steeltowngirl
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One possible danger of students knowing a teacher is carrying would be a disgruntled student overtaking the teacher and getting possession of the weapon.
General Gun Violence/Gun Control
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BeginnerSleuther
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I'm sorry, I just think the idea to arm teachers is horrible. I think there's no easier way to insure we have a teacher shortage the likes of which we haven't seen in decades.
Schools should not be battlefields. Teachers are there to teach, not to be armed guards so that we can enjoy a so-called right to terrorize each other.
MOO.
Hi! Pardon me while I bore you for a minute, or just scroll on by. LOL
I was doing some research today and ran across a few statistics I thought were interesting.
In 2022 there were 45,222 firearm related deaths, HALF of those were suicides! Ugh
Men made up 86% of victims of a firearm death AND 87% of non-fatal injuries
"Firearm homicide rates are highest among teens and young adults 15-34 years of age and among Black or African American, American Indian or Alaska Native, and Hispanic or Latino populations."
"Firearm suicide rates are highest among adults 75 years of age and older and among American Indian or Alaska Native and non-Hispanic white populations."
www.cdc.gov
So what do we know about defensive firearm usage? I haven't read the, now outdated, lengthy report from 2013 but found a good summary in the Gift article linked below.
Basically Obama asked the CDC to do a research study gun violence.
If anyone is interested in reading the 121 page study it's linked in the article.
I was doing some research today and ran across a few statistics I thought were interesting.
In 2022 there were 45,222 firearm related deaths, HALF of those were suicides! Ugh
Men made up 86% of victims of a firearm death AND 87% of non-fatal injuries
"Firearm homicide rates are highest among teens and young adults 15-34 years of age and among Black or African American, American Indian or Alaska Native, and Hispanic or Latino populations."
"Firearm suicide rates are highest among adults 75 years of age and older and among American Indian or Alaska Native and non-Hispanic white populations."
Fast Facts: Firearm Violence Prevention |Violence Prevention|Injury Center|CDC
What is a firearm injury? Learn fast facts of firearm violence from the CDC Injury Center.
www.cdc.gov
So what do we know about defensive firearm usage? I haven't read the, now outdated, lengthy report from 2013 but found a good summary in the Gift article linked below.
Basically Obama asked the CDC to do a research study gun violence.
Except--
If anyone is interested in reading the 121 page study it's linked in the article.
10ofRods
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I was writing about mass shootings, which was the topic in the post I responded to, I believe.
In terms of state by state statistics, backing out suicide from the stats doesn't change the map much.
IMO. The data is all kept by the CDC and the FBI, it's freely available for each person to analyze what they wish (although the Mass Killings database is managed by Northwestern University, it's award-winning and easy to find with Google.
10ofRods
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Teachers lose it, just like everyone else. Surely you read of crimes against pupils by teachers? Or teachers themselves committing acts of workplace violence?
Since guns aren't allowed on the campus where I teach, most of this acting out has been pummeling or punching or, in one case, an attempt to strangle (one faculty against another; one of them lost his job - but it took a year).
If every teacher had a concealed carry permit, we'd see more people getting shot by teachers' guns (and yes, the kids would know they were there, some teachers would brag about it and the kids would start looking for signs).
Where would someone like me actually wear this gun? Do I carry a tote bag all the time? (Because I don't carry one right now). Would it have a special closure? How helpful would that be if I needed the gun right away? Would I wear a bulky coat so that I could have a cross body holster? It would be instantly obviously why I had changed my normal way of dressing.
The hot-tempered teachers I know are already a problem. I would stop going to faculty meetings if I knew any of the hot-tempered ones were there. Right now, the worst they can do is throw things and get in people's faces.
I also think that given that bullets travel through persons and into other persons, that unless teachers all did military style training a couple of times of year and committed to one day a week at the gun range, we'd have a lot of innocent people dead.
And yes, a lot of teachers would just quit. It's a profession with a lot of gun-phobic people.
Smelly Squirrel
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One article said state law requires special elections to fill the seats, with the general election within about 4 months, so they could be back in office soon
Hey @MyBelle earlier I reacted to a post of yours about red flag laws and did a little self education. I discovered that you were right. These laws already exist in a number of states and I think they are referred to as ERPO's extreme risk protection orders. As of 2020 there are 20 states with these laws.
www.twyfordlaw.com
I read a recent study from 1/2023 from RAND
www.rand.org
Here are some takeaways
law enforcement, family members, or medical professionals can petition a court to temporarily restrict a person's access to firearms if they believe that person is at risk of hurting him or herself or others
the parameters of the ERPO's vary by state but in 2022 a bipartisan act set aside 750 mill to support implementation
it seems like in most cases the person receiving the ERPO has to go to court in order for their guns to be removed but some states have an ex parte addition for those like in domestic violence situations
states set their own guidelines on the evidence necessary to prove an ERPO is valid
ERPO's prohibit the individual from purchasing new firearms
as of now there is no database for ERPO's but some states have this info public
other than California most ERPO's are for self harm situations
this report also addresses (my argument earlier) that an ERPO might be used unethically against a legal gun owner
the report also addresses a possible risk to LE
Red Flag Laws: What are Extreme Risk Protective Orders and Which States Have them?
