General Gun Violence/Gun Control

[AngTxGal]

I am a DV survivor. I will NEVER own a gun. I know that there is a much larger chance of it being used against me than me using it to defend myself. Furthermore, I am not willing to take someone's life. My broken bones and other injuries can heal, killing someone is not something that I would be able to heal after. To me killing someone is never the answer to any problem.

Good for you, I’ve never had a guy raise his hand with that level of violence. Still it does not logically follow that what works for you should therefore be the choice for all women.
Some women shot their attackers and saved their own lives and those of their children.
Cops use deadly force every day to protect the lives of others.
It should not be an easy choice, but I would never judge someone suffering from violence who fears for their life or fears for the life of others.

JMO

 

[Lexiintoronto]

So what's the difference between the Swiss and the Americans in relation to gun violence?

The Swiss have widespread gun ownership and also gun education. They seem to pride themselves in personal responsibility and also accountability.
Their culture and ethnicity is quite homogenous- their diversity is very low. My guess is it is easy much easier to agree when values, religion, morals, ethnicity, culture, and even genetics is historically similar.
My kids attended a school where seven languages were spoken in the homes of their classmates. The holiday celebration includes five religions.

Saying not everything works everywhere certainly doesn’t mean there is nothing that can’t be learned or couldn’t work everywhere.
In the US the federal government is limited in power. Much of the power goes to the state government, for the purpose of representing the people of the geographic area more closely. The needs of Montana and Florida are hugely different.
Why not lump all of Europe together and force them to agree on a set of laws that work for all of them- after all their land is connected. Doing so would be a challenge- that is why in the US it is a challenge.

JMO

How about Canada. We’re a stir fry of many cultures.

 

[AngTxGal]

If a person is mentally un

Red Flag laws do work and with the increase in mass shootings, more states are enacting them:

What are red flag laws? How can they tackle gun violence?

Michigan is now one of 20 states to have red flag laws -- but what exactly does that mean?

www.clickondetroit.com

If a person is mentally unstable and has a gun,
And someone petitions to take that gun away…

If it is a DV situation- I would expect it to escalate, they will act faster.
They will figure out or assume who petitioned saying they were dangerous.
They will escalate the violence and act before due process can take place.
That is why women who act to leave a violent partner are most at risk for violence when they begin to leave.

I would be curious to look at the details of the mass shootings and see if RedFlags would have alerted someone to prevent the shooting.
- In Uvalde he was living with his grandparents, his grandfather did not know he had a gun. He shot his grandmother in the face. Was there anyone who knew he was unhinged?
- In Oakland no one knew he had the gun except the parents, they bought it for him because he was too young. The process of identifying him as threatening was just beginning- with the school counselor.
- In Highland Park- the father helped him get the gun. I do not know if someone near him knew he was unhinged.

I will be curious to see what happens with Red Flag laws- as the hands of justice move at the speed of cold molasses- I’m doubtful.

JMO

 

[everybodhi]

She was beaten by a sledgehammer… and he is on the run for attempted murder.
Exactly how does reasonable and problem solving belong in a sentence with that situation?
If it is my daughter, yes, I would advise her to blow him away. At least she could be tried by a jury of her peers, who would set her free, instead of dead.
If you are surprised I agree with meeting deadly force with deadly force, yu don’t know much about self defense.

What ‘reasonable’ problem solving skills do you suggest in this situation? Therapy?

I’m not surprised by your beliefs at all, I was born in the south and have many friends and relatives there.
Thanks for asking my suggestions.
It appears she left the situation and I wouldn’t minimize the effects of therapy for trauma.
I would also suggest letting your daughter know being set free is hardly guaranteed, the statistics are against her. And any felony on her record would diminish her opportunities, like teaching, or voting. She should know the risk of blowing someone away, especially a partner or husband, not to mention the long term psychological effects of killing someone in a relationship.

