George's Possible "Suicide" Letter

[impatientredhead]

Most people who threaten suicide don't really want to kill themselves...they just want the pain to STOP and walk through the motions of the only solution they can think of. I know people tend to make a distinction between those who really intend to kill themselves and those who just "want attention", but I don't really think that's fair. Not having the courage to actually go through with it doesn't mean there was something illigitimate about the state of their utter despair. IMHO it's moot whether he intended to actually do it or not.

On a semi-related note it has struck me as kinda weird the way that Cindy phrased her defence of Casey in that recent e-mail where she says "Casey never hurt Caylee...she loved her dearly" or something like that. Not "my daughter is not a murderer", not, "Zenaida killed Caylee" or anything else like that. Just sounded weird. Then the reports coming out describe George saying he doesn't believe "Casey hurt Caylee" again using that odd phrasing. No blaming of the real killer, no strong denials of Casey being a murderer, and very similar wording in each case.

I don't know exactly why this struck me like it has, but it's almost like they can't reconcile Casey their daughter, and Casey the monster. Jessie Grund even said it's hard to think of the person he knew being the person he sees today...like he has to remember Casey as a different person who's gone now because to think she's been like this all along just doesn't compute. I really think there's some measure of this happening now with the Anthony's...I mean, what are the options? They must have albums full of pictures of Casey smiling and laughing as a child. If Casey did this, she is a MONSTER, but then again, they have years of memories battling that notion.

ITA with Marple too. Parents will often blame the "bad influences" who corrupted their child. It's a very normal reaction, and I don't think it's a stance we should really read too much into. We only see Casey like she is now...her parents are battling 20 years of raising her frrom birth and need to figure out how to reconcile everything within themselves.

That is exactly what I think about the wording. They can't bring themselves to say murdered. They say Casey wouldn't hurt Caylee. Replace that with Casey wouldn't murder Caylee. Since the beginning of this case LE was saying it could have been an accident, several of her friends said it couldn't be intentional it was an accident and a cover up. Once they found Caylee's body and the fantasy of finding her was dashed they probably believed it was an accident. No one wants to believe their child is capable of such an act.

Think how horrified you would be if you child accidently killed your grandchild and then tried to cover it up. Then change that to seeing evidence, not speculation or rumors or theories, but evidence that your child wrapped duct tape around your grandchid's face and intentionally killed her. I can see both were the leap into that reality is unacceptable to one's mental well being, and where it could push one over the edge.

 

[CharlestonGal]

Yes, on NG, Drew Petrimo said that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1-kzO8DkH8&feature=channel_page

(about 3:00)
NG: Drew, what is his status right now?
DP: They say he's doing ok, he's been, the Baker Act stipulates that he should be kept under surveillance for 72 hours but I've talked to his attorney, he says he's doing better, he's in bed, he's talked with Cindy Anthony. She was at first distraught over this whole news then he said almost, she was almost kind of angry that, that this happened, but they're going over to visit him now after he left the press conference earlier today. His attorney was going to visit him, he says that, you know, he's alive so that's the best thing that they can take away from today because, as the attorney said, that they were at one time really scared that he had already hurt himself if you hear the 911 call.


**************

It seems to me CA could be angry over many different aspects of this. I am not reading much into that.

I agree. Nowhere in DPs statement does he say Cindy is mad at George. He says Cindy is mad this happened. She could be mad at the press, the public, the world, Casey, who knows. Why are we jumping to the conclusion she's mad at George?

 

[eddeva]

if i'm wrong then please correct me - i keep reading that george wrote 'she's pretty and clever blah blah i can't/don't believe ...'
in my experience the phrase 'i can't/don't believe' is not usually a proclamation of innocence. how many times has someone come up to you and said, 'did you hear so and so did this, that and the next thing. i can't/ don't believe it!' you know they believe it, the words are just an expression of their inability to fathom or accept it.
i don't think george saying this means any more than that.

 

[ROBLYN]

I think that there are many things that we discuss that fall under the personal and private so why now are many saying "no way"? I was very offended that people were talking about incest (when there is no basis for this idea) and Cindy's medication.

Less than 15% of those who successfully commit suicide actually leave notes. Between the texts and the note, I feel IMO that this was a cry for help.

I think if we analyze the note WITHOUT the emotional aspect and mud slinging, that it has a place in sleuthing. The police are going to analyze the note I am sure.

I would like to see the note, not to slam GA or CA or KC but rather from a "forensic" standpoint.


Ultimately, I feel KC committed this act on her own but there is a small "investigative" part of me that would like to rule out involvement of any one else, either pre or post mortem.