An extreme risk protection order (ERPO) immediately restricts a person’s access to guns for a temporary period of time. Learn more about red flag laws here.
www.twyfordlaw.com
I read a recent study from 1/2023 from RAND
The Effects of Extreme Risk Protection Orders
Analysis of the impact of extreme risk protection orders, also known as red flag laws, on gun-related outcomes in the United States.
www.rand.org
law enforcement, family members, or medical professionals can petition a court to temporarily restrict a person's access to firearms if they believe that person is at risk of hurting him or herself or others
the parameters of the ERPO's vary by state but in 2022 a bipartisan act set aside 750 mill to support implementation
it seems like in most cases the person receiving the ERPO has to go to court in order for their guns to be removed but some states have an ex parte addition for those like in domestic violence situations
states set their own guidelines on the evidence necessary to prove an ERPO is valid
ERPO's prohibit the individual from purchasing new firearms
as of now there is no database for ERPO's but some states have this info public
other than California most ERPO's are for self harm situations
this report also addresses (my argument earlier) that an ERPO might be used unethically against a legal gun owner
the report also addresses a possible risk to LE
Last edited:
ReadySet
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How many gun deaths were prevented today? We can't answer that because in most cases we can't measure it.
We wait until something happens then try to fix it. Emphasis is not on prevention.
Every day, mass shootings and school shootings and suicides by gun and unintentional gun deaths are PREVENTED. But it's not very interesting or dramatic to talk about.
My very gentle and sensitive student got into an argument with his dad at home. In that moment, he was in despair. There was a loaded gun handy. He picked it up and killed himself. There is no doubt in my mind that if that gun had not been available, he would be alive today.
We say, that law you're proposing woudn't have prevented the most recent school shooting. BUT it could prevent some OTHER school shootings.
Drunk Driving laws don't prevent ALL drunk driving deaths. But they prevent some. Should we lessen drunk driving laws?
Laws against child abuse don't prevent all child abuse. But they prevent some. Should we reduce child abuse laws?
Every day, parents and teachers and school staff and therapists and LE and others do a thousand things that prevent people from using a gun to harm themselves or others.
But there are few to no news stories like:
"Parents worked with school staff and LE to get help for teen whose journal writings showed homicidal ideation. Student is now getting intense intervention."
Do your friends and family tell you the truth:
"We realized teen was having emotional problems. We took all the guns and knives out of the house."
"As dad has gotten older, he has become forgetful and careless with the guns, we gradually took them out of the house."
"Thank goodness our state has such strict gun laws. Our adult child was really struggling, and if it would have been easier for him to get a gun, I think he would have used it. Now, they are doing much better and are stable."
You say "that law" would not have prevented all school or mass shootings. But it would slow them down, prevent some or many, make it more difficult. Just like suicide, many people go on and are glad that they survived or were stopped.
We have a lot of laws requiring safety requirements for vehicles and drivers. But people die in car wrecks anyway! Let's get rid of the laws.
Teens can't get a driver's license until they are a certain age. Some drive anyway! Let's get rid of underage driving laws.
We have made the most efficient guns easily accessible. They flow like a river of violence through our society. Let's dam the river.
ETA: I am NOT in favor of getting rid of all guns!! Just common sense gun laws!
We wait until something happens then try to fix it. Emphasis is not on prevention.
Every day, mass shootings and school shootings and suicides by gun and unintentional gun deaths are PREVENTED. But it's not very interesting or dramatic to talk about.
My very gentle and sensitive student got into an argument with his dad at home. In that moment, he was in despair. There was a loaded gun handy. He picked it up and killed himself. There is no doubt in my mind that if that gun had not been available, he would be alive today.
We say, that law you're proposing woudn't have prevented the most recent school shooting. BUT it could prevent some OTHER school shootings.
Drunk Driving laws don't prevent ALL drunk driving deaths. But they prevent some. Should we lessen drunk driving laws?
Laws against child abuse don't prevent all child abuse. But they prevent some. Should we reduce child abuse laws?
Every day, parents and teachers and school staff and therapists and LE and others do a thousand things that prevent people from using a gun to harm themselves or others.
But there are few to no news stories like:
"Parents worked with school staff and LE to get help for teen whose journal writings showed homicidal ideation. Student is now getting intense intervention."
Do your friends and family tell you the truth:
"We realized teen was having emotional problems. We took all the guns and knives out of the house."
"As dad has gotten older, he has become forgetful and careless with the guns, we gradually took them out of the house."
"Thank goodness our state has such strict gun laws. Our adult child was really struggling, and if it would have been easier for him to get a gun, I think he would have used it. Now, they are doing much better and are stable."
You say "that law" would not have prevented all school or mass shootings. But it would slow them down, prevent some or many, make it more difficult. Just like suicide, many people go on and are glad that they survived or were stopped.
