Germanwings Airbus crash 24 March #1

[sar2them1984]

If the captain continues to try to put in his emergency access code, the rogue pilot in the cockpit but keep hitting the lock switch to prevent entry. A second person in the cockpit can either prevent this, or manually open the door.

Again, we are unsure - can the door be opened manually from inside or can the door only be locked/unlocked inside the cockpit from the control panel? Very different options available to second person if you can't open it manually

 

[CARIIS]

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2015/...pilot-andreas-lubitz-suffered-from-depression

They say he passed all later psychological tests and was deemed safe to fly. I wonder what the tests are and how rigorous they are.

The media got this all messed up too. He stated there is no formal psyc eval. He stated observation by educators during training, and mandated reporting by colleagues when on the line to report any concerns. They, the media, took his statement that " he passed all "medical" testing" and through psyc in there. Physical medical testing is intense - (vision/reflexes/heart attack risk etc!)

THe law:

Military and civilian pilots must pass routine periodic medical examinations known informally as "flight physicals" in order to retain the medical clearance or certification that qualifies them to fly. Military pilots go to a flight surgeon, an armed forces physician qualified to perform such medical evaluations. tain a flight physical from a civilian physician known as an Aviation Medical Examiner (AME). AMEs are physicians designated and trained by the FAA to screen individuals for fitness to perform aviation duties. Pilot medical assessment by way of the flight physical is an important public health function.

Detailed medical requirements for each class of pilot exam are described in Code of Federal Regulations Part 67.

No psyc testing is done! He passed the physicals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_certifications_for_pilots

Most of the medical relates to the pilot's physiology - height, weight, blood and urine. The mental health aspect is small and general in tone. Just six lines out of a three and a half page guidance document set out what the "psychiatric" aspect should cover: make a general enquiry about mental health which may include mood, sleep and alcohol use

former BA captain who retired in 2006 after 20 years flying airliners says he had no psychological profiling during his career. "The medical was having an ECG, peeing in a bottle, having a blood test and all that." It did not touch on mental health, he says.

major check on possible psychological vulnerability was "peer pressure". Colleagues look out for signs that a fellow pilot is troubled over a bereavement or a relationship breakdown, Vivian said. "If I was really concerned I would either replace them or mention it to the management later on."

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32075809

 

[fruity]

The media got this all messed up too. He stated there is no formal psyc eval. He stated observation by educators during training, and mandated reporting by colleagues when on the line to report any concerns. The took he passed all "medical" testing which is rigerous - (vision/reflexes/heart attack risk etc!)

Military and civilian pilots must pass routine periodic medical examinations known informally as "flight physicals" in order to retain the medical clearance or certification that qualifies them to fly. Military pilots go to a flight surgeon, an armed forces physician qualified to perform such medical evaluations. With the exception of glider pilots, balloon pilots and sport pilots, civilian pilots in the United States and most other nations must obtain a flight physical from a civilian physician known as an Aviation Medical Examiner (AME). AMEs are physicians designated and trained by the FAA to screen individuals for fitness to perform aviation duties. Pilot medical assessment by way of the flight physical is an important public health function.

Federal regulations describe three classes of medical certificates: Class 3 medical certificates are for private pilot duties only. They have the least restrictive medical requirements and the certificates are good for 5 years for applicants under age 40 and 2 years for those 40 and over. Class 2 medical certificates are for commercial, non-airline duties as well as private pilot duties. This certificate would be required of crop dusters, charter pilots, corporate pilots, and anyone else who flies commercially. The certificate is good for 1 year for commercial activities and 2 or 5 years for private pilot use based on age. Class 1 medical certificates are required for airline transport pilots who fly scheduled airliners. These are the most complex examinations and include electrocardiograms (EKGs). EKGs are required at the first Class 1 medical after the applicant turns 35 and then the first medical after age 40 and yearly thereafter. Class 1 certificates are good for airliner duties for 1 year for applicants under age 40 and 6 months for those 40 and over. Like the Class 2 certificate, however, these remain good for a full year for other commercial activities and 2 or 5 years for private pilot duties. Detailed medical requirements for each class of pilot exam are described in Code of Federal Regulations Part 67.

