George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin General discussion #4

[faw720]

GZ neighbor still on the witness stand. Her 911 call was played & you could hear all the screaming & then the gunshot. For whatever reason, it made GZ very uneasy. He looked down & sometimes he appeared to close his eyes & then he would look down again. First time I've ever seen him look anything other than bored. If I were on the jury, I would have questions as to why it made him so obviously uncomfortable.

 

[mom23gr8kids]

OKay I'm pretty ignorant of Twitter also. So question for some of you:

Could that have been suggestions for her to follow? I do know of FB it will suggest friends based on where you live, work, other friends, pages you like, etc. Could this be similar?

 

[legalmania]

In your opinion. Since you don't know GZ, you have no basis for making such a claim other than an opinion based on speculation based on not knowing the person you're opining about.

That's is why I said I think as what I think. Is that cool with you?

 

[sacrablue]

Dispatcher: are you following him?
GZ: Yeah
Dispatcher: OK we don't need you to do that.
GZ: OK

If you can't follow directions you should not carry a gun.

 

[sorrell skye]

Doesn't follower on Twitter mean that person is following the 'tweeter'? I barely use Twitter, but there are people i don't know who appear as following me.
Thanks to anyone that knows!

"Followers" are people that are following you.

"Following" means the people that you are following.

You can have followers without following them back.

 

[Nezumi]

The only racial profiling was done by TM. jmo

As were the only racial slurs used, according to testimony now in evidence.

 

[callyn]

OKay I'm pretty ignorant of Twitter also. So question for some of you:

Could that have been suggestions for her to follow? I do know of FB it will suggest friends based on where you live, work, other friends, pages you like, etc. Could this be similar?

Yes. On my Twitter home page they always list suggestions.

 

[iluvmua]

GZ neighbor still on the witness stand. Her 911 call was played & you could hear all the screaming & then the gunshot. For whatever reason, it made GZ very uneasy. He looked down & sometimes he appeared to close his eyes & then he would look down again. First time I've ever seen him look anything other than bored. If I were on the jury, I would have questions as to why it made him so obviously uncomfortable.

JMO, But It would make me uneasy if I had just heard the call where I ended up shooting and killing someone.

I honestly don't think he even wanted to pull the trigger, Trayvon would not stop hitting his head against the ground, So George did what was necessary in his mind in order to stop the treat.

 

[Arishia]

Context, context, context... standing in someone's yard at night in the rain when you fit the description of people who have committed burglaries in the area is suspicious. Context is important. GZ didn't know if he had just broken into a place, was planning to, or none of the above, hence the call to non-emergency 9-11. LE needed help in getting a description of TM. He did nothing to warrant TM attacking him.

Who attacked who is not an established fact. Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

We have whittled down to essential cultural questions though; just how far do citizens get to go at "policing" one another, and what are the rules of engagement. (Lucky for me, this stuff doesn't come up around my neighborhood.)

 

[Horace Finklestein]

Dispatcher: are you following him?
GZ: Yeah
Dispatcher: OK we don't need you to do that.
GZ: OK

9-11 operator Noffke pointed out it was not an instruction or an order...so what is the meaning of this post? GZ did nothing illegal or wrong.

 

[Maryann123]

Oh I think the state has very compiling evidence in my eyes. The evidence was presented by the Forensic Criminalist Tech. She said they found the bullet casing under TM. That is huge!!!

Nine MM eject to the right. How did the casing end up TM then? Something isn't right. I am still attempting to play it out in my mind how that 9 mm casing ended up under TM body facing down when semi-automatics eject bullets to the right.

Another big evidence, in my opinion, if TM was on top of GZ, according to his story, and GZ shot him on the right side. He would fall on top of GZ. I did not see blood spatter on his coat when the criminalist tech took pictures at the police station.

Another physic evidence, in my opinion, if TM fell on top of GZ when he was shot, he would not be able to clutch his chest, then fall on top of GZ before GZ rolls from out from under him allowing TM to follow as the police et al found him; that is, face down with his hands clutching his lower chest.