Brittany Smith released from Alabama state prison, her supporters are still puzzled by her conviction

In court filings, Smith described days of torment. She testified that Todd chased her to her own bedroom and threatened to kill her. She later woke up naked in her own urine.
She said Todd tried to "break her neck off the side of the bed because she tried to fight him."
They later ended up on the floor and she said he strangled her until she was unconscious.
She accused Todd of raping her several times.
She told police how they later went to a gas station, when she wrote a note with Todd's name on it and gave it to the clerk.
"If I'm dead in the morning, this is who did it," she told the clerk.

Smith tried to assert what's called a stand your ground defense
But a judge denied her defense.

Smith later took a plea deal and was sentenced to 20 years in state prison

"If you can't use it in her case, I don't know what case you can use it in," said Rachel Louise Snyder

In her research, Louise Snyder found as many as 90% of woman serving time for murder were convicted of killing people they accused of domestic violence and sexual assault.

At the time of her arrest, Alabama had never allowed a single woman to use stand your ground in her own defense

Netflix documentary focuses on Brittany Smith, an Alabama woman who killed man she said raped her

Remkus says in the Netflix trailer that the case asked the question, “Are women able to use the system to defend themselves in the way that men are?”

Two Women Shoot and Kill Their Abusers Claiming Self-Defense. They Face Decades in Prison. | The Takeaway | WNYC Studios

Nicole Addimando faced horrific physical and sexual abuse by her husband for years, and in 2017 shot and killed him on their couch after she says he threatened her with the gun.
She was convicted of second-degree murder and second-degree criminal possession of a handgun for the shooting death in Poughkeepsie, New York.
A new 2019 law in the state did make her eligible to have her sentence reduced as a victim of domestic violence.
But a judge ruled in February 2020 that she didn’t meet the requirements for a reduced sentence, saying she had opportunities to leave her abuser.
She was given 19 years to life in prison.

Women Serve Longer Prison Sentences After Killing Abusers

According to statistics women who kill their partners will spend an average of 15 years behind bars, while men who kill their female partners serve much shorter sentences, on average between 2 to 6 years.
While most would agree homicide dictates a sizable prison stint, the question is, why are women being punished so much more harshly, especially when you consider this statistic: At least 90 percent of women in prison for killing men report having been abused by those men?

https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/documentaries/true-crime/state-alabama-brittany-smith-true-story/

​

 

[AngTxGal]

How about Canada. We’re a stir fry of many cultures.

You tell me, I’m not Canadian.
I’m guessing regarding the Swiss.
I do know that these things impact gun violence.
- alcohol or other substances
- age and gender- Most all offenders are males teen to 40 yrs
- guns used are mostly owned by the offender or someone in the family

JMO

 

[SouthAussie]

Switzerland has a stunningly high rate of gun ownership — here's why it doesn't have mass shootings

RSBM

However, it probably should be noted, that "Switzerland is no panacea of peaceful gun possession, with the highest rates of gun violence in Europe".

What can the Swiss teach the US about guns?

In the wake of another school shooting, a former police officer and Zurich resident argues that it’s time for the US to follow the Swiss example.

www.swissinfo.ch

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Gandhi’s quote is about revenge, not about a smaller person defending themselves against a larger person who is using deadly force.

Save that quote for a DV Survivor’s meeting. Women who have lived to tell are quite ready for someone who hasn’t experienced DV to tell them what they should have done differently.

IMO

You look for signs of abuse that are escalating and learn how to safely de-escalate, defend yourself or leave the safest way possible. No blowing away needed, with few exceptions where it’s with you or him that survives.

The quote is about reciprocal justice. I didn’t inflict similar injuries on my attacker when I had the chance. I opted to flee and barricade myself. The only thing I wanted was safety and the courts helped with that.

 

[AngTxGal]

I’m not surprised by your beliefs at all, I was born in the south and have many friends and relatives there.
Thanks for asking my suggestions.
It appears she left the situation and I wouldn’t minimize the effects of therapy for trauma.
I would also suggest letting your daughter know being set free is hardly guaranteed, the statistics are against her. And any felony on her record would diminish her opportunities, like teaching, or voting. She should know the risk of blowing someone away, especially a partner or husband, not to mention the long term psychological effects of killing someone in a relationship.

