George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 2

[MsBetsy]

GF probably didn't have access to comprehensive health care. So, it is unlikely he received treatment for any medical issues. Or even had tests to identify problems.

I would think they would have checked his heart function when he was hospitalized in March following the overdose. They had five days to run all kinds of tests.

 

[turaj]

I had to go back and listen to Dr. Baker both direct and cross again given many commentators thought that Nelson did so well. After re-listening Dr. Baker is inconsistent ...one minute pressure on back and yet cause of death compression on neck? Re-listening also pointed out to me that his basic heart condition was challenged by the interaction beyond its capacity...Dr. Baker is not going with asphyxia as the state wants. I have to think about this now.

 

[turaj]

I had to go back and listen to Dr. Baker both direct and cross again given many commentators thought that Nelson did so well. After re-listening Dr. Baker is inconsistent ...one minute pressure on back and yet cause of death compression on neck? Re-listening also pointed out to me that his basic heart condition was challenged by the interaction beyond its capacity...Dr. Baker is not going with asphyxia as the state wants. I have to think about this now.

I would think they would have checked his heart function when he was hospitalized in March following the overdose. They had five days to run all kinds of tests.

I am sure they did...it was confirmed per "medical records" that he had hypertension and the clogged arteries. I think GF was the kind of guy that only encountered medical professionals on an "as needed" basis and their direction at an ER would be to contact your regular doc. I doubt he did that. The medical records for March may come in thru defense as they would provide a baseline for the propensity for some sort of cardiac event. Baker seems to contend that even the situation in its entirety would cause enough stress combined with the enlarged heart to cause death. I now do think the defense has some sort of case here...up to Baker I did not think that.

 

[kittythehare]

BBM...I'm a Certified Advance Life Support Instructor.
I've never heard or seen any information to support ...
CPR can release THC stored in fat cells.

I am most interested in a source/literature/link that supports this.

Thanks so much...

In that case you need to listen to the expert testimonies. That is the source(. I'm an RN with 30 years ICU experience, not that qualifications are relevant to our discussions here.)

 

[Sleuther12345]

I feel sorry for the 2 new policemen who had just joined the force. I hope they are given fair trial. Regarding DC - no matter what happens if he's found guilty or acquitted I think his life is over completely. Personally I don't understand how he can sit there every day taking notes and listening to everything. I would feel absolutely devastated that my actions had caused another person's death and the way caused his death. It feels different than if you shoot a person in an emergency but what he did to poor Mr Floyd - I really don't know how he can get up every day and function.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

I had to go back and listen to Dr. Baker both direct and cross again given many commentators thought that Nelson did so well. After re-listening Dr. Baker is inconsistent ...one minute pressure on back and yet cause of death compression on neck? Re-listening also pointed out to me that his basic heart condition was challenged by the interaction beyond its capacity...Dr. Baker is not going with asphyxia as the state wants. I have to think about this now.

Umm, but he did. He just put in different words that meant the same thing MOO It was complicating .."untoward event after intervention of" the paramedics...

 

[Simply Southern]

How many jurors perhaps are able to discern medical documents and create an opinion that is more well learned to evaluate and dispute on the jury do you think? (Whether presented by the defense or the prosecution). We at WS struggle to understand medical docs... so it's the opinions of experts in trials. Yes, they often disagree, and we shall see what the defense has to offer.

Do you think that the jurors should go back with perhaps 10 medical studies as laypersons and create an opinion with NO background in science (one nurse on jury).

That's analagous to folks in February... to now... saying COVID is a hoax??? as they do not understand science or ????

They gave their references as to "evidence" for their basis... although not going to the jury their references. MOO







Have you followed other cases where they have submitted multiple journal articles and textbooks to jury for them to decipher? I'm interested as I've never seen, but nonwithstanding haven't followed where such has happened and would like to learn.

TIA

I'm referring to simple charts.... How many died of overdose, and the level of Fentanyl? I keep hearing "he didn't died of an overdose" but the lab reports clearly shows he had a lethal dose.

