trial. People are often upset because there is a hearing date of only about ten days from the date they were served"

Ex Parte Orders: When Will I Have My Day in Court? - Amy Edwards Family Law

Ex Parte Orders: When Will I Have My Day in Court? The Courts and due process rights in the United States Constitution are built upon the right of each person to a fair trial. Fundamentally, a person who is served with a lawsuit has the right to respond in writing, by testimony and by evidence …

www.nclawyersforyou.com

 

[MyBelle]

Maybe 10 days? That is from when the ex parte orders are served. I can't find how long it takes to get the ex parte order.


"If someone is served with an ex parte order, time is of the essence. An EPO is usually served with several documents, and includes notice of the date and time for the trial. People are often upset because there is a hearing date of only about ten days from the date they were served"

Ex Parte Orders: When Will I Have My Day in Court? - Amy Edwards Family Law

Ex Parte Orders: When Will I Have My Day in Court? The Courts and due process rights in the United States Constitution are built upon the right of each person to a fair trial. Fundamentally, a person who is served with a lawsuit has the right to respond in writing, by testimony and by evidence …

www.nclawyersforyou.com

I think it follows the same process as getting an Emergency Order of Protection which is usually the same day it is requested

JMO

 

[JennieM]

I never play video games so I have no clue as to what kind of violence they reflect.

This was published April 21.

Most realistic first-person shooter game EVER causes concern — leading some to ask: Is this what America really needs right now?​

Bodycam first-person shooter game Unrecord sparks controversy

Graphics of a new first-person videogame are so realistic and people are in an uproar because they feel it glorifies violence and police brutality in a nation that is plagued with mass shootings.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Laughing]

Why would LE not believe a family member?

afaik, prosecutors aren't involved because the purpose of the emergency gun removal is to prevent a possible suicide or crime from happening.

Who says LE is the problem? The problem with any sort of red-flag program can be the court system.

A 14 year old was in a serious accident & suffered a brain injury. This left the teen with anger problems. The teen was in & out of psychiatric hospitals, and was taking medication.

Dad saw red flags.

This teen's Dad applied for guardianship. The Dad knew that his son needed to take those medications & needed continuing supervision.

The court denied the Dad's petition.

The teen turned 18, signed himself out of Lindbergh High School in suburban St. Louis, and stopped taking those meds.

And this is what happened next:

Teen charged with murder in fatal shooting of St. Louis County police officer

ST. LOUIS, MO (KTVI) – An 18-year-old has been charged in the shooting death of a St. Louis County Police officer. Prosecuting attorney Bob McCulloch has charged Trent Forster with first degr…

fox2now.com

Trent Forster was convicted of first-degree murder.

I doubt that the judge who caused this officer's death is providing support for the family left behind, or for Trent Forster's parents.

Adam Lanza's mother saw red flags and tried to arrange inpatient care for him. Since Adam Lanza was an adult, there was no way for her to do so. We know what happened next.

'The System' has so many failure points.

We have laws in place to prevent most if not all of these tragedies.

How will more laws help???

 

[Betty P]

Why would LE not believe a family member?

afaik, prosecutors aren't involved because the purpose of the emergency gun removal is to prevent a possible suicide or crime from happening.

If prosecutors aren’t involved, who contacts the judge for the hearing? I’m just trying to figure out the organizational chart. All of those steps take time.

I agree in principle to the idea of the red flag type of law, I just think it’s going to be ineffective. Patching together hundreds of little tweaks and mini-regulations hasn’t worked so far. JMO, we need to revert to systemic change. Tighten up access very tight. Severely limit the places and times when people can purchase guns. Ban assault weapons and high capacity magazines. Take money away from states that fail to enforce these laws. Limit places where weapons can be purchased to 1 or 2 per county.

Make guns much harder to get. ETA, sorry if I sound grumpy. The first legislative advocacy I ever did was work on the Brady Bill, back in the early 90’s. I can’t believe how quickly that work was destroyed and how much worse the situation has become.

 

[MyBelle]

Who says LE is the problem? The problem with any sort of red-flag program can be the court system.

A 14 year old was in a serious accident & suffered a brain injury. This left the teen with anger problems. The teen was in & out of psychiatric hospitals, and was taking medication.

Dad saw red flags.

This teen's Dad applied for guardianship. The Dad knew that his son needed to take those medications & needed continuing supervision.

The court denied the Dad's petition.

The teen turned 18, signed himself out of Lindbergh High School in suburban St. Louis, and stopped taking those meds.

And this is what happened next:

Teen charged with murder in fatal shooting of St. Louis County police officer

ST. LOUIS, MO (KTVI) – An 18-year-old has been charged in the shooting death of a St. Louis County Police officer. Prosecuting attorney Bob McCulloch has charged Trent Forster with first degr…

fox2now.com

Trent Forster was convicted of first-degree murder.