Brittany Smith released from Alabama state prison, her supporters are still puzzled by her conviction

In court filings, Smith described days of torment. She testified that Todd chased her to her own bedroom and threatened to kill her. She later woke up naked in her own urine.
She said Todd tried to "break her neck off the side of the bed because she tried to fight him."
They later ended up on the floor and she said he strangled her until she was unconscious.
She accused Todd of raping her several times.
She told police how they later went to a gas station, when she wrote a note with Todd's name on it and gave it to the clerk.
"If I'm dead in the morning, this is who did it," she told the clerk.

Smith tried to assert what's called a stand your ground defense
But a judge denied her defense.

Smith later took a plea deal and was sentenced to 20 years in state prison

"If you can't use it in her case, I don't know what case you can use it in," said Rachel Louise Snyder

In her research, Louise Snyder found as many as 90% of woman serving time for murder were convicted of killing people they accused of domestic violence and sexual assault.

At the time of her arrest, Alabama had never allowed a single woman to use stand your ground in her own defense

Netflix documentary focuses on Brittany Smith, an Alabama woman who killed man she said raped her

Remkus says in the Netflix trailer that the case asked the question, “Are women able to use the system to defend themselves in the way that men are?”

Two Women Shoot and Kill Their Abusers Claiming Self-Defense. They Face Decades in Prison. | The Takeaway | WNYC Studios

Nicole Addimando faced horrific physical and sexual abuse by her husband for years, and in 2017 shot and killed him on their couch after she says he threatened her with the gun.
She was convicted of second-degree murder and second-degree criminal possession of a handgun for the shooting death in Poughkeepsie, New York.
A new 2019 law in the state did make her eligible to have her sentence reduced as a victim of domestic violence.
But a judge ruled in February 2020 that she didn’t meet the requirements for a reduced sentence, saying she had opportunities to leave her abuser.
She was given 19 years to life in prison.

Women Serve Longer Prison Sentences After Killing Abusers

According to statistics women who kill their partners will spend an average of 15 years behind bars, while men who kill their female partners serve much shorter sentences, on average between 2 to 6 years.
While most would agree homicide dictates a sizable prison stint, the question is, why are women being punished so much more harshly, especially when you consider this statistic: At least 90 percent of women in prison for killing men report having been abused by those men?

Where is Brittany Smith now? Alabama vs Brittany Smith true story | Radio Times

​

My daughter is 19, let’s just pray she does not become a victim.
It is sickening to imagine what some women suffer.
I would assume such DV situations begin with verbal abuse and then become worse, and that there are signs.
Putting myself in another woman’s shoes would be to say I could see the signs. If there are signs, why would anyone in those shoes not see them too?
Maybe self worth has something to do with it? I honestly do not know.
I do know the stats are 1 of 3 women in Texas are DV victims.
In Oklahoma it is 49%.
Another reason not to move to OK.

JMO

 

[angelainwi]

Good for you, I’ve never had a guy raise his hand with that level of violence. Still it does not logically follow that what works for you should therefore be the choice for all women.
Some women shot their attackers and saved their own lives and those of their children.
Cops use deadly force every day to protect the lives of others.
It should not be an easy choice, but I would never judge someone suffering from violence who fears for their life or fears for the life of others.

JMO

I am definitely not judging anyone with my post. I was just replying that for me blowing away my abuser was not an option that I would ever choose. I was able to save my life and those of my children without having to kill someone. And I definitely would not shoot my children's father. I would not risk that pleading self defense would work. I could not leave them virtually orphaned with a dead father and a mother in prison. Thankfully, I had my husband arrested and spending some time in jail changed his life. He went on to get therapy to heal some of the anger he was holding from childhood trauma and went on to become a better father and we were able to coparent wonderfully.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

That is almost exactly what the rape crisis self-defence instructor said.
If you are going to pull out a weapon, you must be mentally prepared to actually use it immediately. Many women just can't do that. So, pre-examine your capability of doing that.

If you don't use the weapon right away, you may not 'only' be raped, you may also be killed .. with your own weapon.

