George Zimmerman /Trayvon Martin General Discussion #13 Thursday July 11

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I would have to consider the testimony of the gym owner, who implied if not directly stated that GZ could not throw a punch. IMO

Yes. Showing infact that GZ was not able to be the aggressor and that he was out matched in strength and mastery.

He was beaten. His lack of skill is not something that works for the state.

 

[iluvmua]

This entire "event" happened because GZ made an assumption about TM - that TM was a and was there to commit a crime. If that wasn't provoking someone I don't know what is. It is easy to assume GZ didn't identify himself to TM because he believed TM was there to commit a crime or preparing to commit a crime, and was afraid of him. He was wrong.

there are several things that went wrong. maybe if TM had not been suspended from school and sent to live with his father this would have never happened.

JMO

 

[qwerty2013]

Hello everyone. I was told in the last thread several times that George Zimmerman's own DNA was *not* found on the gun with which he shot TM, therefore the DNA evidence could have been corrupted.


I Googled and found out in fact that isn't true. The evidence remains damning for defense, IMO.


Here's the link:

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/school-records-issue-zimmerman-murder-trial/nYcY3/


So GZ's DNA was on his gun, but contrary to his version of events, there's NO DNA from TM on GZ's gun, nor were there any traces of GZ's DNA on TM's arms. What's more, TM's DNA was found on GZ's red jacket. Facts as described in the link provided:

"SANFORD, Fla. —

A DNA expert said Wednesday tests of George Zimmerman's gun revealed the neighborhood watch volunteer's DNA on the firearm's grip -- but not Trayvon Martin's.

Florida Department of Law Enforcement DNA expert Anthony Gorgone testified that none of Zimmerman's DNA was found underneath Martin's fingernails.

Prosecutors called the DNA expert to the witness stand to refute Zimmerman's contention that he fatally shot Martin in self-defense. Zimmerman has said Martin was reaching for his firearm during a fight when he fired the gun into Martin's chest...."

This is critical, IMO, as it shows TM did not punch or bash GZ's head and face, as GZ's DNA would have been found on TM's arms and sleeves. Dead boy cannot tell his story, most heard GZ's tale and choose to believe them, but the evidence is telling, IMO.

 

[DIBSY]

The weapon was loaded with a magazine of bullets. It requires two hands, forethought, and a sliding motion on his gun to load a bullet into firing position. He couldn't have pinned to the ground.
I believe the fight was to gain control of the gun.
Screaming from both men.
Recoil broke Zimmerman's nose and his head hit the water cover.
Trayvon dies.

Fits to a T. IMO//Better than to take GZ's every word for every single thing...after learning he fabricates.....IMO

 

[EGirl]

My entire family lives in MAJOR metropolitan areas. None of us has ever needed to carry a loaded gun. Where I live, used to be called "the murder capital of the world." The only thing I ever carried was a knife...and two times...displaying those knives caused a possible attacker to back away and look for another victim. (Fact not opinion)

IMO, You can't kill someone because they rob you, rape you, or kidnap you, even in Florida, unless "you say" were in fear of great bodily harm.

I would. Jail or not.

IMO

 

[Isabelle]

Testimony said rain had washed off DNA and no one bagged his hands.

As a juror, I would see this as an opinion, not a fact. IMO

 

[Horace Finklestein]

If he was a responsible gun owner, he didn't carry with a round in the chamber.
If his arms were pinned and/ or only had use of one at any time it takes two hands on his 9mm to put a round in the chamber to slide the barrel. He couldn't have.

What are you basing that on?

 

[Mollyandme]

i agree with Bill Schaeffer on wftv who said that the "child abuse 3rd degree murder" being asked for by the state is a "hail mary."

this is so ridiculous and the prosecution has played dirty the whole time imo....even bringing these charges was a dirty political agenda. again all JMO, we will see if the sanctions hearing against the prosecution ever takes place.

anyway, i do think manslaughter had to be offered as a lesser offense, don't really see a way around that so that was obviously the right decision by the judge and was expected all along by the defense IMO. However, if the jury believes he acted in self defense, or believes that there is reasonable doubt that it wasn't self defense, that doesn't really matter, he will be aquitted.

i have every confidence that O'Mara is going to present a closing argument that will be one for the ages and that will probably end up being taught in law schools, just as I imagine some of his cross examinations throughout this case will be.

i went into this trial with an open mind. when this first happened i was horrified that GZ wasn't immediately arrested. as so many have stated, it feels so weird being in favor of the defense on a case but IMO, the evidence lies completely in favor of Zimmerman's claim of self defense, IMO JMO.