No psyc testing is done! He passed the physicals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_certifications_for_pilots

You are confused.

He passed the psychological test in order to be able to start flying, after he finished his training. Then he passed the yearly physicals.

Carsten Spohr, CEO of Germanwings parent company Lufthansa, confirmed in a press conference in Cologne today that Lubitz took a break in his training for several months but was "not able to state the reasons why".

"Then he did the tests (technical and psychological) again. And he was deemed 100 percent fit to fly," he said.

Read more at http://www.9news.com.au/world/2015/...-suffered-from-depression#1OG5V0V2u5XLFHlT.99

The Lufthansa chief executive, Carsten Spohr, said Lubitz had passed all the psychological tests required for training and undergone regular physical examinations.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...co-pilot-of-germanwings-flight-4u9525-profile

 

[CARIIS]

ot 7 alarm fire in NY.

 

[ElleElle]

You are confused.

He passed the psychological test in order to be able to start flying, after he finished his training. Then he passed the yearly physicals.


Read more at http://www.9news.com.au/world/2015/...-suffered-from-depression#1OG5V0V2u5XLFHlT.99


http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...co-pilot-of-germanwings-flight-4u9525-profile

The last sentence of this article also says:

"He said pilots undergo yearly medical examination but that does not include psychological tests."

 

[fruity]

More detail.

Lubitz began training to become a Lufthansa pilot in 2008 and spent time working as a flight attendant, Spohr said. The 28-year-old native of Montabaur in western Germany's Rhineland spent 11 months on a waiting list and began work as a pilot for Germanwings, a Lufthansa subsidiary, in late 2013. At some point during his training, Lubitz went on hiatus for a period of “months,” Spohr said in Cologne.

“Six years ago there had been an interruption to his training. We checked his skills, his competence and he went back to training school. After that he was successful. He went through all of that with flying colors,” Spohr said. “He was fit in all areas, 100 percent.”

Spohr described interruptions to pilot training as a routine occurrence and declined to provide specifics on Lubitz’s case. Trainees are required to give an explanation if they take a break from training, but German law prevents employers from obtaining their employees’ medical history.

“The interruption lasted a few months. This is something that can easily happen in our schools. Unfortunately I cannot give you any further information,” Spohr said.

Lufthansa pilots go through an extensive battery of physical and psychological testing, Spohr said. Instructors spend time with trainees to get a sense of their psychological fitness, but Lufthansa’s protocol does not call for interviews with a potential pilot’s friends or families. Moreover, Spohr said Lufthansa routinely checks on pilots’ ability to fly, but that psychological exams are not implemented once training ends.

http://m.ibtimes.com/lufthansa-pres...terruption-pilot-training-ceo-carsten-1860350

 

[CARIIS]

You are confused.

He passed the psychological test in order to be able to start flying, after he finished his training. Then he passed the yearly physicals.



Read more at http://www.9news.com.au/world/2015/...-suffered-from-depression#1OG5V0V2u5XLFHlT.99

That is the media messing it up: He stated:

Lufthansa does not have standard psychological testing for pilots once they are hired

http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/26/europe/france-germanwings-plane-crash-main/

We checked his skills, his competence and he went back to training school.
He is referring to recalling piloting skill set retention before continuing training. Then if application accepted by carrier, carrier does the physical (medical only and mandated by law) prior to putting him on the line.

No carrier does any psyc screening. It is treated same as addiction. If a colleague notices a colleague talking to the instruments(!) he must report it . There was a pilot here a couple of months ago that went psycotic in flight, and had to be restrained. ! Same as addiction - if colleague suspects substance abuse, he can refuse to fly with that individual until blood drawn. The airline will work with any addict who seeks treatment.

"Instructors spend time with trainees to get a sense of their psychological fitness": flight instructors are not trained to assess mental health. Instructors, in any educationial pursuit, are spending time with trainees to teach them how to fly - not to access mental problems. Understandably, if any overt dramatic mental issues and subsequent behaviors occur then might be an issue. Those of us in the mental health field, are never tested for mental wellness!!!


