General Gun Violence/Gun Control

[PrairieWind]

We’re very ethnically & culturally diverse.

Your quote:


We’re a mosaic of people yet the majority of us agree about firearms.

“Registration of all firearms is supported by 85% of Canadians, while 14% are opposed. According to this poll, support has increased since 1995 when the debate over Bill C-68 was in progress. Support for legislation preventing civilians from owning handguns is also strong among Canadians, with a majority of 67%.”

Public Awareness and Perceptions of Law Reform Initiatives - Public Perception of Crime and Justice in Canada: A Review of Opinion Polls

This study examines public perceptions of the criminal justice system (CJS) with respect to perceptions of crime versus actual crime rates and confidence in the system. Findings suggest that public perception of crime is unrelated to actual crime rates and that confidence in the CJS is low...

www.justice.gc.ca

Handguns have been banned since that poll.

I don't believe handguns are banned in Canada.
But regardless, gun crime in Toronto for example has risen, why? And regardless of "gun" crime, why is violent crime rising? Why? There is a lot of finger pointing about guns, but the question of why people are restoring to violence is not being answered.

 

[PrairieWind]

The media are reporting it. The peaceful protests for gun control have made national news. It's difficult to get something done when one of the two major political parties are anti-gun control. There is an incredible absence of common sense.

Look at TN and the recent, horrific school shooting by a mentally unstable woman. The Governor now wants to pass a Red Flag law but he's getting opposition from members of his own party.

MSN

I think my point was missed. Or maybe reinforced by your post. There is no "common sense" gun control effort proposed.

 

[MyBelle]

I think my point was missed. Or maybe reinforced by your post. There is no "common sense" gun control effort proposed.

I think Red Flag laws are totally based on common sense and that's why they are being passed by legislators with common sense. Mentally ill people should not have access to any firearms.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I don't believe handguns are banned in Canada.
But regardless, gun crime in Toronto for example has risen, why? And regardless of "gun" crime, why is violent crime rising? Why? There is a lot of finger pointing about guns, but the question of why people are restoring to violence is not being answered.

You’re right, I misstated it and corrected my post. It’s a handgun freeze:

“The Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, today announced the national freeze on the sale, purchase, and transfer of handguns comes into effect. From now on, people cannot buy, sell, or transfer handguns within Canada, and they cannot bring newly acquired handguns into the country.”

Freezing the market on handguns

Fewer guns mean safer communities. That’s why the Government of Canada is implementing some of the strongest gun control measures in a generation.

pm.gc.ca

I’m not living in Toronto right now, and I’m surprised by the rise in violence. I worked in a healthcare clinic in a poor/high density area where a young man was shot and killed outside our doors and it was related to gangs and drugs. The other clinics I worked at were in wealthy areas and it was like I was on another planet.

My guess right now is with economic hardship the crime rates go up. I’m not sure. But obviously the answer is not just to take firearms away, but look at the underlying reasons they’re being used to intimidate and kill.

 

[seasideForest]

So what's the difference between the Swiss and the Americans in relation to gun violence?

The Swiss have widespread gun ownership and also gun education. They seem to pride themselves in personal responsibility and also accountability.
Their culture and ethnicity is quite homogenous- their diversity is very low. My guess is it is easy much easier to agree when values, religion, morals, ethnicity, culture, and even genetics is historically similar.
My kids attended a school where seven languages were spoken in the homes of their classmates. The holiday celebration includes five religions.

Saying not everything works everywhere certainly doesn’t mean there is nothing that can’t be learned or couldn’t work everywhere.
In the US the federal government is limited in power. Much of the power goes to the state government, for the purpose of representing the people of the geographic area more closely. The needs of Montana and Florida are hugely different.
Why not lump all of Europe together and force them to agree on a set of laws that work for all of them- after all their land is connected. Doing so would be a challenge- that is why in the US it is a challenge.

JMO

I wonder - have you lived outside Texas? Have you lived outside the US?

It's always easy to speak about a culture you don't really know and say it's homogenous.