Everyone involved needs to take responsibility for their own actions. It is ill advised that the A's would continue to publicly assert that KC is a princess, angel when at the VERY least, it is clear to everyone she is a liar and manipulator. Brad C. has done a very good job IMO of getting them to keep their mouths shut.

We should keep our eyes on the evidence, whatever form that comes in, and try to keep our personal feelings on the rant thread or in the parking lot.

I myself have crossed the line between evidentiary things and personal feelings. Luckily there is an edit button and the mods to remind me.

I pray GA will find the strength to do the right thing, whatever that may be...

Hi karenz,

Very well said, this is exactly how i have been feeling.Thank -you.:blowkiss:
The goal is Justice for Caylee and that means discussing subjects that are uncomfortable to some, including me. If the note has any evidence imo it should be discussed. We are all adults and need to be respectful of each other. I hope they all recieve the help they need, but Caylee is the most important person in this tragedy, and i say let the chips fall where they may with everyone else.

just mo

 

[2goldfish]

But remember, Melinda Duckett's suicide letters were made public. I don't know....I'm interested in reading them but I wouldn't want anyone reading mine...know what I mean??

maybe it's just me but if they die, it isnt quite so bad cause they're not having to face the world knowing these things on top of whatever it already going on....

 

[Verité]

Originally posted by Tichad3:
"Attempting suicide is a crime. As such the documents become public record. That's how it works in my county any way."

Please cite the statute for the "crime" in this instance, to include language
which states specifically ". . .and the contents of any suicide note shall be
open to public discussion." When does "county" law supersede federal law
(as in the US Constitution, Bill of Rights)?

When does the right to blog (First Amendment) supersede another's
right to privacy? The man said he wanted to be left alone. I assume
this to include his thoughts during a private recording of his despair.

Besides, I understood LE to say that GA has not been charged with any crime. When did the jury convene to declare him "guilty."

 

[Marple]

If anyone is curious, there is an interesting article about the legality of suicide on wiki, with some good links. (I know, not the best source, but I said interesting).

Search wiki for Legal Views of Suicide

 

[*Hayley*]

Attempting suicide is a crime. As such the documents become public record. That's how it works in my county any way.

And if everything was kept private, then why is there even a WS to begin with? Isn't that why we're all here? To speculate and discuss every aspect of a crime.

Actually it isn't a crime any longer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_views_of_suicide

Regardless, frankly, I don't think it isn't ANY of our business.

 

[Marple]

Actually it isn't a crime any longer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_views_of_suicide

Regardless, frankly, I don't think it isn't ANY of our business.

Hey, GMTA! :crazy:

 

[MissJames]

Attempting suicide is a crime. As such the documents become public record. That's how it works in my county any way.

And if everything was kept private, then why is there even a WS to begin with? Isn't that why we're all here? To speculate and discuss every aspect of a crime.

My son committed suicide and left a note.The police took the suicide note,but made us a copy.I assumed the news would be in the media and they told me ,unless it was a public suicide [like jumping off a bridge],it remains private.I don't know if the public can request that info. I'm in SC

 

[MissJames]

maybe it's just me but if they die, it isnt quite so bad cause they're not having to face the world knowing these things on top of whatever it already going on....

As with all suicides,the loved ones and friends are left facing the consequences.

 

[Devon]

That is exactly what I think about the wording. They can't bring themselves to say murdered. They say Casey wouldn't hurt Caylee. Replace that with Casey wouldn't murder Caylee. Since the beginning of this case LE was saying it could have been an accident, several of her friends said it couldn't be intentional it was an accident and a cover up. Once they found Caylee's body and the fantasy of finding her was dashed they probably believed it was an accident. No one wants to believe their child is capable of such an act.

Think how horrified you would be if you child accidently killed your grandchild and then tried to cover it up. Then change that to seeing evidence, not speculation or rumors or theories, but evidence that your child wrapped duct tape around your grandchid's face and intentionally killed her. I can see both were the leap into that reality is unacceptable to one's mental well being, and where it could push one over the edge.

Bolded by me

The duct tape found on Caylee's mouth area may or may not help prove that she was intentionally murdered. We don't know when the tape was applied or why, or whether it contributed to Caylee's death, or even whether it was originally applied to the mouth or to some other part of her face but then slipped (the info. from the search warrant tells us that some hair was 'attached' to the tape, but it doesn't say that the tape was 'attached' to the mouth). IMO the A's are perfectly entitled at present to maintain a belief that KC did not deliberately harm Caylee, because there has been no evidence released as yet that proves that Caylee's death was the result of deliberate harm.

 

[Tichad3]

Originally posted by Tichad3:
"Attempting suicide is a crime. As such the documents become public record. That's how it works in my county any way."

