George Zimmerman /Trayvon Martin General Discussion #6

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I also think that Trayvon didn't want this stranger to know where he lived, and that is why he hesitated going straight home. We know that Trayvon felt he was being followed and didn't understand why. I feel this whole thing was a terrible tragedy, and could have been avoided with some communication, between the two of them.

I have begun to believe that Trayvon did try to go home. Over a year ago in the locked threads, Concerned Papa and I discussed the timeline and distances.

I went back to those threads and then remeasured the distances and re-figured the times in light of the timeline. Here is what I came up with:

The underlined times are from the police call log, the other times are accumulated time from my notes on the recorded call - and come at the end of the comment/event logged. If you add those times to the beginning time logged as the connection to the Sanford PD non emergency system, you get the actual time.

19:09:34 CALL CONNECTED

<SNIP>

02:06:65 **** he's running.
Dispatcher: He's running? Which way is he running?
02:09:47 (seat belt alarm)
Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the
neighborhood. (car door slam)
02:14:18
Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he's heading towards?
Zimmerman: The back entrance…****ing (unintelligible)
02:22:36
19:11:59 SUBJ NOW RUNNING TOWARDS BACK ENTRANCE OF COMPLEX
Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah (wind noises)
02:25:20
Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.
Zimmerman: Ok

<SNIP>

02:38:14
(Wind noises stop some time in here)

<SNIP>

04:11:00 (recording of call ends)
19:13:41 COMPL NEW REQ LEO 1045 BEFORE 1056
19:16:00 Time approximate - call with girlfriend ends after she hears
interchange with Trayvon and unknown follower (cell company on logs calls by the minute - this call could have ended any time from 19:15:01 to 19:16:00)
19:17:00 Officer Ricardo Ayalla dispatched/arrived
19:17:11 Officer Timothy Smith arrived. As he arrived notified by dispatch
of shots fired.
Here's what works for me for the timing:

Martin's path was the shortest route to get back to where he was staying. If he took a shortcut between townhouses to get off the main road, then walked to the mail boxes next to the club house he would have passed Zimmerman just as Zimmerman told the operator "He's coming to check me out." at 19:10:50. Martin told his friend that he was taking shelter - probably under the mailbox structure - then talked to her about the "creepy *advertiser censored* cracker" watching him. He told her he was going to run and their call dropped before 19:12. Zimmerman said "He's running" at 19:11:40.

At 19:11:48 Zimmerman slams his car door. The dispatcher hears that and wind noises, asks if Zimmerman is following. At 19:12:12 Zimmerman says OK when told he doesn't need to follow. A minute and forty three second later, Zimmerman's call ends at 19:13:45.

During his video taped walk through the day after the shooting, Zimmerman claims he stayed on the phone while walking across the block to look for a street number (and claims that is because the dispatcher asked him for one which was a lie) and while he was walking back Martin jumped him. The timing does NOT work.

This distance from Zimmerman's truck, across that block then back to where he claims Martin jumped him is 330, average walking speed would cover that in 75 seconds. Zimmerman would have been jumped before he got off the phone with Sanford PD and minutes before the 911 calls began and the shot was heard.

The distance from the mailboxes to the sidewalk T is a little over 400 feet, the distance from the T to where Martin was staying is about the same. It would take about 90 seconds to cover each distance at a walk. Martin could have been home by 19:15 if all he had done was walk - but after their last call connected at 19:12 he told his friend he'd lost the guy and he was almost home, then said the guy was following again.

I think Zimmerman either walked or drove to the end of the block and Martin saw him and turned back up the path to get away from his stalker. I suspect Zimmerman drove to the end of the block, towards the rear entrance where he'd told the dispatcher the "suspect" was running. Martin could have easily seen Zimmerman's truck as it passed (or paused) the end of the sidewalk. Zimmerman could have seen Martin - maybe he turned his truck so the headlights shined down the sidewalk.

Zimmerman then doubled back to intercept Martin at the other end of the block. If the extra distance and time is added to when Zimmerman said Martin ran from the mailboxes, that puts the two of them back at the T at just after 19:16 - the same time Martin's last call was disconnected, right when the first 911 call about the yelling begins and the right timing for the shot to be fired and Officer Smith to be notified of a shot fired at 19:17:11.

One of the constant refrains has been "Why didn't Martin just go home?" This scenario explains it - he was trying to just go straight home, but Zimmerman was stalking him and Martin doubled back to try to avoid the "creepy *advertiser censored* cracker".

Every bit of this is my theory an my opinion, from the times I measured from the recording of Zimmerman's call to NEN, my measurements of distances from Google Earth, my figures based on average walking speed, etc.

My opinion and just my opinion!

By the way, this STILL does not explain who started the physical confrontation, which seems to the determinate factor whether Zimmerman is culpable for second degree murder.
 
How does his written and audio statement that he was on top of Trayvon, spread out Trayvon's hands and arms and held him there until LE arrived (his words) add up to Trayvon's arms and hands being folded up under his body?