So there is evidence, subtle maybe, to me this is just the beginning that is huge to discredit GZ's story.

JMHO

I need to know why it was huge that the casing was found under TM's body? If it was under his body, why did it take a metal detector to find it?

TM was moved several times. After he was shot, we don't know which way he fell. GZ had to at least move him a little (or a lot) in order to get out from under him. One of the first officers to respond, turned him over to start CPR. According to one of the officers/wittiness, there was NO blood found on the sidewalk or grass. Didn't TM bleed? We've seen pictures of him lying on his stomach.

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/06/25/george-zimmerman-trial-live-blog-day-2

2:19 p.m. ET: The shell casing was found by using a metal detector, according to Smith. She searched along the sidewalk and in between the buildings for blood evidence. She says she used a flashlight to look and didn't locate any blood at the scene (not even where Martin's body was found).

If it's suspicious that none of GZ's blood was found at the scene, what does that mean for TM? You can't tell me he didn't bleed at least as much as GZ did.

The next "big thing" is the lack of blood on GZ's jacket. If the amount of blood coming out of TM wasn't enough to make a spot in the grass, just maybe it wasn't dripping like some would expect.

Whatever position TM was in at the time of his death, is the angle the momentum would have taken him. I'm not saying he couldn't have stood on his own either. It's all nothing but a guess at this point. I'd love to know what the white prints on the front of GZ's jacket are. It almost looks like muddy foot prints. Maybe it was processed for blood, but you would think that would have been done after evidence photos were taken.

 

[m00c0w]

You can keep repeating that his was getting slammed on the sidewalk so he shot him, however that doesn't make it true. His body wasn't that close to the sidewalk, and in the walkthrough GZ says something to the effect of it being the corner of sidewalk so I'm not sure yet about the truth of that statement.

My question to you is, what if it was mutual combat? Both made bad decisions, so I submit that neither one was going to back down. Kinda like....
GZ: These punks always get away.....
TM: How dare this creepy cracker judge me.....
TM: Why are you following me.....
GZ: What are you doing around here.....

You see GZ wasn't going to acquiesce to TM, he was in his neighborhood, he doesn't have to explain himself, TM has to explain himself.

Then a fight ensues. My problem is, just because you are losing doesn't now mean you can shoot.

Do you understand what I'm saying?

I understand completely what you're saying. I agree that one cannot punch someone and then shoot them after the other person gets the better of them. I feel that if Zimmerman tried to "apprehend" Martin by using force, he should get the maximum sentence Florida provides for second degree murder. I have said this several times. However, the facts as we know them do not point to this at this time.

I was simply answering your question, but adding that if the head injuries were being sustained, it's a game-changer.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

Who attacked who is not an established fact. Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

We have whittled down to essential cultural questions though; just how far do citizens get to go at "policing" one another, and what are the rules of engagement. (Lucky for me, this stuff doesn't come up around my neighborhood.)

Actually I think it is, there are witnesses placing TM on top of GZ and photographic evidence of his injuries. it's reasonable to use a little common sense about what we know so far.

 

[Suzanna in Arizona]

He went to work the next day? Call me crazy, but if I killed someone last night, I'd be out of my mind, completely incapacitated, today. IMO.

I cannot recall where I heard this, but other posters probably can set me straight. But I heard that George went to work the next day to let them know that he would probably be off work for a long time, because of the shooting. I understood that he did not work, just reported to his bosses why he was about to be off work. Please feel free to set me straight on this.

 

[corundogs]

Based on what I know of the case I could totally see this being how it likely went down.

BUT my remaining issue goes back to RJ's statement that TM said he was right at the back of his house. So if he was there then how did he get all the way back down near the T intersection again? In George's statement he said he was always on what would be the top of the T going first one way then turning and going back when the interaction with TM happened. So the only way their placement makes sense to me is that TM came back from "by his dad's house" to confront GZ. I for sure wouldn't see GZ being able to drag him back that far. And I also wouldn't see that TM would call that placement "right by the back of his house".

IMO

That T area is not that far from the unit. Those are buildings with multiple units.