Please cite the statute for the "crime" in this instance, to include language
which states specifically ". . .and the contents of any suicide note shall be
open to public discussion." When does "county" law supersede federal law
(as in the US Constitution, Bill of Rights)?

When does the right to blog (First Amendment) supersede another's
right to privacy? The man said he wanted to be left alone. I assume
this to include his thoughts during a private recording of his despair.

Besides, I understood LE to say that GA has not been charged with any crime. When did the jury convene to declare him "guilty."

Okay, first of all I said that was the way it is in my county...meaning that I don't know how it is everywhere.

All the other stuff is just you making it up and going off on your own tangent...not anyone else saying that.

I have stated in this thread and in another one that I don't think he "attempted" suicide. I stand by that OPINION. When you "attempt" suicide, you usually do something harmful to yourself...not just pretend and then text people about it.

I feel really, really sorry that he lost his granddaughter, especially in such a heinous way. Other than that, the man gets no sympathy from me.

But that is just ME and I respect others opinions and feelings on the subject. Please do not try to put words into my mouth. I say what I mean...sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong.

 

[impatientredhead]

Originally posted by Tichad3:
"Attempting suicide is a crime. As such the documents become public record. That's how it works in my county any way."

Please cite the statute for the "crime" in this instance, to include language
which states specifically ". . .and the contents of any suicide note shall be
open to public discussion." When does "county" law supersede federal law
(as in the US Constitution, Bill of Rights)?

When does the right to blog (First Amendment) supersede another's
right to privacy? The man said he wanted to be left alone. I assume
this to include his thoughts during a private recording of his despair.

Besides, I understood LE to say that GA has not been charged with any crime. When did the jury convene to declare him "guilty."

The police report is public record in Florida. There doesn't have to be a crime committed. Agree with the law or not, the public has a right to see the county documents. If it was relevant to an ongoing investigation it could be withheld, but only until that investigation was resolved. George's privacy would only be being violated if he was the victim of an illegal search which he is not. People who want to be alone don't text people saying they are going to kill themselves. They didn't drive by the motel by coincidence, see his car, and kick the door in. Their help was requested.

119.105 Protection of victims of crimes or accidents.--Police reports are public records except as otherwise made exempt or confidential. Every person is allowed to examine nonexempt or nonconfidential police reports. A person who comes into possession of exempt or confidential information contained in police reports may not use that information for any commercial solicitation of the victims or relatives of the victims of the reported crimes or accidents and may not knowingly disclose such information to any third party for the purpose of such solicitation during the period of time that information remains exempt or confidential. This section does not prohibit the publication of such information to the general public by any news media legally entitled to possess that information or the use of such information for any other data collection or analysis purposes by those entitled to possess that information.

US Fourth Amendment, which guarantees "the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures",[2]. Most countries have laws regarding trespassing and property rights also determine the right of physical privacy.

 

[Tichad3]

Actually it isn't a crime any longer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_views_of_suicide

Regardless, frankly, I don't think it isn't ANY of our business.

You might want to read the whole article.

 

[*Hayley*]

You might want to read the whole article.

What makes you think I didn't? I read it and IMO, how I see it, there isn't anything illegal about killing yourself or attempting to do so. Can you please point out to me what you think I am missing?

I am not trying to be snarky about this or rude, but as I said before, it really isn't our business unless he confesses to what happened to Caylee.

 

[MomofBoys]

As I said earlier, in a perfect world I'd like to see the letter remain undisclosed.

I am aware of the law, and the eligibility of the note to be released.

My main issue is the number of people who want to see this released not because of potential evidentiary value, but because it gives them more anti-Anthony fodder. Blaming GA because he was desperate and sad enough to want to end his own life. Calling it a stunt.

I'm not saying all of it is here, even. But while I am as continually amazed at the Anthonys and their issues--this feels different. I just feel awful for him, and keep remembering how kind his eyes were when I had the opportunity to speak to him.

Was in NG that said that Casey was taking them on the ride of their lives? It just keeps on getting worse.

 

[Tichad3]

What makes you think I didn't? I read it and IMO, how I see it, there isn't anything illegal about killing yourself or attempting to do so. Can you please point out to me what you think I am missing?

I am not trying to be snarky about this or rude, but as I said before, it really isn't our business unless he confesses to what happened to Caylee.

I don't think you were snarky. I wasn't trying to be either. Sometimes it's hard to tell though unless your face to face.