I understand LE does this, but in this case, there are pictures of Trayvon's body with his arms tucked under his body. GZ's own words don't match the evidence regarding the placement of the body. Did he move it back? How did Trayvon end up the way he did if GZ is telling the truth?


I wonder if this point will be elaborated on. No one here seems to have an answer to this. Hmmm....
 
I am having the same issue with GZ's story. IMO, GZ was astonishingly calm after all of this went down and even now during the trial. GZ never flinches at the site of TM's body when they show that picture but GZ certainly got annoyed or upset (or showed the first sign of emotion) today when they accidentally showed his address and personal information on the projector. GZ's behavior is just odd to me and I can see why he would be perceived as creepy. IMO.

Indeed, he reminds me of other defendents who only show emotion or animation in court when it pertains to their own feelings. IMO
 
If I remember correctly there are only 3 street in that complex. It's odd that GZ is the head of the neighborhood watch yet he can't remember 3 street names. Ijs.


MOO

See I took it not that he did not know the street names but that he was just unsure at that moment which street he was on. MOO
 
Sorry if this has been posted already, but FWIW, GZ did not include the word "homey" in his written statement, which as I understand from reading Reader's account of today's testimony, he wrote out immediately after giving his verbal statement.
 
Actually it is quite possible for a bullet to destroy the heart completely YET the person can be conscious and MOBILE for 20 seconds or so (that is not my opinion that is fact). Theoretically they can also shoot back or otherwise continue to fight during that period of time.

I read that many years ago when researching the use of firearms for self defense. A shot taking out the brain is the ONLY guarantee they will stop instantly.


Did anyone else hear that the bullet also passed through and collapsed TM's lung? I remember seeing that somewhere. Wouldn't that negate the fact that TM was able to speak afterwards?
 
But wasn't it noted that as the Neighborhood Watch guy, HIS job was to be the one that made those calls? I thought it was said that people called him with issues and his responsibility was to call and make the reports?

If you look at the reports, most of them are from things GZ witnessed, not from neighbors reporting things to him and him calling in on their behalf. JMO
 
Indeed, he reminds me of other defendents who only show emotion or animation in court when it pertains to their own feelings. IMO

I don't think I've seen him show any emotion at all in court - he just sits there looking sad and defeated. The only expression I see him making are simple eye movements, looking down sometimes and then looking up again.

Very stoic.
 
Did anyone else hear that the bullet also passed through and collapsed TM's lung? I remember seeing that somewhere. Wouldn't that negate the fact that TM was able to speak afterwards?

All he is reported to have said is, "you got me". I would think you could say that a second or two after being shot.
 
I have begun to believe that Trayvon did try to go home. Over a year ago in the locked threads, Concerned Papa and I discussed the timeline and distances.

I went back to those threads and then remeasured the distances and re-figured the times in light of the timeline. Here is what I came up with:


Here's what works for me for the timing:

Martin's path was the shortest route to get back to where he was staying. If he took a shortcut between townhouses to get off the main road, then walked to the mail boxes next to the club house he would have passed Zimmerman just as Zimmerman told the operator "He's coming to check me out." at 19:10:50. Martin told his friend that he was taking shelter - probably under the mailbox structure - then talked to her about the "creepy *advertiser censored* cracker" watching him. He told her he was going to run and their call dropped before 19:12. Zimmerman said "He's running" at 19:11:40.

At 19:11:48 Zimmerman slams his car door. The dispatcher hears that and wind noises, asks if Zimmerman is following. At 19:12:12 Zimmerman says OK when told he doesn't need to follow. A minute and forty three second later, Zimmerman's call ends at 19:13:45.

During his video taped walk through the day after the shooting, Zimmerman claims he stayed on the phone while walking across the block to look for a street number (and claims that is because the dispatcher asked him for one which was a lie) and while he was walking back Martin jumped him. The timing does NOT work.

This distance from Zimmerman's truck, across that block then back to where he claims Martin jumped him is 330, average walking speed would cover that in 75 seconds. Zimmerman would have been jumped before he got off the phone with Sanford PD and minutes before the 911 calls began and the shot was heard.

The distance from the mailboxes to the sidewalk T is a little over 400 feet, the distance from the T to where Martin was staying is about the same. It would take about 90 seconds to cover each distance at a walk. Martin could have been home by 19:15 if all he had done was walk - but after their last call connected at 19:12 he told his friend he'd lost the guy and he was almost home, then said the guy was following again.

I think Zimmerman either walked or drove to the end of the block and Martin saw him and turned back up the path to get away from his stalker. I suspect Zimmerman drove to the end of the block, towards the rear entrance where he'd told the dispatcher the "suspect" was running. Martin could have easily seen Zimmerman's truck as it passed (or paused) the end of the sidewalk. Zimmerman could have seen Martin - maybe he turned his truck so the headlights shined down the sidewalk.

Zimmerman then doubled back to intercept Martin at the other end of the block. If the extra distance and time is added to when Zimmerman said Martin ran from the mailboxes, that puts the two of them back at the T at just after 19:16 - the same time Martin's last call was disconnected, right when the first 911 call about the yelling begins and the right timing for the shot to be fired and Officer Smith to be notified of a shot fired at 19:17:11.