I didn’t injure my attacker when I kicked him down. And I ran right past where my kitchen knives were stored. I wondered later why I couldn’t match the ease in his willingness to injure me, kill me. I’m still glad that I didn’t, I made it to the safety of a room I could barricade. I understand some women aren’t that lucky.

If I had a gun available it may have ended differently, but most likely in his favour, imo.

 

[SouthAussie]

I didn’t injure my attacker when I kicked him down. And I ran right past where my kitchen knives were stored. I wondered later why I couldn’t match the ease in his willingness to injure me, kill me. I’m still glad that I didn’t, I made it to the safety of a room I could barricade. I understand some women aren’t that lucky.

If I had a gun a available it may have ended differently, but most likely in his favour, imo.

You did exactly what they recommend. Maim them, and RUN.

One thing the rape crisis self defence instructor taught (if you are able to, such as in a close contact situation like a rape) is to put your index and middle fingers into the attackers nostrils and pull hard. This creates great pain and massive instant blood flow, and may give an opportunity to run.

They usually don't protect their face, they protect their nether region.

 

[everybodhi]

So what's the difference between the Swiss and the Americans in relation to gun violence?

The Swiss have widespread gun ownership and also gun education. They seem to pride themselves in personal responsibility and also accountability.
Their culture and ethnicity is quite homogenous- their diversity is very low. My guess is it is easy much easier to agree when values, religion, morals, ethnicity, culture, and even genetics is historically similar.
My kids attended a school where seven languages were spoken in the homes of their classmates. The holiday celebration includes five religions.

Saying not everything works everywhere certainly doesn’t mean there is nothing that can’t be learned or couldn’t work everywhere.
In the US the federal government is limited in power. Much of the power goes to the state government, for the purpose of representing the people of the geographic area more closely. The needs of Montana and Florida are hugely different.
Why not lump all of Europe together and force them to agree on a set of laws that work for all of them- after all their land is connected. Doing so would be a challenge- that is why in the US it is a challenge.

JMO

Can you cite where you get the information that diversity is low in Switzerland?
Because I’m finding 1 in 5 are foreigners and that’s people who live there, permanently residents, not accounting for visitors. In 2020 113,647 residents were from Africa as one example of foreign demographics in the very small country. It is more white in rural areas but most Swiss people live in cities, about 74%.
This belief is often cited about Northern Europe too so it can be a pleasant surprise to arrive in Germany, Norway, Holland, Sweden..EU countries historically white, and find yourself in a place as diverse as NYC. It’s apparent as soon as you walk into the airport.
Europe has a lot of immigrants as it turns out. They hosted about 87 million international migrants in 2020!

IOM World Migration Report

Demographics of Switzerland - Wikipedia

 

[angelainwi]

My daughter is 19, let’s just pray she does not become a victim.
It is sickening to imagine what some women suffer.
I would assume such DV situations begin with verbal abuse and then become worse, and that there are signs.
Putting myself in another woman’s shoes would be to say I could see the signs. If there are signs, why would anyone in those shoes not see them too?
Maybe self worth has something to do with it? I honestly do not know.
I do know the stats are 1 of 3 women in Texas are DV victims.
In Oklahoma it is 49%.
Another reason not to move to OK.

JMO

My daughter is 20 and her father in law recently threatened her life. I did not encourage her to get a gun to protect herself. We installed ring cameras and made sure she never left her house unlocked and fortified her walk in closet to be bullet proof and we installed cross bars she could put in quickly so the door could not be knocked down. It was not cheap but I felt it was money better spent than on a gun that we did not feel she would be able to easily access while keeping it safe from her toddler. Plus, she did not feel she could keep her child safe in her arms and still accurately shoot a gun. She knows if she ever sees him appear on her ring camera to grab the baby and go into the walk in closet and call 911. Her husband works long hours and we figure if the FIL comes after her it will be when her husband is not home.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

You did exactly what they recommend. Maim them, and RUN.

One thing the rape crisis self defence instructor taught (if you are able to, such as in a close contact situation like a rape) is to put your index and middle fingers into the attackers nostrils and pull hard. This creates great pain and massive instant blood flow, and may give an opportunity to run.