I doubt that the judge who caused this officer's death is providing support for the family left behind, or for Trent Forster's parents.

Adam Lanza's mother saw red flags and tried to arrange inpatient care for him. Since Adam Lanza was an adult, there was no way for her to do so. We know what happened next.

'The System' has so many failure points.

We have laws in place to prevent most if not all of these tragedies.

How will more laws help???

I asked the poster why she thought LE would not believe a family member about an unstable family with access to a gun.

I think Domestic Violence calls are some of the most dangerous calls LE respond to.

JMO

 

[Betty P]

I asked the poster why she thought LE would not believe a family member about an unstable family with access to a gun.

I think Domestic Violence calls are some of the most dangerous calls LE respond to.

JMO

To your question, I think people with mental illness can present themselves as normal or eccentric when a cop is questioning them. Unless they’ve already engaged in some threatening behavior that an officer has witnessed, they might not be willing to have a judge declare them mentally ill. That’s a few steps beyond an angry drunk.

 

[al66pine]

FIREARMS "RED FLAG" LAWS
Facts re these laws to counter some misinfo on thread.

There are many variations among ~19 states' "red flag" laws, (aka risk-based gun removal laws, Extreme Risk Protection Orders, ERPOs, etc.) on matters such as ---
- definition of dangerous person, w gun;
- who can initiate the gun removal process;
- whether a warrant is required;
- how soon court must hold hearing;
- what factors the court must consider before ordering firearm removal;
- what must be proven in court;
-how long the seized firearms are held;
- whether in hearing. ct should consider further proceedings on whether dangerous person should be involuntarily detained or committed to medical institution;
- procedure if seized firearm is owned by someone other than "dangerous person," how owner gets gun back;
-what process is used to restore the individual's firearm access.
Plus more tedious details.

Who can initiate? Notwithstanding psych. diagnosis. (New-to-me.)
Four states --- CT, IN, WA, & CA --- “allow clinicians or family members to initiate firearm removal based on dangerousness, regardless of psychiatric diagnosis.” Nov. 2019.
https://focus.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.focus.17403

The wiki sections on "Judicial Review" and "Support and opposition" were interesting, imo.
________________________________________
Red flag law - Wikipedia

 

[MyBelle]

If prosecutors aren’t involved, who contacts the judge for the hearing? I’m just trying to figure out the organizational chart. All of those steps take time.

I agree in principle to the idea of the red flag type of law, I just think it’s going to be ineffective. Patching together hundreds of little tweaks and mini-regulations hasn’t worked so far. JMO, we need to revert to systemic change. Tighten up access very tight. Severely limit the places and times when people can purchase guns. Ban assault weapons and high capacity magazines. Take money away from states that fail to enforce these laws. Limit places where weapons can be purchased to 1 or 2 per county.

Make guns much harder to get. ETA, sorry if I sound grumpy. The first legislative advocacy I ever did was work on the Brady Bill, back in the early 90’s. I can’t believe how quickly that work was destroyed and how much worse the situation has become.

The family files an emergency petition directly with the court. The Judge decides, signs an order and LE executes the order.

Here's how it works in Illinois.

Firearm Restraining Order

www.cookcountysheriff.org

 

[Betty P]

FIREARMS "RED FLAG" LAWS
Facts re these laws to counter misinfo on thread.

There are many variations among ~19 states' "red flag" laws, (aka risk-based gun removal laws, Extreme Risk Protection Orders, ERPOs, etc.) on matters such as ---
- definition of dangerous person, w gun;
- who can initiate the gun removal process;
- whether a warrant is required;
- how soon court must hold hearing;
- what factors the court must consider before ordering firearm removal;
- what must be proven in court;
-how long the seized firearms are held;
- whether in hearing. ct should consider further proceedings on whether dangerous person should be involuntarily detained or committed to medical institution;
- procedure if seized firearm is owned by someone other than "dangerous person," how owner gets gun back;
-what process is used to restore the individual's firearm access.
Plus more tedious details.

Who can initiate? Notwithstanding psych. diagnosis. (New-to-me.)
Four states --- CT, IN, WA, & CA --- “allow clinicians or family members to initiate firearm removal based on dangerousness, regardless of psychiatric diagnosis.” Nov. 2019.
https://focus.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.focus.17403

The wiki sections on "Judicial Review" and "Support and opposition" were interesting, imo.
________________________________________
Red flag law - Wikipedia

Thanks for the link. I really hope these laws work, hopefully someone is gathering and publishing data.

 

[MyBelle]

Thanks for the link. I really hope these laws work, hopefully someone is gathering and publishing data.

The data is clear. They do work. What is baffling to me is why States collect the federal money to enact the laws and then refuse to enact them even though an overwhelming majority of Americans want them.

