George Zimmerman /Trayvon Martin General Discussion #13 Thursday July 11

[Isabelle]

Actually I can, Because GZ had injuries all over him. HE was the one on the bottom, GZ's hands had no injuries of beating anyone either.

TM got the upper hand from the beginning furthering GZ's need to shoot to get him to retreat and get off.

GZ did not have injuries "all over him". I believe he had cuts and bruising to the face and head and that is only a part of him.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

That has nothing to do with the case. That's IMO where everyone goes sideways on this case. Even if TM was not suspended from school - if he was there on Easter break - he was still a guest at his father's house. And going to the store to pick up a soda and some skittles should not cost a young man his life.
IMO

That is not what cost him his life. He sadly was shot while beating a man.

Facts in the case of State vs Zimmerman.

 

[logicalgirl]

You're right. But, as with GZ's head and face there were cuts. Just because you are dead, your cuts don't miraculously heal. We were talking about bruises, not cuts. And TM did have cuts on his hands.

One small quarter inch cut on his left index finger....One.

IMO

 

[Footwarrior]

Testimony said rain had washed off DNA and no one bagged his hands.

Travon's hands were under his body when the police arrived. Can anyone explain how the rain washed the blood off his hands in that position?

 

[PaintingAnemone]

Can you link the case law where assaulting/throwing a punch at someone is legal in the cases you stated?

<modsnip> That's a rhetorical question, because we all know there isn't any. But that's exactly the point - I think too many people here have bought GZ's story hook, line, and sinker. Imo, when a killer is trying to defend himself, of course he's going to say "so-and-so started it." Since the only person that could present another side of that is dead, we'll never really know.

 

[Foxfire]

justice for george zimmerman

From my research of Gallup & Pew polls last night. At this point in the trial, aproximately 80% of folks believe GZ is innocent..

Although there are only 6 Jurors in the GZ trial;

'A jury consists of twelve persons chosen to decide who has the better lawyers'.
Quote: Robert Frost

 

[Love Never Fails]

I have a real-life analogy to this event. Forgive the length of this post, but I'd like to lay it out to explain the difference between the Trayvon killing and what happened to my own son.

One night, early in the evening but after the sun went down, my son (16 years old) was walking through our neighborhood. We'd lived in the neighborhood for 13 years at this point in time. My son is white. He was wearing jeans, t-shirt and high-top sneakers. He was about 5'11" and weighed about 105-110 lbs. His hair was about 18" long and curly (he was, and is today, a 'metal head'.)

He walked out the door of our home and starting walking up the street, on the sidewalk that runs in front of our house and through the neighborhood. At about the same time, a car pulled onto our street from a street that divides our neighborhood from the neighborhood to our north. As the car was moving up the street it started to slow down when it got to where my son was walking. The car continued to move slowly, at the pace my son was walking until they both reached a cross street. My son turned right and the car turned right and continued keeping pace with my son's walking speed. It was a short street he'd turned onto and at the next corner my son turned right again and the car turned left, pulled into a driveway and the driver got out. It was his house.
The man is about 6'1", 230 lbs. He works as a city firefighter, trains in MMA style fighting (as a hobby), and is extremely fit. He's a huge mountain of muscle. He's dressed in cargo shorts, sandals and a sleeveless t-shirt.

As my son was walking he heard footsteps behind him and turned and saw that the man was following him. This alarmed him because he knew who he was. My son kept walking down this long street and kept hearing footsteps behind him. My son became increasingly alarmed from this. He turned right. The man turned right and continued to follow behind him. My son crossed the street on a diagonal because at this point he was really getting scared, and the man started to cross the street on the diagonal and continued following my son on the other side of the street. My son spun around and shouted, "Why are you following me?!" and stood facing him from about 20 feet away. The man stopped and looked at him. Then he started bending and stretching and said aloud to apparently no one in particular "looks like a good night for a run" and turned around and started to jog in the opposite direction back to his house.

There was zero reason for this man to follow my son. The man personally knew him and knew where he lived. There had been no criminal activity in the neighborhood where witnesses described the perpetrators to be skinny, white teenage males with long curly hair. But he knew my son because he knew me, because I had an order of protection against him upheld by a local justice court. The only purpose of his actions was to intimidate my teenage son, and indirectly intimidate me. He did it out of hatred, spite and malice. He intended to frighten my son and indirectly, me.

Two days later, when I was telling the police officer familiar with our saga, the events that happened a few nights prior, he informed me that this lunatic didn't do anything legally wrong. It was his neighborhood and he didn't touch my son. He didn't even speak to my son. Despite the OOP, this could happen every day for the duration of the OOP and there was nothing I could do about it.