In flight training schools, they have no interest in the student who is paying tuition, to learn "how" to fly. By that I mean again, if the guys starts dancing in class (!) might be an issue. Its just like collage, pay tuition, demenstrate skill attainment. the training institute does not concern itself with a students mental health until it becomes very clear (I.E - the guy who did the Batman movie masacre while in grad school). When he started coming to class as the joker they asked him to leave!

I hope regulators dont go nuts here - there is no such thing as a"precdicitve" mental health battery. HIgh blood pressure could be predictive of a heart attack or stroke, but in mental health no testing insturment has ever been invented - its impossible (predicting future behavior in any one!) Cant be done!

“The FAA does not expect the Examiner to perform a formal psychiatric examination,” the FAA guidelines state. “However, the Examiner should form a general impression of the emotional stability and mental state of the applicant.”

http://qz.com/370575/a-brief-history-of-pilots-deliberately-crashing-planes/


ABC:
The co-pilot who was at the controls when the GermanWings flight crashed received ... and started working for Germanwings' parent company Lufthansa at a flight training center .... They do not do psychological testing.

Most pilots in the UK start at a flight training school, says a spokesman for the Civil Aviation Authority, the UK regulator. But these schools do not screen out candidates for psychological reasons. They are purely looking at someone's ability to fly.Once the pilot gets a job with an airline they will have a medical before they can fly passengers

This process does involve an element of psychological screening. Candidates are asked about their background, including their interests and family relationships, as well as whether they had suffered depression or had suicidal feelings, Vivian suggests. No pilot is going to verbilize "I feel like killing myself and hope to remain employed.

But the irony in this area is , there is no test, in any vocation, that can "acheive" the media carrying on about psyc testing!

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32075809

 

[fruity]

The last sentence of this article also says:

"He said pilots undergo yearly medical examination but that does not include psychological tests."

I know. That's what I'm saying.

He had psychological tests when he finished his training. After at that he only had physicals. Cariis is saying he hadn't undergone any physiological testing EVER.

 

[PrairieWind]

Again, we are unsure - can the door be opened manually from inside or can the door only be locked/unlocked inside the cockpit from the control panel? Very different options available to second person if you can't open it manually

I can't seem to find an answer to this. Can the cockpit door only be opened FROM THE INSIDE by flipping the unlock switch on the control panel? or can it be unlocked at the door itself? Any pilots here?

 

[Bravo]

Again, we are unsure - can the door be opened manually from inside or can the door only be locked/unlocked inside the cockpit from the control panel? Very different options available to second person if you can't open it manually

CNN has been reporting the coded entry one can override from inside on the control panel. Also can be done inside manually. Not clear if that lock is right on the door or next to the door. However there does appear to be 2 ways to allow entry from within.

 

[Bravo]

I can't seem to find an answer to this. Can the cabin door only be opened FROM THE INSIDE by flipping the unlock switch on the control panel? or can it be unlocked at the door itself? Any pilots here?

Appears both per CNN

 

[fruity]

You are confused.

He passed the psychological test in order to be able to start flying, after he finished his training. Then he passed the yearly physicals.



Read more at http://www.9news.com.au/world/2015/...-suffered-from-depression#1OG5V0V2u5XLFHlT.99

That is the media messing it up: He stated:

Lufthansa does not have standard psychological testing for pilots once they are hired

http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/26/europe/france-germanwings-plane-crash-main/

We checked his skills, his competence and he went back to training school.
He is referring to recalling piloting skill set retention before continuing training. Then if application accepted by carrier, carrier does the physical (medical only and mandated by law) prior to putting him on the line.

Nobody except you is saying anything different. I have clearly stated that he had psychological testing done after he finished his training and before he started flying. After that he only had physicals. Your post (which I quoted above) states that there was no psychological testing done ever. This is not true.

 

[Intermezzo]

SKY News UK is reporting that Easyjet airlines is changing company policy from tomorrow to ensure there are always two people in the cockpit at all times. Perhaps more airlines will follow suit.

good news.....not all policy change(s) can be done and implemented quickly but this one definitely...
Hopefully other airlines will follow suit quickly.