We have a lot of laws requiring safety requirements for vehicles and drivers. But people die in car wrecks anyway! Let's get rid of the laws.
Teens can't get a driver's license until they are a certain age. Some drive anyway! Let's get rid of underage driving laws.
We have made the most efficient guns easily accessible. They flow like a river of violence through our society. Let's dam the river.
ETA: I am NOT in favor of getting rid of all guns!! Just common sense gun laws!
Last edited:
mickey2942
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A century ago people felt that alcohol was dangerous to society, and the United States voted for Prohibition, no alcohol was legal in the United States. After 13 years it was repealed.
en.wikipedia.org
My belief is that making guns more difficult to obtain, would create an underground of sales, similar to prohibition.
Prohibition in the United States - Wikipedia
My belief is that making guns more difficult to obtain, would create an underground of sales, similar to prohibition.
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ADMIN NOTE:
This discussion is NOT for politicizing .. it is to discuss what can or cannot be done about gun violence in general.
Do NOT turn this into political debate or bickering about the Reps and the Dems or this thread will be permanently closed just like the Political Pavilion had to be closed.
This discussion is NOT for politicizing .. it is to discuss what can or cannot be done about gun violence in general.
Do NOT turn this into political debate or bickering about the Reps and the Dems or this thread will be permanently closed just like the Political Pavilion had to be closed.
Last edited:
ReadySet
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We have all kinds of laws regarding alcohol. Kids drink anyway. Should we make it legal for any age to drink? We know that minimum age drinking age laws save lives and protect health. There are federal, state, and local laws regulating the manufacture and consumption of alcohol.A century ago people felt that alcohol was dangerous to society, and the United States voted for Prohibition, no alcohol was legal in the United States. After 13 years it was repealed.
Prohibition in the United States - Wikipedia
My belief is that making guns more difficult to obtain, would create an underground of sales, similar to prohibition.
In spite of that, there are many alcohol related deaths. But some laws prevent some deaths. Isn't one life saved worth it?
I agree that there would be underground sales; aren't there already, to criminals?
But if we can make guns, especially the most efficient guns that can do the most damage in the shortest amount of time, harder to get, and it saves children, it's worth it.
I'm certainly not advocating for "prohibition" of guns.
angelainwi
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If the teachers at the schools my grandchildren attend are armed I would be talking to their parents about taking them out of school and letting me homeschool them. I do not want them in a classroom with guns. Where there is a gun there is a high chance that it could be used and also the chance that students could get a hold of it. And how many times have we seen teachers, police officers and so forth leave their guns by accident in public bathrooms. These rates would only go up. But most worrisome to me would be the thought of my grandchild seeing a teacher use a gun to shoot another student. Children are supposed to feel safe in their classrooms. Someone feeling the need to carry a gun in their classroom scares children. It makes them feel unsafe. I can say this because I work with kids who are struggling as a result of trauma and some of these children have trauma related to firearms and do not feel safe around anyone carrying a gun. It triggers flashbacks for them and makes them fear that it is going to be used to hurt someone they care about. Do those kids matter? Or do their parents/caregivers need to make them transfer out of their school because teachers are deciding to carry guns. How is that fair? Some children will not feel safe with a gun in their classroom. Children who are scared cannot learn. And guess what, if it is known that teachers can carry, a school shooter will just plan to shoot any and all teachers they see first. And because most of the school shooters will be armed with AR-15 style weapons they will win the gun battle and then go on to shoot the students.
Edited to add words I forgot lol
Do you have a link to support the BBM as I am unaware of those incidents but would love to learn more as that is quite dangerous and unusual behavior from a concealed carry individual. More interested in the teacher aspect as that is what is being discussed. TIA
angelainwi
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Cops: Elementary kids find loaded gun teacher left in Pa. school bathroom
Police say 63-year-old Beth Jean Dixon put her holstered pistol on a toilet tank when she used the bathroom, then forgot about it
www.cbsnews.com
angelainwi
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After leaving a gun unattended in school restroom, Granbury teacher is put on leave
Many state leaders called for more armed staff in Texas schools following the massacre at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde. Several proposed bills this...
www.dallasnews.com
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Apologies if already posted ..
Only a Wiki, but has a chart that shows gun laws (incl. red flag laws) in individual states and territories:
en.wikipedia.org
Only a Wiki, but has a chart that shows gun laws (incl. red flag laws) in individual states and territories:
Gun laws in the United States by state - Wikipedia
angelainwi
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angelainwi
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Police: Whitney HS vice principal left gun unattended in bathroom
25 News obtained a police report Tuesday that was filed in August 2019 after the Whitney High School vice principal left her gun unattended in a restroom on campus.
www.kxxv.com
angelainwi
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Tuscumbia school resource officer removed after leaving gun in bathroom
TUSCUMBIA, Ala. — One of the school resource officers at G.W. Trenholm Primary School in Tuscumbia was relieved of his duties Wednesday after a substitute teacher found one of his firearms in the r…
whnt.com
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