States took millions to enact red-flag gun laws, but many still won't pass them

A Lee Enterprises review reveals that lawmakers in 31 states have not passed red-flag laws even as most of those states received federal funding through the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act.

www.stltoday.com

 

[Betty P]

The data is clear. They do work. What is baffling to me is why States collect the federal money to enact the laws and then refuse to enact them even though an overwhelming majority of Americans want them.

States took millions to enact red-flag gun laws, but many still won't pass them

A Lee Enterprises review reveals that lawmakers in 31 states have not passed red-flag laws even as most of those states received federal funding through the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act.

www.stltoday.com

States should have to return the money if they don’t enact the laws. just guessing that loophole was put there to get gun nuts to vote for the bills.

 

[MyBelle]

States should have to return the money if they don’t enact the laws. just guessing that loophole was put there to get gun nuts to vote for the bills.

BBM. That's what the story says:

The money was designed to help states create and implement red-flag laws, but congressional Republicans successfully negotiated the elimination of any mandate that the funding be used for that purpose, allowing states without red-flag laws to also spend it on other gun violence reduction programs.

 

[Betty P]

BBM. That's what the story says:

The money was designed to help states create and implement red-flag laws, but congressional Republicans successfully negotiated the elimination of any mandate that the funding be used for that purpose, allowing states without red-flag laws to also spend it on other gun violence reduction programs.

Yep. It’s a typical scam. Similar to passing a new law, but not appropriating funds to enforce it. Another is passing a new regulation or law, but not providing for a penalty if the regulation is ignored.

You have to read the actual bill, in its final form. It’s frustrating.

 

[everybodhi]

BBM. Friends and family are usually in a position to recognize troubling behavior and to ask a Judge to intervene.

JMO

Yes, agreed. In a functional family, and for people who have good friends. Lets hope they would do the right thing and report their loved one.
Which still leaves a lot of loners, and a lot of dysfunctional families and friends.

What can be done to include the outliers? Which may be a quiet majority.

I definitely support Red Flag laws. Just trying to consider other means of tamping down the gun violence (as well).

One thought could be to put a freeze on gun production. Meaning guns for public consumption. Hit the problem right at the source. How many guns does a public need? The guns in circulation can be resold as 2nd-hand items, it is not as though they ever perish and become useless. That would likely spur a thriving 2nd-hand market.

Sometimes the family members of a mentally ill person own guns and strongly advocate for them, creating a conflict that may work against deterrence.
Like in the case of the recent mass shooting in Maine.
The perp was not permitted to live where there are guns due to felony convictions, not due to a red flag order, however, his years of mental illness and court ordered therapy is well documented.
Guns were found “strewn throughout the house” where the bodies of his parents and their friends, (and their dog), were found. The parent’s friends had generously allowed Eaton to live in their home upon prison release.
I don’t know where the numerous guns at the murder scene came from, maybe he collected them somehow in the 4 days after his release from prison, but if they belonged to any of the victims, it wouldn’t be the first time gun advocates were killed by their own firearms by a family member with a known mental illness.
Adam Lanza (Sandy Hook), is another example of a mass shooter with mental illness using guns he obtained from his gun enthusiast parent who was murdered by her own gun.

Court documents describe grisly discovery in Maine shootings

In 2013, Eaton hoped to serve out his probation at his parents’ home in Florida. While he was granted probation, he was unable to move in with his parents because his father, David Eaton, refused to give up his firearms. Federal law prohibits a convicted felon from living in a home with a gun.

Adam Lanza’s Mother Was a Gun Enthusiast, Friends Say

 

[MyBelle]

Sometimes the family members of a mentally ill person own guns and strongly advocate for them, creating a conflict that may work against deterrence.
Like in the case of the recent mass shooting in Maine.
The perp was not permitted to live where there are guns due to felony convictions, not due to a red flag order, however, his years of mental illness and court ordered therapy is well documented.
Guns were found “strewn throughout the house” where the bodies of his parents and their friends, (and their dog), were found.
I don’t know where the numerous guns at the murder scene came from, maybe he collected them somehow in the 4 days after his release from prison, but if they belonged to any of the victims, it wouldn’t be the first time people were killed by their own firearms by a family member with a known mental illness.
Adam Lanza (Sandy Hook), is another example of a mass shooter with mental illness using guns he obtained from his gun enthusiast parent who was murdered by her own gun.

Court documents describe grisly discovery in Maine shootings

In 2013, Eaton hoped to serve out his probation at his parents’ home in Florida. While he was granted probation, he was unable to move in with his parents because his father, David Eaton, refused to give up his firearms. Federal law prohibits a convicted felon from living in a home with a gun.

Adam Lanza’s Mother Was a Gun Enthusiast, Friends Say

I truly don't understand why his parents reached out to the Court to ask that he be able to serve his probation in Florida and then the father refused to rid his house of guns. That certainly could result in deep resentment. Add drugs and mental health to the mix and a disaster is bound to happen. smh.