P.S-I can't wait until another trial starts in which we are all (for the most part) in agreement and can cheer on the prosecution for justice, I just don't see it in this case.

 

[logicalgirl]

Many thanks, PaintingAnemone!! Great and timely info !!! IMO
I can't get over how GZ's words are taken as gospel and anything re TM must be a lie....waaaay biased to me and will not hold water in a Court of Law...we hope!!! IMO

In my mind there is no doubt - GZ is going to do serious jail time.IMO

 

[AngelWings444]

I dont' think that GZ is awesome either...

I do think he acted in selfdefense. To me that TM does not have injuries just shows me how overpowered GZ was. That he was indeed in fear of great bodily harm and death.
Remember the law is that he only had to have REASONABLE FEAR OF... Not actual injuries or life threatening injuries.

It is horrible no matter what. Tragic.

Glad you posted!

Didn't posters who side with Zimmerman say that bruising can stop when you heart stops? That was the excuse for Trayvon not having injuries to his hands, other than the small abrasion to his left non-dominate hand. Clearly, by Trayvon's lack of injuries to his hands, he didn't punch GZ 20-30 times.

So, going with other people's theory of why no bruising on Trayvon's hands, maybe Trayvon was really beaten and the bruising didn't show up due to his death. :twocents:

Can't have it both ways...

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Who besides GZ testified they saw GZ was attacked at the T?
I believe he dropped his keys to unholster his weapon and use two hands to slide the barrel, loading the gun with a bullet into the chamber.
or to later to fabricate the crime scene evidence

In trial, The sun expert for the state said that once a bullet is loaded into the chamber you only need to pull the trigger to fire.
Since GZ weapon was loaded with a bullet in the chamber there was no need for 2 hands. He pulled and shot.

 

[Maryann123]

There was testimony by RJ, where she says TM said something to the effect of "get off, get off". What does this mean? We have no eyewitnesses to the start of the confrontation, we only have GZ's statements. Who would admit to starting the confrontation if they had just killed someone? GZ had everything to gain by making this statement. This is a one sided, skewed trial because one of the two involved is not present to give a statement. GZ and TM are the only ones who truly know what happened and only one of them has anything to gain or lose at this time. IMO

Yea, well she says it was TM yelling" help", too! So, in answer to your question, it means TM jumped on GZ, and it was him saying "get off get off".

 

[DIBSY]

Hello everyone. I was told in the last thread several times that George Zimmerman's own DNA was *not* found on the gun with which he shot TM, therefore the DNA evidence could have been corrupted.


I Googled and found out in fact that isn't true. The evidence remains damning for defense, IMO.


Here's the link:

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/school-records-issue-zimmerman-murder-trial/nYcY3/


So GZ's DNA was on his gun, but contrary to his version of events, there's NO DNA from TM on GZ's gun, nor were there any traces of GZ's DNA on TM's arms. Facts as described in the link provided:

"SANFORD, Fla. —

A DNA expert said Wednesday tests of George Zimmerman's gun revealed the neighborhood watch volunteer's DNA on the firearm's grip -- but not Trayvon Martin's.

Florida Department of Law Enforcement DNA expert Anthony Gorgone testified that none of Zimmerman's DNA was found underneath Martin's fingernails.

Prosecutors called the DNA expert to the witness stand to refute Zimmerman's contention that he fatally shot Martin in self-defense. Zimmerman has said Martin was reaching for his firearm during a fight when he fired the gun into Martin's chest...."

The Defense fails. IMOThanks bunches !!