I've lived in 5 different countries, 3 of those for a significant amount of time. A lot of what you say about the US are things I could say about some of those 5 countries. @Lexiintoronto has spoken for Canada, my other 4 countries are all in Europe. Switzerland is not one of them, but I do know that Switzerland has 26 cantons, 4 different official languages, including 3 within one canton, (unofficial languages are spoken too e.g. Switzerland has its share of refugees and migrant labour who bring their own languages MOO) and a lot of government at the local level, which is partly why I used it as an example. It may all look very homogenous to you, but I can tell you that Europeans who haven't looked into it in any detail think the US is pretty homogenous. You may speak different languages at home, but at school, in research, at colleges, in government - it's all English. MOO. Sure, you can probably find some exceptions for me, some places where it's Spanish or a Native American language. Note, I'm not saying the US is totally homogenous. And you can find exceptions in European countries too e.g. in one of the Länder in Northern Germany Danish has some amount of official status.

Why not lump all Europe together? Maybe because it's half the continent of Eurasia and not one country? According to the following link there are about 50 countries in Europe. In the EU alone there are 24 official languages. https://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/european_languages.htm IMHO 2 neighbouring countries in Europe e.g. France and Germany are going to be more different than say North and South Dakota. Even countries like Norway and Sweden (both Scandinavian with similar languages and afaik interconnected history) are going to be more different than North and South Dakota. MOO JMO.

However, we could go on like this for hours and days, beating about the bush, forgetting that this thread is actually about gun laws and gun violence. It seems IMO you're not interested in the comparisons I'm making with other countries? IMO. So I don't think it makes any sense for us two to discuss this topic with each other any more.

I'm certainly interested in what other members might have to say on this thread, especially those from other areas of the US, who may have a different perspective.

All MOO

 

[PrairieWind]

I wonder - have you lived outside Texas? Have you lived outside the US?

It's always easy to speak about a culture you don't really know and say it's homogenous.

I've lived in 5 different countries, 3 of those for a significant amount of time. A lot of what you say about the US are things I could say about some of those 5 countries. @Lexiintoronto has spoken for Canada, my other 4 countries are all in Europe. Switzerland is not one of them, but I do know that Switzerland has 26 cantons, 4 different official languages, including 3 within one canton, (unofficial languages are spoken too e.g. Switzerland has its share of refugees and migrant labour who bring their own languages MOO) and a lot of government at the local level, which is partly why I used it as an example. It may all look very homogenous to you, but I can tell you that Europeans who haven't looked into it in any detail think the US is pretty homogenous. You may speak different languages at home, but at school, in research, at colleges, in government - it's all English. MOO. Sure, you can probably find some exceptions for me, some places where it's Spanish or a Native American language. Note, I'm not saying the US is totally homogenous. And you can find exceptions in European countries too e.g. in one of the Länder in Northern Germany Danish has some amount of official status.

Why not lump all Europe together? Maybe because it's half the continent of Eurasia and not one country? According to the following link there are about 50 countries in Europe. In the EU alone there are 24 official languages. https://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/european_languages.htm IMHO 2 neighbouring countries in Europe e.g. France and Germany are going to be more different than say North and South Dakota. Even countries like Norway and Sweden (both Scandinavian with similar languages and afaik interconnected history) are going to be more different than North and South Dakota. MOO JMO.

However, we could go on like this for hours and days, beating about the bush, forgetting that this thread is actually about gun laws and gun violence. It seems IMO you're not interested in the comparisons I'm making with other countries? IMO. So I don't think it makes any sense for us two to discuss this topic with each other any more.

I'm certainly interested in what other members might have to say on this thread, especially those from other areas of the US, who may have a different perspective.

All MOO

I'm not sure where you were going with this, but I tend to agree with AngTxGal in regards to her point. Maybe I'm not following where you were going with your post.

 

[seasideForest]

Well, we had the shooting in Vancouver yesterday ( a miracle that wasn't a blood bath). Today two strangers in Toronto argue over a parking place, one is brutally stabbed. Why are people soooo willing to resort to violence for everything?