My son has a short fuse, and he is not afraid to defend himself when threatened or attacked. I thank God that my son did not physically confront this psycho because this man would have hurt him. This SOB knows the law and knows that he could beat my son to his heart's content if my son threw the first punch, but my son didn't (Thank God) and therefore the situation was diffused because my son didn't react with violence.

HAD my son done so, and HAD this man killed my son (with or without a gun) he could be charged with Murder 2 because all those adjectives many in this forum use to describe Zimmerman's actions (inaccurately) were actually the motives of this crazy SOB. He WAS stalking my son, he WAS trying to intimidate my son, he WAS looking for an altercation with my son. He did it with hatred, malice and spite. But unlike Trayvon, my son was known to the man who was following him. Unlike Trayvon, my son didn't share the physical characteristics of criminals at large who'd committed crimes in the neighborhood. And unlike Trayvon, my son did not confront with violence.

I see NO evidence of murder in the 2nd degree of Trayvon Martin by George Zimmerman, especially when I contrast his actions with the actions of someone in real life who pursued a teenager through his neighborhood with depravity, hatred and spite.

IMO

Thank you for sharing this. Very courageous on this thread at this time. I am so glad for your son. Yep. When you need help, you have to wait for a crime to get it and when someone defends themselves they are charged and everyone cries racism. I will pray for your sons safety in the future.

 

[iluvmua]

i haven't said much. this because i've found much of the discussion here entirely disconcerting.

it is inconceivable to me that so many folks, the very same ones who were disgusted at the mere thought that anything negative should even be breathed about travis alexander in the arias, have taken to bashing a 17 year old victim of a murder. and that is the fact. argue all you like as to it being something else. trayvon martin did not take his own life that night. george zimmerman murdered him. the baloney excuses, the long, never-ending, maze-like attempts to explain or justify it are not based on legal statutes. i've read dozens of times that those who feel GZ is guilty are merely responding with emotion. i will refrain from calling statements like that what i feel they are, but rather, will point out that those who feel GZ is not guilty are responding to emotion just as much as anyone else. there is simply a difference between what makes one person emotional and what makes another emotional. emotions run high when core beliefs are challenged.

my core beliefs as relevant here: a 17 year old is still a child. in the United States of America, no person should be gunned down for walking down the street. a neighborhood watch person of good intention, particularly a captain, would have immediately informed the operator that he was armed. he would then have called another person in the neighborhood for back up. a 17 year old who was going to go after someone would brag about to the girl on the other end of the phone, and then he would hang up before any punches were thrown. there are more, but this is enough.

i am a well-educated, well-read, intelligent individual. i assume most here are the same. it is glaringly obvious to me that george zimmerman murdered trayvon martin. period. it is a tragedy and it is a crime.

that said, i believe he will be found not guilty. i believe that will be an unjust verdict.

MOST importantly, i believe it is deplorable and frankly unacceptable to see people talking about how riots are going to break out if zimmerman is found innocent. do people truly not see that this is just as much an example of racial profiling as was the one zimmerman engaged in? i've yet to see a single person claim that riots would be break out if zimmerman were found guilty. would it be less disastrous if the angry, gun-toting zimmerman fans rioted? that's sure some interesting logic.

at the end of the day, the parents of a 17 year old have lost their son. they have never claimed he was perfect. i beseech everyone to think of your own 17 year old, or a 17 year old you know. think about that kid. think about that kid not in terms of how you hate the way they dress, or can't stand the slang they use, of how nasty their fb page makes them look....but think about the heart of that 17 year old. for me, this is easy. i've had two at that age so far. i promise you that a 17 year old, at 5'11'' and just over 150 lbs is a lanky, skinny kid and he knows it. a 17 yo who was a good enough brother to be bringing his sibling back a snack from 7-11 (without even opening it to take some for himself, mind you), a 17 year old whose only tattoos were the names of his grandmothers and the name of his mother, that 17 year old was innocent that night when he left the house, and innocent when his life ended on the wet ground.

i predict that trayvon's parents, regardless of the verdict, will make it a mission to deal with the atrocity of a law in florida that all but begs for the murder of innocent human beings. it needs to change.

no, they've just claimed he was an innocent child walking home from the store with nothing more than skittles and iced tea and that he was profiled, stalked & murdered because of his skin color.

Why do you think they gave the media pictures of Trayvon when he was 12-14?

because they want people to side with them and get an innocent man who was clearly acting in self defense convicted.