 

[RANCH]

I too want justice for the victim TM. If GZ had not been carrying a concealed weapon and used it - this would be an entirely different case.
To me two guns does not equal a draw. One person is going to die. With one gun - one person is going to die.

I think that if GZ didn't have a weapon there's a good chance that he would have been the one who was killed. MOO.

 

[2sharpe2]

Even if he's found innocent, his life will be forever ruined. He'll be recognized where ever he goes. Where will he find a job? How will he live? And he'll always be worried due to the death threats. He is 100% innocent. My heart breaks for him.

If he is found innocent, which I am hoping than I hope he gets a book deal and makes millions, than I would do some suing!! AND this judge is a piece of work. IMO

 

[EGirl]

This entire "event" happened because GZ made an assumption about TM - that TM was a and was there to commit a crime. If that wasn't provoking someone I don't know what is. It is easy to assume GZ didn't identify himself to TM because he believed TM was there to commit a crime or preparing to commit a crime, and was afraid of him. He was wrong.

This all went south when the first punch was thrown. IMO

Tragic all the way around.

 

[magnolia]

Am I correct that one or two of the Jurors are married to an Attorney?

 

[doubt]

i haven't said much. this because i've found much of the discussion here entirely disconcerting.

it is inconceivable to me that so many folks, the very same ones who were disgusted at the mere thought that anything negative should even be breathed about travis alexander in the arias, have taken to bashing a 17 year old victim of a murder. and that is the fact. argue all you like as to it being something else. trayvon martin did not take his own life that night. george zimmerman murdered him. the baloney excuses, the long, never-ending, maze-like attempts to explain or justify it are not based on legal statutes. i've read dozens of times that those who feel GZ is guilty are merely responding with emotion. i will refrain from calling statements like that what i feel they are, but rather, will point out that those who feel GZ is not guilty are responding to emotion just as much as anyone else. there is simply a difference between what makes one person emotional and what makes another emotional. emotions run high when core beliefs are challenged.

my core beliefs as relevant here: a 17 year old is still a child. in the United States of America, no person should be gunned down for walking down the street. a neighborhood watch person of good intention, particularly a captain, would have immediately informed the operator that he was armed. he would then have called another person in the neighborhood for back up. a 17 year old who was going to go after someone would brag about to the girl on the other end of the phone, and then he would hang up before any punches were thrown. there are more, but this is enough.

i am a well-educated, well-read, intelligent individual. i assume most here are the same. it is glaringly obvious to me that george zimmerman murdered trayvon martin. period. it is a tragedy and it is a crime.

that said, i believe he will be found not guilty. i believe that will be an unjust verdict.

MOST importantly, i believe it is deplorable and frankly unacceptable to see people talking about how riots are going to break out if zimmerman is found innocent. do people truly not see that this is just as much an example of racial profiling as was the one zimmerman engaged in? i've yet to see a single person claim that riots would be break out if zimmerman were found guilty. would it be less disastrous if the angry, gun-toting zimmerman fans rioted? that's sure some interesting logic.

at the end of the day, the parents of a 17 year old have lost their son. they have never claimed he was perfect. i beseech everyone to think of your own 17 year old, or a 17 year old you know. think about that kid. think about that kid not in terms of how you hate the way they dress, or can't stand the slang they use, of how nasty their fb page makes them look....but think about the heart of that 17 year old. for me, this is easy. i've had two at that age so far. i promise you that a 17 year old, at 5'11'' and just over 150 lbs is a lanky, skinny kid and he knows it. a 17 yo who was a good enough brother to be bringing his sibling back a snack from 7-11 (without even opening it to take some for himself, mind you), a 17 year old whose only tattoos were the names of his grandmothers and the name of his mother, that 17 year old was innocent that night when he left the house, and innocent when his life ended on the wet ground.

i predict that trayvon's parents, regardless of the verdict, will make it a mission to deal with the atrocity of a law in florida that all but begs for the murder of innocent human beings. it needs to change. IN MY OPINION

 

[Isabelle]

Yes. Showing infact that GZ was not able to be the aggressor and that he was out matched in strength and mastery.

