George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin General discussion #4

[corundogs]

Thank you for being honest. It seriously helps these sorts of discussions.

What you have just done is applied "fear for your life" as a reasonable individual.

Your statement (not trying to get personal with this; several others have made this claim) was:

On the other hand, so George's actions that caused Trayvon to fear for his life and allegedly punch him to get away from a creepy guy following him with unknown intentions have no bearing???​

If you do not feel Martin was justified in killing Zimmerman, how does that reconcile with him allegedly being in peril of death?

Going off of that, if he was not in fear to the extent that deadly force is admissible, he has a duty to retreat under Florida law.

These are the facts as we know them.

Certainly, this changes if Zimmerman tried to "apprehend" Martin, or if Zimmerman elicited some sort of physical threat that prevented Martin from retreating. However, there is not any evidence that this occurred. In this scenario, Martin would have had the duty to retreat before using self-defense. Which we know he had plenty of time to do - over 2 minutes according to the 911 call.

I believe my "in fear for his life" was using the person's words I replied to. If not, I stand behind my words anyway.

I happen to believe that George did try to detain him. I believe that based on my own opinions and the witness testimony.

As far as retreating, well he had already run once and George was still following him. I am not sure how far you think Trayvon should have run?

Running to the home that was not his own, with only a small child inside of it, is not smart. No one there to defend him if the guy who has already followed him for quite awhile continues to follow/chase/pursue/whatever (this may sound like a repeat based on the reply I just sent you in a private message! LOL!!)

George did not tell Trayvon why he was following him. Which means George not making that clear to him means that Trayvon has no idea why...just that it is happening.

 

[iluvmua]

He went to work the next day? Call me crazy, but if I killed someone last night, I'd be out of my mind, completely incapacitated, today. IMO.

IIRC, his boss told him he had to come in..... I don't know if it was for work or just to see how he was doing but his boss told him he had to come in.

JMO

 

[mom23gr8kids]

You can keep repeating that his was getting slammed on the sidewalk so he shot him, however that doesn't make it true. His body wasn't that close to the sidewalk, and in the walkthrough GZ says something to the effect of it being the corner of sidewalk so I'm not sure yet about the truth of that statement.

My question to you is, what if it was mutual combat? Both made bad decisions, so I submit that neither one was going to back down. Kinda like....
GZ: These punks always get away.....
TM: How dare this creepy cracker judge me.....
TM: Why are you following me.....
GZ: What are you doing around here.....

You see GZ wasn't going to acquiesce to TM, he was in his neighborhood, he doesn't have to explain himself, TM has to explain himself.

Then a fight ensues. My problem is, just because you are losing doesn't now mean you can shoot.

Do you understand what I'm saying?

Based on what I know of the case I could totally see this being how it likely went down.

BUT my remaining issue goes back to RJ's statement that TM said he was right at the back of his house. So if he was there then how did he get all the way back down near the T intersection again? In George's statement he said he was always on what would be the top of the T going first one way then turning and going back when the interaction with TM happened. So the only way their placement makes sense to me is that TM came back from "by his dad's house" to confront GZ. I for sure wouldn't see GZ being able to drag him back that far. And I also wouldn't see that TM would call that placement "right by the back of his house".

IMO

 

[Snoods]

I'm going to bite the bullet and tell everyone why I'm on the fence. There are a lot of brilliant people here (I'm not including myself) and I'd love to hear anyone's feedback. Starting with GZ, I believe he thought he was doing the right thing. BUT, I would shudder if he were in my neighborhood driving around packing heat. I don't think he had ANY business getting out of his car and chasing after Trayvon, regardless of what Trayvon was doing. He should not have left his truck. Emotionally, I want him to go to jail and throw away the key. But then here's what my pea brain thinks: getting out of his truck wasn't illegal. GZ did have wounds on the back of his head and his face consistent with his story. If the defense can prove that Trayvon attacked GZ and GZ was scared for his life, won't the jury have to go with a lesser charge, maybe manslaughter or acquittal? Don't get me wrong, I want him to go to jail. My heart breaks for Trayvon's family. I'm just concerned the State won't be able to prove it wasn't self defense. I hope this makes sense. Okay, I'm getting ready to duck tomatoes.