One of the constant refrains has been "Why didn't Martin just go home?" This scenario explains it - he was trying to just go straight home, but Zimmerman was stalking him and Martin doubled back to try to avoid the "creepy *advertiser censored* cracker".

Every bit of this is my theory an my opinion, from the times I measured from the recording of Zimmerman's call to NEN, my measurements of distances from Google Earth, my figures based on average walking speed, etc.

My opinion and just my opinion!

By the way, this STILL does not explain who started the physical confrontation, which seems to the determinate factor whether Zimmerman is culpable for second degree murder.

Many thanks for this well thnought out factually substantiated post..as per GZ's testimony.

During his video taped walk through the day after the shooting, Zimmerman claims he stayed on the phone while walking across the block to look for a street number(and claims that is because the dispatcher asked him for one which was a lie) and while he was walking back Martin jumped him. The timing does NOT work.


This particular instance of GZ's lying is crucial. IMO
 
I have never used, nor have I heard a person of my acquaintance or otherwise use the term "Homie." I don't even know what it means.

I am basing my opinion, and it is only my opinion, on what Rachel his friend said she heard. She said that TM told her he had reached the condo where he was staying, in the back of it. She said that TM said he (The man following him) was back. She heard TM say something to the effect of "Why are you following me?" She said that another person, presumable GZ, said "Why are you here?" That means to me, at least, that TM did attempt to return to his father's fiancee's condo and made it to the back yard when he was accosted by GZ. I do not know how they ended up where they did when the shot was fired. I believe, again only IMO, that GZ somehow forced TM to return in the direction of his vehicle to detain him until the police came when TM resisted part way on and GZ shot him. I do not believe TM would have been able to speak once shot in the heart. Furthermore, since TM's hands were under his body, GZ could not have pulled them straight out. I believe GZ is guilty of murder. IMO
 
Hold him by the elbows/upper arms to insure he didn't move?

I'm behind on this thread... as is my SOP! I can't ever keep up! This may have been covered, but if he wrote HANDS, we have to assume he meant HANDS. If he wrote upper arms or elbows, we can assume it was his elbows or upper arms that he was holding. That is a pretty big difference, and I think he would have been more specific, but we have to go by his exact words.


I've always wondered if Trayvon was on top facing George, how did he get shot and end up face down in the grass with his hands under him? I'm not familiar with how a gun shot could move someone, so I'm curious how this could have happened.
 
Shoots a teenager and walks away. No attempt to check pulse, revive, look for wounds nothing. I just pulled out my firearm and shot him.

So someone that shoots an assailant is now expected to perform CPR on that assailant afterwards?

*Mod Snip*
 
The autopsy showed an 1/4 x 1/8" abrasion to his left hand. Not his dominate hand and not a "cut".

The skin on his knuckle was broken. We don’t know if it was his dominant hand or not. That said, IMO) it’s of no consequences what so ever whether or not it was his dominant hand.
 
I don't find this judge pro either side. She seems pretty rough on both sides.

I agree with you MeeBee IMO I think she is running her court room, and it's clear she's in charge. She is giving both sides a little leeway, she overrules and sub-stains both sides equally.
 
If I ever am attacked and in fear of my life, hopefully I'll have the presence of mind to use my cell phone video feature, so if I kill someone in self-defense, the events will be recorded so no one can claim to know my thoughts and actions. But they still will.
 
See I took it not that he did not know the street names but that he was just unsure at that moment which street he was on. MOO

One of the female neighbors that testified last week also was unsure about where the name of the entry street changes within the development. Jenna, I think, and she's on the HOA. I remember her testimony very clearly for exactly this reason.
 
If I ever am attacked and in fear of my life, hopefully I'll have the presence of mind to use my cell phone video feature, so if I kill someone in self-defense, the events will be recorded so no one can claim to know my thoughts and actions. But they still will.

I can't imagine if I were being attacked, and in fear of losing my life, that I would be able to film the event with a cell phone.
 
In court his NW trainer told him to call every time.. No matter what if anything is suspicious just call and let police work it out.

How many calls has no bearing at all on anything other than the fact that he was following protocol every time.. IMO

However, it seems he was not "following protocol" the night he killed TM. He was told to stand down and let the police handle the situation.
IMO
 
Yeah, that's why I can't, IMO, based on what I know and my own experiences picture a kid like Trayvon saying, in all seriousness "You're gonna die, homey." When I first heard that while watching George's re-enactment it gave me pause. It just doesn't ring true to me.

Since we know what Trayvon DID call GZ that night, I highly doubt he said "You're gonna die, homey". Sure doesn't sound like Trayvon's vocabulary, especially IF his was threatening to kill Zimmerman. There are so many things that don't make sense from GZ's statements. When you add them all up, it sounds like a lie. IMO

Homey is more of a term of endearment when used these days. JMO
 
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