As a juror, I would be thinking ... why they are all so confident a 90% heart blockage combined with a lethal dose of Fentanyl, would not have a major impact on death? I'm thinking all are factors that played a contribution. Just the 90% blockage, he could have a stroke or major heart attack at any moment..without the drugs, without the stress of arrest, without the neck on his neck.
MOO....

 

[dixiegirl1035]

I had to go back and listen to Dr. Baker both direct and cross again given many commentators thought that Nelson did so well. After re-listening Dr. Baker is inconsistent ...one minute pressure on back and yet cause of death compression on neck? Re-listening also pointed out to me that his basic heart condition was challenged by the interaction beyond its capacity...Dr. Baker is not going with asphyxia as the state wants. I have to think about this now.

I am sure they did...it was confirmed per "medical records" that he had hypertension and probably the clogged arteries. I think GF was the kind of guy that only encountered medical professionals on an "as needed" basis and their direction at an ER would be to contact your regular doc. I doubt he did that. The medical records for March may come in thru defense as they would provide a baseline for the propensity for some sort of cardiac event. Baker seems to contend that even the situation in its entirety would cause enough stress combined with the enlarged heart to cause death. I now do think the defense has some sort of case here...up to Baker I did not think that.

I'm referring to simple charts.... How many died of overdose, and the level of Fentanyl? I keep hearing "he didn't died of an overdose" but the lab reports clearly shows he had a lethal dose.

As a juror, I would be thinking ... why they are all so confident a 90% heart blockage combined with a lethal dose of Fentanyl, would not have a major impact on death? I'm thinking all are factors that played a contribution. Just the 90% blockage, he could have a stroke or major heart attack at any moment..without the drugs, without the stress of arrest, without the neck on his neck.
MOO....

Exactly! Thank you for pointing it out multiple times. That most of us here have underlying conditions... but IF NOT FOR WHAT HAPPENED... we are still alive and kicking!!!

We have discussed MANY MANY months on the COVID thread as a comparison about underlying conditions. COVID was direct cause of death. Having underlying conditions doesn't give carte blance to the TERMINAL CAUSE of death. MOO.

Thanks for reinforcing such!

 

[Simply Southern]

Has a witness list been released for this trial? I am curious on who the defense has coming. ( Besides Mr Hall )

me, too

 

[turaj]

Well bottom line absent the intervention of the police officers GF might be alive today...if they had done all of those same moves on a very healthy man maybe they would have survived but GF did not. <modsnip>

 

[turaj]

Can anyone explain Dr. Baker saying on one hand the knee was mostly on back and another it was neck compression that killed him?

 

[kittythehare]

I agree.
A 90% blockage, is a walking time bomb...MOO.

Basically he had 10% heart function.

Inaccurate!
The 90% blockage described ONE artery, not all of them.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

I feel sorry for the 2 new policemen who had just joined the force. I hope they are given fair trial. Regarding DC - no matter what happens if he's found guilty or acquitted I think his life is over completely. Personally I don't understand how he can sit there every day taking notes and listening to everything. I would feel absolutely devastated that my actions had caused another person's death and the way caused his death. It feels different than if you shoot a person in an emergency but what he did to poor Mr Floyd - I really don't know how he can get up every day and function.

Understood, from near the beginning, and as I have learned more.... I do have more understanding of dynamics when it came to Lane..... and his newbie partner Keung. They were both on their first days......

 

[shotgun09]

I agree.
A 90% blockage, is a walking time bomb...MOO.

Basically he had 10% heart function.

I can agree with the 'time bomb' statement. The 90 % blockage of his Right Coronary Artery ( RCA) was at the Proximal ( beginning ) end of the artery. Also, it was subtly pointed out by Nelson yesterday that this area of the artery is VERY VERY close to the electrical conduction point that starts every beat and regulates the rhythm of the heart beat, known as the SA node. A 90% occlusion of this artery is dangerous, and any increased stressors on the heart (Known heart disease, hypertension, uncontrolled narcotic and stimulant abuse, resisting arrest and fighting against those restraints ) would definitely be causative stressors inducing the heart to struggle and stop.