 

[Tulessa]

When hubby gets up from his nap, I'll get him to take his cell outside. We'll figure this one out. And yes, it's raining.

Yup! It's a very faint swishing noise. Thank you DH!! When dryer conditions are around, it will be more of a faint crackle. HTH! DH didn't believe me, when I told him I could hear it snow. It may have something to do with my Cherokee bloodline. I dunno.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

Ok, now let's bring out TM's checkered past if we're going to bring up Zimmerman's.

 

[Mendara]

you can keep repeating that his was getting slammed on the sidewalk so he shot him, however that doesn't make it true. His body wasn't that close to the sidewalk, and in the walkthrough gz says something to the effect of it being the corner of sidewalk so i'm not sure yet about the truth of that statement.

My question to you is, what if it was mutual combat? Both made bad decisions, so i submit that neither one was going to back down. Kinda like....
Gz: These punks always get away.....
Tm: How dare this creepy cracker judge me.....
Tm: Why are you following me.....
Gz: What are you doing around here.....

You see gz wasn't going to acquiesce to tm, he was in his neighborhood, he doesn't have to explain himself, tm has to explain himself.


then a fight ensues. My problem is, just because you are losing doesn't now mean you can shoot. do you understand what i'm saying?

i do!!

 

[iluvmua]

To me, the whole case hinges on one fact. The police told GZ to stop following TM. He disobeyed. After that, everything that followed was his fault. I don't care what anyone else says about self-defense. He put himself in that position, HE was on the offensive. JMO.

This has been stated over and over again "We don't need you to do that" is not the same as 'sir, I do not want you to follow this person'.

Sean, the guy who took the call even said they are not allowed to give orders, only suggestions. They could end up being sued by someone if they were allowed to make order like the police can.

http://www.local10.com/news/george-...fke/-/1717324/20724894/-/39evjgz/-/index.html

During his testimony June 24, Noffke added that he was trained to avoid giving callers direct orders to avoid liability.

 

[corundogs]

Ok, it's been awhile since I read and heard the police report, etc. So I went back to listen to GZ tell the police how he shot TM. Well, he had said that TM had his hands on GZ mouth and nose and he then couldn't breath, then said he tried to get up and his shirt went up and TM saw the gun and said "you are going to die tonight mother f..ker then GZ stopped him and shot him. Here is the problem I have with this. How could these screams come from someone who's mouth and nose are being covered? Did the screams on this 911 call seem to continue, then after the shot there was silence?

Exactly!

I have based my opinion and my discussions on this trial based on my own common sense (not the same for everyone, granted!), reports and evidence.

I don't think George needs to go to jail for following Trayvon. I SURE AS HECK don't think he should have been killed himself - and I hope to HECK no one else does either!!!

However, based on what I have heard/seen with my own eyes from GZ's own words, I think he should go to jail for taking someone's life.

If someone is involved in something - anything - with another person...and one of them ends up dead...without laws being broken before hand, that person is still responsible for the death of that person.

And that person should pay. The jury gets to decide for what I guess.

I am not convinced yet at all that this is 2nd Degree - and they will have to convince me 100%. I do however, think this is manslaughter.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

They're bringing up this witnesses tweets but not the ones from Rachel/Dee Dee/ Diamond about drunk driving, getting high/drunk, hating Zimmerman, etc? I don't understand...

 

[mom23gr8kids]

What is going on? Is the state now trying to impeach its own witness with FB?

 

[sacrablue]

Every law abiding citizen in this country who can pass the background check and registration requirements of his/her state or municipality has the absolute right to have a gun.

That makes me feel safe because I know at least 2 nut cases with a permit.