They usually don't protect their face, they protect their nether region.

Thank you. And that’s true. I had practiced ways to injure someone in an attack, but when it came down to a real situation I couldn’t step over that line to hurt him in the ways I was taught.

I was just lucky to be able to kick him hard enough to give me time to flee.

 

[everybodhi]

It shows that whatever law on the books to keep guns out of the hands of people with a violent history is not working.
Some people do not have the luxury to move if a neighbor is a .
What are their options? They must protect their family.

JMO

They don’t need to protect their family from people driving up their driveways, knocking on their doors, and basketballs rolling in the yard.
Thats the reference to “get off my lawn!”.

 

[Leve]

Is this true? (And I'm not sure many people are proposing banning all guns. I think they are wanting to ban, or at least control, weapons of mass killing like semi-automatic weapons like AR-15s.) The second amendment refers to a well-armed militia. I believe the country has a well-armed militia and it is called the army (and the marines and the navy and the airforce).
The NRA has done an excellent PR campaign in that regard, when the wording of the second amendment is not clear at all.

ETA: oops. I just saw 10ofRods post above which made a similar point. I think both of us are saying that you can't make your comment as a fact. It is open to interpretation. Some people just don't want a different interpretation than they have and just want to own guns.

The armed services are part of the government.

Some AR-15 rifles are illegal so are AR-15 handguns if certain parts are added to the grip (I think - something that makes them longer anyway). I believe President Trump banned bump stocks after the Vegas shooting so semi-autimatics can't fire like automatic guns.

Semi-autimatic just means when a bullet is fired another bullet is automatically chambered. You still have to pull the trigger for each shot. Talking about banning semiautomatic guns means banning Glocks, Ruger's, ect. All of these are handguns but you don't have to "*advertiser censored* the gun" between each shot. The Ruger is the highest selling handgun in the US and you will definitely get a bunch of pushback talking about banning them.

It would be better to say ban semiautomatic rifles, shotguns, or long guns. Or ban gas operated semiautomatic guns.

 

[MyBelle]

Good for you, I’ve never had a guy raise his hand with that level of violence. Still it does not logically follow that what works for you should therefore be the choice for all women.
Some women shot their attackers and saved their own lives and those of their children.
Cops use deadly force every day to protect the lives of others.
It should not be an easy choice, but I would never judge someone suffering from violence who fears for their life or fears for the life of others.

JMO

The first thing an abuser does is drive a wedge between his victim and her support system. The most dangerous time for a woman is when she leaves or tries to leave the relationship.

Another problem is that there needs to be documentation of the domestic violence inflicted on the woman/children or she won't be granted an Order of Protection. If there is no documentation, the woman will be prosecuted for shooting the man. I've seen too many cases of female DV victims going to prison. There was no documentation because they were too afraid to call police and they had no support system such as friends or family to help them leave the relationship. A gun in her hands is a very bad idea.

Opinion: Domestic violence is at root of why many women are sent to Oklahoma prisons

"As a survivor of domestic violence, … if it had been between him or me, I would have done whatever it took to survive," said Tulsa business leader Paula Marshall.

tulsaworld.com

 

[MyBelle]

If a person is mentally un

If a person is mentally unstable and has a gun,
And someone petitions to take that gun away…

If it is a DV situation- I would expect it to escalate, they will act faster.
They will figure out or assume who petitioned saying they were dangerous.
They will escalate the violence and act before due process can take place.
That is why women who act to leave a violent partner are most at risk for violence when they begin to leave.

I would be curious to look at the details of the mass shootings and see if RedFlags would have alerted someone to prevent the shooting.
- In Uvalde he was living with his grandparents, his grandfather did not know he had a gun. He shot his grandmother in the face. Was there anyone who knew he was unhinged?
- In Oakland no one knew he had the gun except the parents, they bought it for him because he was too young. The process of identifying him as threatening was just beginning- with the school counselor.
- In Highland Park- the father helped him get the gun. I do not know if someone near him knew he was unhinged.