United States

In the United States, suicide has never been punished as a crime nor penalized by property forfeiture or ignominious burial.[citation needed] Historically, various states listed the act as a felony, but all were reluctant to enforce it. By 1963, six states still considered attempted suicide a crime (North and South Dakota, Washington, New Jersey, Nevada, and Oklahoma that repealed its law in 1976). By the early 1990s only two US states still listed suicide as a crime, and these have since removed that classification. In some U.S. states, suicide is still considered an unwritten "common law crime," that is, a crime based on the law of old England as stated in Blackstone's Commentaries. (So held the Virginia Supreme Court in Wackwitz v. Roy in 1992.) As a common law crime, suicide can bar recovery for the family of the suicidal person in a lawsuit unless the suicidal person can be proven to have been "of unsound mind." That is, the suicide must be proven to have been an involuntary, not voluntary, act of the victim in order for the family to be awarded money damages by the court. This can occur when the family of the deceased sues the caregiver (perhaps a jail or hospital) for negligence in failing to provide appropriate care.[4] Some legal scholars look at the issue as one of personal liberty. According to Nadine Strossen, President of the ACLU, "The idea of government making determinations about how you end your life, forcing you...could be considered cruel and unusual punishment in certain circumstances, and Justice Stevens in a very interesting opinion in a right-to-die [case] raised the analogy."[5]

In many jurisdictions medical facilities are empowered or required to commit anyone whom they believe to be suicidal for evaluation and treatment. See Code 5150 for example.


I took that passage from the link you posted and bolded the part. I had an acquaintance put on probation for "attempting" suicide.

 

[TxLady2]

i wrote a response and before posting got called away so when i came back i checked to see where the conevrsation had gone before posting.
here's the post MomofBoys-

i think something that came out this week was a wake up call for george. somewhere in that docu-dump is something that left him w/ no doubt that casey killed his grandbaby. if he really meant what he said (don't believe she did it) to be taken as a proclamation of innocence rather than that he simply can't believe it, then he wouldn't be dragging her friends into it. if she did no wrong what is there to blame them for?

I disagree, I think it was the culmination of everything that he has gone through these past 7 months... and finding out for sure that it was Caylee's remains in those woods. He has tried so hard to be strong, but he probably came to the realization that he could not be so strong anymore.
From the news accounts, I don't think he had actually made the attempt to take his life yet. He had probably swallowed a few pills, which would have put him to sleep, but he had purposely not taken enough to kill him.
I am sure that the actual note will be made public at some point in time.
What distresses me most of all is the fact that some seem to think that we have to read and study every little detail, every thought that goes through their minds and pick it to pieces. What kind of ghoulish attitude is this? Sitting around waiting and praying for another doc dump... so that we can get inside their minds and judge them for their sins? That's just wrong.
None of us are without sin.... we need to stop throwing stones!

 

[*Hayley*]

I don't think you were snarky. I wasn't trying to be either. Sometimes it's hard to tell though unless your face to face.

United States

In the United States, suicide has never been punished as a crime nor penalized by property forfeiture or ignominious burial.[citation needed] Historically, various states listed the act as a felony, but all were reluctant to enforce it. By 1963, six states still considered attempted suicide a crime (North and South Dakota, Washington, New Jersey, Nevada, and Oklahoma that repealed its law in 1976). By the early 1990s only two US states still listed suicide as a crime, and these have since removed that classification. In some U.S. states, suicide is still considered an unwritten "common law crime," that is, a crime based on the law of old England as stated in Blackstone's Commentaries. (So held the Virginia Supreme Court in Wackwitz v. Roy in 1992.) As a common law crime, suicide can bar recovery for the family of the suicidal person in a lawsuit unless the suicidal person can be proven to have been "of unsound mind." That is, the suicide must be proven to have been an involuntary, not voluntary, act of the victim in order for the family to be awarded money damages by the court. This can occur when the family of the deceased sues the caregiver (perhaps a jail or hospital) for negligence in failing to provide appropriate care.[4] Some legal scholars look at the issue as one of personal liberty. According to Nadine Strossen, President of the ACLU, "The idea of government making determinations about how you end your life, forcing you...could be considered cruel and unusual punishment in certain circumstances, and Justice Stevens in a very interesting opinion in a right-to-die [case] raised the analogy."[5]

In many jurisdictions medical facilities are empowered or required to commit anyone whom they believe to be suicidal for evaluation and treatment. See Code 5150 for example.


I took that passage from the link you posted and bolded the part. I had an acquaintance put on probation for "attempting" suicide.

Okay good, I wasn't coming here to troll and certainly didn't want you to think I was being snarky

Thank you for pointing that out to me, the way I read it was that it was no longer something that was pursued, the way it was worded.

I can however after sitting here and thinking about see how if someone attempts and fails, would be punished for wasting law enforcements time and resources. Then again, it could also be well needed help. It's a no win situation for sure.