I think he was 2 or 3 buildings down. He was "in the back" of them. That pathway is the same pathway of the building of the girlfriend (I hate having to designate since some people pick out that minutia and make it the whole point...it would just be easier to say "his house" but it wasn't...so whatever)

And again, not going back to that unit was actually very smart. The only one home was a child. No adults there. Why on earth would you go to a place where no one is home to defend you with someone following you? I sure hope none of you ever do that if you are put in that situation!!!

On the other hand, he is a young black man. Him running up to someone else's unit, at night in the rain, saying "someone is following me! Help me! Let me in!"

Yeah, right! He knows THAT WOULD NEVER FLY! Who would let them in? I wouldn't. And again, I hope none of you would either if you are ever in that situation. It is what it is!!!

The state of society we live in today. I wish that was not the case.

Trayvon was in a strange neighborhood - not because he didn't belong there, but that's the facts!

In his mind - and again, I don't think there is a person alive who could convince me otherwise - he was being chased. He was on the defensive.

George's actions put him in that situation. I think George should pay for those actions.

 

[Lovelymountains]

So Trayvon's actions that caused George to fear for his life and use his gun to end the threat have no bearing?

JMO

If Trayvon would have not punched George in the face and started slamming his head into the sidewalk (which is illegal) he would still be alive.

Your talking like George wanted to kill Trayvon for no reason at all and there is NO evidence to back that up.

JMO

Tryvon punching George in the face and started slamming his head into the sidewalk is not a done deal. I don't believe it happened.

 

[m00c0w]

I believe my "in fear for his life" was using the person's words I replied to. If not, I stand behind my words anyway.

I happen to believe that George did try to detain him. I believe that based on my own opinions and the witness testimony.

As far as retreating, well he had already run once and George was still following him. I am not sure how far you think Trayvon should have run?

Running to the home that was not his own, with only a small child inside of it, is not smart. No one there to defend him if the guy who has already followed him for quite awhile continues to follow/chase/pursue/whatever (this may sound like a repeat based on the reply I just sent you in a private message! LOL!!)

George did not tell Trayvon why he was following him. Which means George not making that clear to him means that Trayvon has no idea why...just that it is happening.

The threat has to be imminent - which pretty much means you retreat until you can retreat no more - for a non-deadly force self defense claim. Once he gets to his house or is inside his house, SYG starts becoming more applicable. It would be necessary to show that Zimmerman actually came onto the property, though.

:moo:

 

[Arishia]

I'm going to bite the bullet and tell everyone why I'm on the fence. There are a lot of brilliant people here (I'm not including myself) and I'd love to hear anyone's feedback. Starting with GZ, I believe he thought he was doing the right thing. BUT, I would shudder if he were in my neighborhood driving around packing heat. I don't think he had ANY business getting out of his car and chasing after Trayvon, regardless of what Trayvon was doing. He should not have left his truck. Emotionally, I want him to go to jail and throw away the key. But then here's what my pea brain thinks: getting out of his truck wasn't illegal. GZ did have wounds on the back of his head and his face consistent with his story. If the defense can prove that Trayvon attacked GZ and GZ was scared for his life, won't the jury have to go with a lesser charge, maybe manslaughter or acquittal? Don't get me wrong, I want him to go to jail. My heart breaks for Trayvon's family. I'm just concerned the State won't be able to prove it wasn't self defense. I hope this makes sense. Okay, I'm getting ready to duck tomatoes.

:goodpost:

 

[mom23gr8kids]

Yes. On my Twitter home page they always list suggestions.

So what they were just looking at on her Twitter could have been those suggestions. Especially since she said "I could follow them if I click here".

Thanks. I have a twitter but never log into it because it is too confusing and I just don't like the format. I prefer FB

 

[iluvmua]

I cannot recall where I heard this, but other posters probably can set me straight. But I heard that George went to work the next day to let them know that he would probably be off work for a long time, because of the shooting. I understood that he did not work, just reported to his bosses why he was about to be off work. Please feel free to set me straight on this.

IIRC, This is what happened.

JMO