I will be curious to see what happens with Red Flag laws- as the hands of justice move at the speed of cold molasses- I’m doubtful.

JMO

In a DV situation, women should immediately call 9-1-1. LE will de-escalate, if there are no visible injury they will separate the couple and will hand the victim information about safe houses and DV hotlines. The call will result in a police report that then can be used to obtain an Exparte emergency order of protection.

The Uvalde shooter had a volatile history known to family and friends. It is unknown if Red Flag laws would have helped because Texas refuses to pass such laws. His family refused to buy him a gun so he did it on his own when he turned 18. He had a history of aggression according to his friends. He also wrote "LOL" in the victims' blood on a white board that had photos of several of his victims.

I'm not familiar with the Oakland case but in Highland Park, police had been called to the family's home several times because of the shooter's threats of violence toward his family. His parents insisted all was well so LE couldn't confiscate his weapons. His father helped him get the firearm ID card and is now being prosecuted.

Red Flag laws are becoming law in states with politicians interested protecting public safety. According to this psychiatrist, the laws are valuable:

According to the Associated Press, Florida has used their surrender law almost 6,000 times since the Parkland School shooting. Compare that to Illinois, where since 2020, a little more than 150 weapons have been surrendered, including just four in Chicago.

When studying a subset of “red flag” states, researchers looked at how many guns were taken away after threats of a mass shooting.

“It’s about 10% across these states are being used when there was that kind of a threat, and the most frequent target was a K-12 school. We don’t know for sure those threats would have materialized had the gun rule action not been put into place but we do know that they’re being used in a nontrivial number of these cases,” Swanson said.

Working to prevent gun violence is personal to Swanson, after losing three family members to suicides that involved guns. He believes “red flag” laws are an effective tool.

“It’s a civil restraining order, it’s not criminalizing, it’s temporary. It respects the Second Amendment rights of gun owners,” Swanson said.

Do ‘red flag’ laws actually work? Psychiatrist weighs in

 

[AngTxGal]

Can you cite where you get the information that diversity is low in Switzerland?
Because I’m finding 1 in 5 are foreigners and that’s people who live there, permanently residents, not accounting for visitors. In 2020 113,647 residents were from Africa as one example of foreign demographics in the very small country. It is more white in rural areas but most Swiss people live in cities, about 74%.
This belief is often cited about Northern Europe too so it can be a pleasant surprise to arrive in Germany, Norway, Holland, Sweden..EU countries historically white, and find yourself in a place as diverse as NYC. It’s apparent as soon as you walk into the airport.
Europe has a lot of immigrants as it turns out. They hosted about 87 million international migrants in 2020!

IOM World Migration Report

Demographics of Switzerland - Wikipedia

Historically the diversity of all countries of Europe were low compared to today as globalization has occurred.
The US is a melting pot, and over my lifetime is even more varied. It has never had a single United culture.
My point is was a nation made of diverse peoples may find it tougher to agree. A country with more similar beliefs would be easier to make laws that agree with everyone. Or so it seems.
I’m suggesting an explanation not stating a fact

JMO

 

[AngTxGal]

How do you know who among us has experienced DV? You’re the only one who has said what any DV victim should have done differently when you said his victim should have blown him away.
Edited to remove any possible discussion of TOS

I never claimed to know who was a DV victim.
The stars are staggering 1/3 of women in the US are victims, 4000 deaths per year and 1/2 of women in Oklahoma.
Saying what works for one person does not mean it would work for all.

For me, I do not believe I could tolerate it, especially my kids. I believe for me deadly force would be met with deadly force.
Yes, I believe I could do it, but of course I don’t know. It isn’t that I would look forward to it or celebrate it- I don’t even hunt, I don’t even kill spiders. I just don’t think I should have my fate be in the hands of someone else- who is intentionally hurting me.
JMO

Domestic Violence | Domestic Abuse Shelter

Domestic violence is a pattern of assaultive and coercive behaviors, including physical, sexual, and psychological attacks. Learn more about domestic abuse.

domesticabuseshelter.org