We did, yes, or rather you did.
I don't know why there seems to be so much violence world-wide atm. Aside from wars, a problem we won't get into on this thread, it's like people are going crazy! What is wrong with people? Even in countries where there isn't that much gun violence, they're resorting to knives instead. Like in Germany where I live, knife crime seems to be on the rise IMO, e.g. in the train in Brokstedt (that example is on WS, which is why I mention it.) and recently a 12yo girl stabbed by two other 12yo girls, which is a jaw-dropping level of violence for here. Schoolgirls who confessed to murdering friend (12) in Germany placed in care

It seems to me that the number of shooting incidents coming out of the US this year is a deeper shade of crazy than in Canada or Europe and Australia, New Zealand etc, especially in the last couple of weeks where it seemed to be daily. Shooting a 6yo whose ball landed on a neighbour's property is a new level of craziness. IMO

 

[SouthAussie]

I think my point was missed. Or maybe reinforced by your post. There is no "common sense" gun control effort proposed.

Any time anyone suggests a common sense gun control effort, it is shot down (pardon the pun).

What is a common sense gun control effort?

It seems that what is common sense to some of us is not common sense to others.

Maybe that is what the biggest issue is? Finding compromise.
I don't mean compromise between us on the thread, I mean compromise among the US people and law makers.

 

[MyBelle]

I wonder - have you lived outside Texas? Have you lived outside the US?

It's always easy to speak about a culture you don't really know and say it's homogenous.

I've lived in 5 different countries, 3 of those for a significant amount of time. A lot of what you say about the US are things I could say about some of those 5 countries. @Lexiintoronto has spoken for Canada, my other 4 countries are all in Europe. Switzerland is not one of them, but I do know that Switzerland has 26 cantons, 4 different official languages, including 3 within one canton, (unofficial languages are spoken too e.g. Switzerland has its share of refugees and migrant labour who bring their own languages MOO) and a lot of government at the local level, which is partly why I used it as an example. It may all look very homogenous to you, but I can tell you that Europeans who haven't looked into it in any detail think the US is pretty homogenous. You may speak different languages at home, but at school, in research, at colleges, in government - it's all English. MOO. Sure, you can probably find some exceptions for me, some places where it's Spanish or a Native American language. Note, I'm not saying the US is totally homogenous. And you can find exceptions in European countries too e.g. in one of the Länder in Northern Germany Danish has some amount of official status.

Why not lump all Europe together? Maybe because it's half the continent of Eurasia and not one country? According to the following link there are about 50 countries in Europe. In the EU alone there are 24 official languages. https://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/european_languages.htm IMHO 2 neighbouring countries in Europe e.g. France and Germany are going to be more different than say North and South Dakota. Even countries like Norway and Sweden (both Scandinavian with similar languages and afaik interconnected history) are going to be more different than North and South Dakota. MOO JMO.

However, we could go on like this for hours and days, beating about the bush, forgetting that this thread is actually about gun laws and gun violence. It seems IMO you're not interested in the comparisons I'm making with other countries? IMO. So I don't think it makes any sense for us two to discuss this topic with each other any more.

I'm certainly interested in what other members might have to say on this thread, especially those from other areas of the US, who may have a different perspective.

All MOO

I'm curious about the poverty rate in countries of Europe. In the U.S., especially in large cities, the poverty rate is very high and it seems to go hand-in-hand with gun violence.

 

[seasideForest]

I'm curious about the poverty rate in countries of Europe. In the U.S., especially in large cities, the poverty rate is very high and it seems to go hand-in-hand with gun violence.

That's an interesting point. I will leave you to research various European countries - there are a lot. Poverty seems to be on the increase in the UK and knife crime - stabbings - seems to be on the rise there. There could be a connection. MOO. It's not so easy to get hold of a gun in the UK, so people go for knives instead as far as I can tell.