 

[legalmania]

BBM

How do you know how much the settlement was? I thought I heard the amount would not be disclosed. Sometimes it's better to settle than go to court. As an example, if it's going to cost you $50,000 in attorney fees even if you win, then you settle for $20,000 and you are still ahead of the game. My insurance company paid to have this idiot's bumper fixed, even though the bumper had rust on it from months or years prior. He claimed my daughter backed into him, and I wanted to fight it. According to the insurance company, it wasn't worth it to fight. It was a principle to me, but not to them.

According to most articles they say it was undisclosed, but somehow had information it was a million or more. I use to do civil litigation and I know how it works. It is very hard to get a settlement that high, without a trial. The records are sealed. The parents plan on suing GZ next. So it should be interesting to see what happens. You should have fought it I would have.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...g-complex-settled-1-million-article-1.1308943

 

[iluvmua]

The 9-11 operator testified under oath that they do not give instructions or orders. GZ was not told to do anything by LE.

They're bringing up this witnesses tweets but not the ones from Rachel/Dee Dee/ Diamond about drunk driving, getting high/drunk, hating Zimmerman, etc? I don't understand...

Probably because she has already left for the day IMO

 

[sorrell skye]

This guy needs to educate himself about Twitter. The prosecutor thought he had a "gotcha" moment. Epic fail.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

Probably because she has already left for the day IMO

Well they better bring her back if they start going down the social media road. I know Rachel/Dee Dee/Diamond Gene erased a lot of hers but there's still records of them.

 

[corundogs]

LMAO!!!!

I AM DYING at this whole thing over Twitter!

Seriously, it makes no sense at all to so many people!!!

Someone CAN follow you without you following them. That's how celebrities get 40 MILLION people following them...but they may only be following 2 people.

But that was just amusing!!!!! As some would say "kids today!" LOL!!

 

[Mendara]

I'm going to bite the bullet and tell everyone why I'm on the fence. There are a lot of brilliant people here (I'm not including myself) and I'd love to hear anyone's feedback. Starting with GZ, I believe he thought he was doing the right thing. BUT, I would shudder if he were in my neighborhood driving around packing heat. I don't think he had ANY business getting out of his car and chasing after Trayvon, regardless of what Trayvon was doing. He should not have left his truck. Emotionally, I want him to go to jail and throw away the key. But then here's what my pea brain thinks: getting out of his truck wasn't illegal. GZ did have wounds on the back of his head and his face consistent with his story. If the defense can prove that Trayvon attacked GZ and GZ was scared for his life, won't the jury have to go with a lesser charge, maybe manslaughter or acquittal? Don't get me wrong, I want him to go to jail. My heart breaks for Trayvon's family. I'm just concerned the State won't be able to prove it wasn't self defense. I hope this makes sense. Okay, I'm getting ready to duck tomatoes.

You are the voice of reason yes. I agree with you here. I think honestly they got into a fight and GZ used his gun because he was losing the fight. A kid is dead because of two people GZ and TM who assumed each one wanted to hurt the other. SAD situation.

 

[iluvmua]

Exactly!

I have based my opinion and my discussions on this trial based on my own common sense (not the same for everyone, granted!), reports and evidence.

I don't think George needs to go to jail for following Trayvon. I SURE AS HECK don't think he should have been killed himself - and I hope to HECK no one else does either!!!

However, based on what I have heard/seen with my own eyes from GZ's own words, I think he should go to jail for taking someone's life.

If someone is involved in something - anything - with another person...and one of them ends up dead...without laws being broken before hand, that person is still responsible for the death of that person.

And that person should pay. The jury gets to decide for what I guess.

I am not convinced yet at all that this is 2nd Degree - and they will have to convince me 100%. I do however, think this is manslaughter.

He didn't just take someone's life because he wanted to, he did it because he had no other choice. This is self defense.

The state is saying George wanted to shoot Trayvon and if the state says that George wanted to shoot Trayvon they need to back it up with factual evidence.

They will have to convince me 100% that they even have a case at all.

JMO

 

[NotMyselfNEMore]

Doesn't follower on Twitter mean that person is following the 'tweeter'? I barely use Twitter, but there are people i don't know who appear as following me.
Thanks to anyone that knows!