JMO

 

[gxm]

Didn't posters who side with Zimmerman say that bruising can stop when you heart stops? That was the excuse for Trayvon not having injuries to his hands, other than the small abrasion to his left non-dominate hand. Clearly, by Trayvon's lack of injuries to his hands, he didn't punch GZ 20-30 times.

So, going with other people's theory of why no bruising on Trayvon's hands, maybe Trayvon was really beaten and the bruising didn't show up due to his death. :twocents:

Can't have it both ways...

If TM had been beaten, there would have been scrapes and/or cuts, or maybe even a broken nose. But no such injuries were found on TM (except scrapes to his knuckles which indicate striking GZ). However, those injuries (cuts and a broken nose) were found on GZ. The evidence, IMO, shows beyond doubt that TM physically assaulted GZ and that TM had the upper hand until GZ managed to get to his gun before TM. JMO. OMO. MOO.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

GZ did not have injuries "all over him". I believe he had cuts and bruising to the face and head and that is only a part of him.

He had a busted nose and bruises and cuts all over his head. This proves to me that TM was indeed trying to harm him in the most vulnerable place. His head.

I should have said all over his head and face. I apologize.

It is enough to show that he was beaten and was in danger of losing his life or having extreme damage to his person.

 

[PaintingAnemone]

Travon's hands were under his body when the police arrived. Can anyone explain how the rain washed the blood off his hands in that position?

A better question, imo, is why GZ still has blood on his bald head, which was definitely exposed to the rain, but TM's hands (which were under his body) were somehow washed sparkling clean in the drizzle.

 

[magnolia]

i agree with Bill Schaeffer on wftv who said that the "child abuse 3rd degree murder" being asked for by the state is a "hail mary."

this is so ridiculous and the prosecution has played dirty the whole time imo....even bringing these charges was a dirty political agenda. again all JMO, we will see if the sanctions hearing against the prosecution ever takes place.

anyway, i do think manslaughter had to be offered as a lesser offense, don't really see a way around that so that was obviously the right decision by the judge and was expected all along by the defense IMO. However, if the jury believes he acted in self defense, or believes that there is reasonable doubt that it wasn't self defense, that doesn't really matter, he will be aquitted.

i have every confidence that O'Mara is going to present a closing argument that will be one for the ages and that will probably end up being taught in law schools, just as I imagine some of his cross examinations throughout this case will be.

i went into this trial with an open mind. when this first happened i was horrified that GZ wasn't immediately arrested. as so many have stated, it feels so weird being in favor of the defense on a case but IMO, the evidence lies completely in favor of Zimmerman's claim of self defense, IMO JMO.

P.S-I can't wait until another trial starts in which we are all (for the most part) in agreement and can cheer on the prosecution for justice, I just don't see it in this case.

BBM--I agree. However, his absence right now is making me very nervous.

 

[Maryann123]

Can anyone link to the coroner report about him not having bruising? Haven't seen it yet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Funny thing about the coroner's report. All we have is his word as to the condition of TM's body. No pictures were taken of his hands. Of, if they did, they disappeared. Since they say they scraped his nails for DNA you would think photos would have been very important. Something else that puzzles me, is how TM lost 50% of his blood before he died, but they don't find any at the scene. Nothing is made of that, but because they didn't find GZ's blood, it's suspicious.

 

[Mahouston69]

With a bullet in the chamber all you have to do is release the safety if it has one and pull the trigger, not all that you listed above. So yes you can do that pinned to the ground. Why would GZ scream if he wasn't getting beaten etc? If he methodically planned to murder him like you detailed about he wouldn't need to scream.

I mean do you believe he was shooting with a rifle or shotgun to have recoil enough to break your nose and slam your head on the ground?? Wow :banghead: also you'd have to hold it in front of your face. Handguns of that type have minimal recoil only enough to make hand move.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

George is left handed, he claims he pulled his gun out with his right, that there was no safety or was already off and shot, literally with Trayvon on top of him...so the gun probably not in his dominant hand and right in front of his face kicked back. This is physics.

I believe they were both screaming which makes witnesses on both sides right.
Fighting for the gun, and trying to both call for help thinking the other is trying to kill them. I didn't say George methodically planned to murder him, I'm saying shooting Trayvon wasn't justified.

 

[RANCH]

That is not what cost him his life. He sadly was shot while beating a man.

Facts in the case of State vs Zimmerman.

As you have pointed out many times, according to RJ's testimony Trayvon was at his father's home and then went back to where GZ was. If he had just gone inside, this incident would have never happen. MOO.

 

[Love Never Fails]

From my research of Gallup & Pew polls last night. At this point in the trial, aproximately 80% of folks believe GZ is innocent..