 

[angelainwi]

I read about this one, shocking and yet understandable.
It was late at night, the 85 yr old man was asleep and awoke to someone knocking on his door. He assumed the young man was up to no good and was afraid.
In understanding am I saying he was justified? Of course not.
My dad is that same age. If someone was banging on the door late at night, he would assume they were up to no good, especially if he did not answer and the knock was persistent. The teen being black would not help.
There are groups of kids that case houses, check to see if people are home, when no one answers they break in. Some have parties when people are out of town, steal from them, and wreck the inside. We’ve all heard the stories
My dad would have wondered, but he would call 911.

I cannot imagine why this man choose to shoot, it reeks of someone who is mentally unstable- or dementia?

JMO

"The teen being black would not help." I do not understand why the teen being black would not help?

 

[MyBelle]

Any time anyone suggests a common sense gun control effort, it is shot down (pardon the pun).

What is a common sense gun control effort?

It seems that what is common sense to some of us is not common sense to others.

Maybe that is what the biggest issue is? Finding compromise.
I don't mean compromise between us on the thread, I mean compromise among the US people and law makers.

BBM. It is always shot down by the NRA and the politicians who take their money. I am hoping times are a'changin'!

When it comes to public safety--and that of our children--American voters are not going to compromise. That's why Red Flag laws are being adopted. Anyone who thinks mentally ill people should have guns and amo nearby lacks common sense.

Minnesota’s physicians call for common sense gun laws - MinnPost

Children are dying in places meant to care and nurture them, lockdown drills are an accepted reality, and mass shootings are so common as to risk inducing numbness.

www.minnpost.com

 

[al66pine]

Firearm Registration. US State Statutes.

...But, your firearms aren’t registered? Isn’t that a requirement? ...

snipped for focus. @Lexiintoronto Just wandered into this thread. Sorry if already answered. Trying to stay out of the line of fire (see what I did there? LOL) & just providing info on our laws, not opinions on firearms issues.

Briefly, registration is not a requirement in all states.
Since ^ post poses question to @AngTxGal, let's check a summary table of Texas gun law.* Nope, TX does not require firearm registration for either long guns or handguns.

This summary table addresses the issues below & more.
State permit required to purchase?
Assault weapon law?
Magazine capacity restriction?
Owner license required?
Permit required for concealed carry?
Permit required for open carry?
Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground law?
Red flag law?
Also cites statute and/or provides links.

Anyone interested in a particular state's gun laws can search
"wiki gun laws in ____" for similar straightforward table.

The VERY CURIOUS can scroll thru maps & these tables for all states, at one wiki link.**

______________________________
* Gun laws in Texas - Wikipedia
**Gun laws in the United States by state - Wikipedia

 

[seasideForest]

I'm not sure where you were going with this, but I tend to agree with AngTxGal in regards to her point. Maybe I'm not following where you were going with your post.

Which point of AngTxGal's do you agree with?

 

[SouthAussie]

BBM. It is always shot down by the NRA and the politicians who take their money. I am hoping times are a'changin'!

When it comes to public safety--and that of our children--American voters are not going to compromise. That's why Red Flag laws are being adopted. Anyone who thinks mentally ill people should have guns and amo nearby lacks common sense.

Minnesota’s physicians call for common sense gun laws - MinnPost

Children are dying in places meant to care and nurture them, lockdown drills are an accepted reality, and mass shootings are so common as to risk inducing numbness.

www.minnpost.com

I was researching mental health in the US. It seems that these are the current stats.


Mental illnesses are among the most common health conditions in the United States.

• More than 50% will be diagnosed with a mental illness or disorder at some point in their lifetime.
• 1 in 5 Americans will experience a mental illness in a given year.
• 1 in 5 children, either currently or at some point during their life, have had a seriously debilitating mental illness.
• 1 in 25 Americans lives with a serious mental illness, such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, or major depression.

CDC Mental Health


That is a LOT of people with mental health issues. Some of them may be dangerous from time to time (to themselves and/or others), some of them may not. I am not sure how to properly distinguish who will be/is dangerous, and who is not.