This blockage, IMO is/was very similar in nature to the stories we may all acquaint with the patient who suddenly collapses while shoveling a heavy wet snow.

Also IMO, the juror who is a Cardiac Nurse knows all of this as well

 

[MsBetsy]

I had to go back and listen to Dr. Baker both direct and cross again given many commentators thought that Nelson did so well. After re-listening Dr. Baker is inconsistent ...one minute pressure on back and yet cause of death compression on neck? Re-listening also pointed out to me that his basic heart condition was challenged by the interaction beyond its capacity...Dr. Baker is not going with asphyxia as the state wants. I have to think about this now.

I am sure they did...it was confirmed per "medical records" that he had hypertension and probably the clogged arteries. I think GF was the kind of guy that only encountered medical professionals on an "as needed" basis and their direction at an ER would be to contact your regular doc. I doubt he did that. The medical records for March may come in thru defense as they would provide a baseline for the propensity for some sort of cardiac event. Baker seems to contend that even the situation in its entirety would cause enough stress combined with the enlarged heart to cause death. I now do think the defense has some sort of case here...up to Baker I did not think that.

Yes, he was diagnosed with hypertension but I haven't heard anything about the clogged arteries.

I don't think the defense has been that damaging to the case so far. If what the officers did to Floyd was safe for a healthy person why not just do a demonstration in court? It's already been established that restraining someone that way in the prone position is dangerous.

All the prosecution has to prove is that the neck and back compression was a substantial causal factor in Floyd's death. They don't have to show that his health problems were not a contributing factor. Millions of people are walking around with heart disease as well as other conditions, like asthma or COPD, which may have been "complicating" to the neck and back pressure that was applied. Imo

 

[kittythehare]

I'm referring to simple charts.... How many died of overdose, and the level of Fentanyl? I keep hearing "he didn't died of an overdose" but the lab reports clearly shows he had a lethal dose.

As a juror, I would be thinking ... why they are all so confident a 90% heart blockage combined with a lethal dose of Fentanyl, would not have a major impact on death? I'm thinking all are factors that played a contribution. Just the 90% blockage, he could have a stroke or major heart attack at any moment..without the drugs, without the stress of arrest, without the neck on his neck.
MOO....

Not only did he not DIE of fentanyl poisoning, he also dod not manifest a single symptom of fentanyl in his respirations or LOC (level of consciousness).
Dr Tobin went to some pains to illustrate this in his precise and evidence based testimony. I suggest you listen to his testimony in full .

 

[Simply Southern]

Inaccurate!
The 90% blockage described ONE artery, not all of them.

Thank you. I need to take a more detailed look at the autopsy.

 

[RANCH]

I'm referring to simple charts.... How many died of overdose, and the level of Fentanyl? I keep hearing "he didn't died of an overdose" but the lab reports clearly shows he had a lethal dose.

As a juror, I would be thinking ... why they are all so confident a 90% heart blockage combined with a lethal dose of Fentanyl, would not have a major impact on death? I'm thinking all are factors that played a contribution. Just the 90% blockage, he could have a stroke or major heart attack at any moment..without the drugs, without the stress of arrest, without the neck on his neck.
MOO....

I'm certain that we will hear much more about this from the defense. It's obvious to me that the drugs and heart problems could have been a factor in GF's death. It's not a surprise that the State is trying to deflect and minimize those factors because it goes against their case. JMO

 

[turaj]

Understood, from near the beginning, and as I have learned more.... I do have more understanding of dynamics when it came to Lane..... and his newbie partner Keung. They were both on their first days......

i doubt these two will see a trial...they will settle out of court...Lane seemed to be the only one with some empathy for GF and tried his best short of tackling his superior to get GF on side....they need to be held accountable but given some slack...at least that is my opinion. Listening to Lane's BCA interview gives a good insight into the "rest of the story". Thao on the other hand needs some serious prison time like Chauvin.

 

[Simply Southern]

I would think they would have checked his heart function when he was hospitalized in March following the overdose. They had five days to run all kinds of tests.

That’s a great thought! Wonder if we will hear anything from that hospital stay.