Although there are only 6 Jurors in the GZ trial;

'A jury consists of twelve persons chosen to decide who has the better lawyers'.
Quote: Robert Frost

I looked at the polls on HLN and for all their shouting and rhetoric, 75% believe GZ is innocent. Telling, isn't it? If the media can create a riot and confusion they will do it!!

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Can you link to proof that TM began the altercation? That's a rhetorical question, because we all know there isn't any. But that's exactly the point - I think too many people here have bought GZ's story hook, line, and sinker. Imo, when a killer is trying to defend himself, of course he's going to say "so-and-so started it." Since the only person that could present another side of that is dead, we'll never really know.

Actually there is in the call that RJ relayed to the court.
He was at home, He is now breathing heavy, And then he sees GZ not the other way around.. HE walks up and says something to GZ and punches him in the face as per GZ who has the injuries to prove it.

I am not buying his story but it fits more with what the states witnesses brought forth than the states on theory.. or theories.. It seems to keep changing.

TM confronted GZ, He beat him and when GZ had no other choice, After screaming for help, He shot TM to save his life and person. All within the rights of the law.

 

[Karmady]

Travon's hands were under his body when the police arrived. Can anyone explain how the rain washed the blood off his hands in that position?

There probably is an explanation. But one is not necessary, since he spent much more time face up once the EMT's, LE and the coroner's office got there. jmo

 

[EquallyDivided]

i haven't said much. this because i've found much of the discussion here entirely disconcerting.

it is inconceivable to me that so many folks, the very same ones who were disgusted at the mere thought that anything negative should even be breathed about travis alexander in the arias, have taken to bashing a 17 year old victim of a murder. and that is the fact. argue all you like as to it being something else. trayvon martin did not take his own life that night. george zimmerman murdered him. the baloney excuses, the long, never-ending, maze-like attempts to explain or justify it are not based on legal statutes. i've read dozens of times that those who feel GZ is guilty are merely responding with emotion. i will refrain from calling statements like that what i feel they are, but rather, will point out that those who feel GZ is not guilty are responding to emotion just as much as anyone else. there is simply a difference between what makes one person emotional and what makes another emotional. emotions run high when core beliefs are challenged.

my core beliefs as relevant here: a 17 year old is still a child. in the United States of America, no person should be gunned down for walking down the street. a neighborhood watch person of good intention, particularly a captain, would have immediately informed the operator that he was armed. he would then have called another person in the neighborhood for back up. a 17 year old who was going to go after someone would brag about to the girl on the other end of the phone, and then he would hang up before any punches were thrown. there are more, but this is enough.

i am a well-educated, well-read, intelligent individual. i assume most here are the same. it is glaringly obvious to me that george zimmerman murdered trayvon martin. period. it is a tragedy and it is a crime.

that said, i believe he will be found not guilty. i believe that will be an unjust verdict.

MOST importantly, i believe it is deplorable and frankly unacceptable to see people talking about how riots are going to break out if zimmerman is found innocent. do people truly not see that this is just as much an example of racial profiling as was the one zimmerman engaged in? i've yet to see a single person claim that riots would be break out if zimmerman were found guilty. would it be less disastrous if the angry, gun-toting zimmerman fans rioted? that's sure some interesting logic.

at the end of the day, the parents of a 17 year old have lost their son. they have never claimed he was perfect. i beseech everyone to think of your own 17 year old, or a 17 year old you know. think about that kid. think about that kid not in terms of how you hate the way they dress, or can't stand the slang they use, of how nasty their fb page makes them look....but think about the heart of that 17 year old. for me, this is easy. i've had two at that age so far. i promise you that a 17 year old, at 5'11'' and just over 150 lbs is a lanky, skinny kid and he knows it. a 17 yo who was a good enough brother to be bringing his sibling back a snack from 7-11 (without even opening it to take some for himself, mind you), a 17 year old whose only tattoos were the names of his grandmothers and the name of his mother, that 17 year old was innocent that night when he left the house, and innocent when his life ended on the wet ground.

i predict that trayvon's parents, regardless of the verdict, will make it a mission to deal with the atrocity of a law in florida that all but begs for the murder of innocent human beings. it needs to change. IN MY OPINION

I've always said that this is tragic - but there is a huge disparity between the JA case and this one.

I'd like to see JA's comparable injuries from TA. There were none.

The evilness of JA is clearly not present in this case. The innocence of TA is not in this case.

Unless you believe the fog. IMO

 

[Perthgirl62]

there are several things that went wrong. maybe if TM had not been suspended from school and sent to live with his father this would have never happened.

JMO

Wow...that's all I can say.