That is not to say that Red Flag laws do not work, I think they are a good and positive step forward.
But Red Flag laws cannot be the only measure taken. Because many people might fall through the cracks, considering the way mental health issues can come and go.

 

[MyBelle]

I was researching mental health in the US. It seems that these are the current stats.


Mental illnesses are among the most common health conditions in the United States.

• More than 50% will be diagnosed with a mental illness or disorder at some point in their lifetime.
• 1 in 5 Americans will experience a mental illness in a given year.
• 1 in 5 children, either currently or at some point during their life, have had a seriously debilitating mental illness.
• 1 in 25 Americans lives with a serious mental illness, such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, or major depression.

CDC Mental Health


That is a LOT of people with mental health issues. Some of them may be dangerous from time to time (to themselves and/or others), some of them may not. I am not sure how to properly distinguish who will be/is dangerous, and who is not.

That is not to say that Red Flag laws do not work, I think they are a good and positive step forward.
But Red Flag laws cannot be the only measure taken. Because many people might fall through the cracks, considering the way mental health issues can come and go.

BBM. Friends and family are usually in a position to recognize troubling behavior and to ask a Judge to intervene.

JMO

 

[SouthAussie]

BBM. Friends and family are usually in a position to recognize troubling behavior and to ask a Judge to intervene.

JMO

Yes, agreed. In a functional family, and for people who have good friends. Lets hope they would do the right thing and report their loved one.
Which still leaves a lot of loners, and a lot of dysfunctional families and friends.

What can be done to include the outliers? Which may be a quiet majority.

I definitely support Red Flag laws. Just trying to consider other means of tamping down the gun violence (as well).

One thought could be to put a freeze on gun production. Meaning guns for public consumption. Hit the problem right at the source. How many guns does a public need? The guns in circulation can be resold as 2nd-hand items, it is not as though they ever perish and become useless. That would likely spur a thriving 2nd-hand market.

 

[Betty P]

BBM. Friends and family are usually in a position to recognize troubling behavior and to ask a Judge to intervene.

JMO

Timing can be a problem in these cases, though. IIRC, the process for petitioning to have a weapon removed from a mentally ill person is quite lengthy. There has to be a better way. Long waiting periods, requiring a license to buy a gun, etc. JMO, it's the gun lobby who likes to steer everyone out into the policy weeds looking for solutions. The farther you go, the less effective the end result. JMO

If it were up to me, I would ban all of them, but that's just me.

 

[MyBelle]

Yes, agreed. In a functional family, and for people who have good friends. Lets hope they would do the right thing and report their loved one.
Which still leaves a lot of loners, and a lot of dysfunctional families and friends.

What can be done to include the outliers? Which may be a quiet majority.

I definitely support Red Flag laws. Just trying to consider other means of tamping down the gun violence (as well).

One thought could be to put a freeze on gun production. Meaning guns for public consumption. Hit the problem right at the source. How many guns does a public need? The guns in circulation can be resold as 2nd-hand items, it is not as though they ever perish and become useless. That would likely spur a thriving 2nd-hand market.

In my own experience, I don't believe loners or dysfunctional families are in a majority. I do believe one common denominator is poverty. Another is drugs.

I think video games should be more highly regulated with age restrictions. Those "loners" like the Sandy Hook killer, spent way too much time playing violent video games.

 

[MyBelle]

Timing can be a problem in these cases, though. IIRC, the process for petitioning to have a weapon removed from a mentally ill person is quite lengthy. There has to be a better way. Long waiting periods, requiring a license to buy a gun, etc. JMO, it's the gun lobby who likes to steer everyone out into the policy weeds looking for solutions. The farther you go, the less effective the end result. JMO

If it were up to me, I would ban all of them, but that's just me.

I think the process is similar to getting an Emergency Order of Protection. It involves an ex-parte hearing before a Judge so police can immediately seize the weapons. A full hearing is held later and the person has to prove their competence to the judge.