He was beaten. His lack of skill is not something that works for the state.

Reasonable doubt would be lack of evidence of injuries to TM's hands, knuckles. A bruise is bleeding in tissues and begins immediately on impact as micro capillaries rupture. This bruising would be evident even though TM was killed. IMO

 

[SassyMom]

I have a real-life analogy to this event. Forgive the length of this post, but I'd like to lay it out to explain the difference between the Trayvon killing and what happened to my own son.

One night, early in the evening but after the sun went down, my son (16 years old) was walking through our neighborhood. We'd lived in the neighborhood for 13 years at this point in time. My son is white. He was wearing jeans, t-shirt and high-top sneakers. He was about 5'11" and weighed about 105-110 lbs. His hair was about 18" long and curly (he was, and is today, a 'metal head'.)

He walked out the door of our home and starting walking up the street, on the sidewalk that runs in front of our house and through the neighborhood. At about the same time, a car pulled onto our street from a street that divides our neighborhood from the neighborhood to our north. As the car was moving up the street it started to slow down when it got to where my son was walking. The car continued to move slowly, at the pace my son was walking until they both reached a cross street. My son turned right and the car turned right and continued keeping pace with my son's walking speed. It was a short street he'd turned onto and at the next corner my son turned right again and the car turned left, pulled into a driveway and the driver got out. It was his house.
The man is about 6'1", 230 lbs. He works as a city firefighter, trains in MMA style fighting (as a hobby), and is extremely fit. He's a huge mountain of muscle. He's dressed in cargo shorts, sandals and a sleeveless t-shirt.

As my son was walking he heard footsteps behind him and turned and saw that the man was following him. This alarmed him because he knew who he was. My son kept walking down this long street and kept hearing footsteps behind him. My son became increasingly alarmed from this. He turned right. The man turned right and continued to follow behind him. My son crossed the street on a diagonal because at this point he was really getting scared, and the man started to cross the street on the diagonal and continued following my son on the other side of the street. My son spun around and shouted, "Why are you following me?!" and stood facing him from about 20 feet away. The man stopped and looked at him. Then he started bending and stretching and said aloud to apparently no one in particular "looks like a good night for a run" and turned around and started to jog in the opposite direction back to his house.

There was zero reason for this man to follow my son. The man personally knew him and knew where he lived. There had been no criminal activity in the neighborhood where witnesses described the perpetrators to be skinny, white teenage males with long curly hair. But he knew my son because he knew me, because I had an order of protection against him upheld by a local justice court. The only purpose of his actions was to intimidate my teenage son, and indirectly intimidate me. He did it out of hatred, spite and malice. He intended to frighten my son and indirectly, me.

Two days later, when I was telling the police officer familiar with our saga, the events that happened a few nights prior, he informed me that this lunatic didn't do anything legally wrong. It was his neighborhood and he didn't touch my son. He didn't even speak to my son. Despite the OOP, this could happen every day for the duration of the OOP and there was nothing I could do about it.

My son has a short fuse, and he is not afraid to defend himself when threatened or attacked. I thank God that my son did not physically confront this psycho because this man would have hurt him. This SOB knows the law and knows that he could beat my son to his heart's content if my son threw the first punch, but my son didn't (Thank God) and therefore the situation was diffused because my son didn't react with violence.

HAD my son done so, and HAD this man killed my son (with or without a gun) he could be charged with Murder 2 because all those adjectives many in this forum use to describe Zimmerman's actions (inaccurately) were actually the motives of this crazy SOB. He WAS stalking my son, he WAS trying to intimidate my son, he WAS looking for an altercation with my son. He did it with hatred, malice and spite. But unlike Trayvon, my son was known to the man who was following him. Unlike Trayvon, my son didn't share the physical characteristics of criminals at large who'd committed crimes in the neighborhood. And unlike Trayvon, my son did not confront with violence.

I see NO evidence of murder in the 2nd degree of Trayvon Martin by George Zimmerman, especially when I contrast his actions with the actions of someone in real life who pursued a teenager through his neighborhood with depravity, hatred and spite.

IMO