 

[Bravo]

CNN is about to go over the locks after the current break

 

[jggordo]

Someone in the know of the industry would know more. In the situation of a new Co-Pilot and other Pilots "bidding" on flight schedules could it be a case where the new Co-Pilot wanted more flights to increase his hours of experience but was low man on the totem pole? Over a period of 16 months being "passed over" many times. Could it not be akin to a football player with dreams of the NFL but better players and the Coach will not get much playing time and having to spend most of the time on the bench?

I am wondering whether the average of 39 or 40 hours per month of flying time was his idea or the Airline's.

JMO's

 

[JanetElaine]

After reading through all the new posts I really just don't have anything to add. It makes me slightly uncomfortable that my first hunch after following the plane's flight path with distance traveled and the speed at which is traveled actually is correct. I mean... I'm not posting this to say 'see what I first said and how close I was'. I'm still kind of hoping it's not actually what happened (yes, head-in-the-sand syndrome). I'm seriously feeling a bit sick about this. Knowing there are several large airports around where they could have turned if something was wrong with the plane, the slightly faster than normal descent that did not resemble an immediate emergency especially combined with the speed it kept going... I did not like that. But damn if I didn't try to find other explanations for it... there had to have been, right? Surely it couldn't be something like this.

 

[PrairieWind]

Appears both per CNN

Ok, thanks. For some reason I thought that was the case, but couldnt figure out where I had heard that. So that would makes sense then why having even a FA come in the cockpit while one of the pilots left would be effective. There really would be no way to prevent the absent pilot from re-entering, short of restraining that other person, which isn't going to be easy.

 

[Bravo]

Ok, thanks. For some reason I thought that was the case, but couldnt figure out where I had heard that. So that would makes sense then why having even a FA come in the cockpit while one of the pilots left would be effective. There really would be no way to prevent the absent pilot from re-entering, short of restraining that other person, which isn't going to be easy.

I know. Not sure what the answer is. Design as we know was to keep people out of the cockpit. Seems there just is not anything anymore to keep us safe anywhere. The only thing i do wonder if a 2nd person would have deterred a persons choice of committing an evil act using a plane. I do like the idea of a 2nd person in case the seated Pilot does have a medical issue.

 

[JanetElaine]

There is a lot of focus on the door and rightfully so. You do want to keep the bad guys out. I am wondering if it wouldn't be possible to at least install a 'mayday button' of some sorts elsewhere on the plane. Like a fire alarm box in a building, except only accessible with a code. And when that's pressed, not only would ATC receive a mayday, but it would also unlock the door. IDK. Just thinking out loud in a very amateurish way.

 

[CARIIS]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...-andreas-lubitz-100-fit-fly-article-1.2163009

A friend said he had so much to live for -- he planned to marry next year, Dutch journalist Victor Schildkamp reported.

I dont know why i "feel" this, I think we are going to find intense issues with employer as motivator, as oppossed to direct mental . Obviuosly being mad at your employeer and killing your custumers has a mental skew to it - but I think we are going to find he felt slighted by his employer, like rage you guys know what I mean?

Was he given a warning about something? Was he bidding for more than an average of 35 hours flying a month and not getting them? that kind of thing --ANd hey crashing million dollar piece of equipment is kind of .......................Most of the commericial pilots who deliberatly crash are mad, as oppossed to it being suicide:

The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) has identified eight cases of pilot suicide between 2003 and 2012. In only one instance was there a passenger on board.


the Egypt Air was this: The co-pilot of EgyptAir Flight 990, which crashed off New England in 1999, killing 217 people, deliberately crashed the plane as an act of revenge, according to a source close to the investigation.Gamil el-Batouty had earlier been reprimanded for sexual misconduct and the executive who told him he would not be allowed to fly US routes again was on board the plane.

Even now, what,15 years later the media is reporting this was suicide. It was not! It was revenge toward the airline. There is a difference!

Pacific Southwest Airlines Flight 1771:

The man who caused the crash, David Burke, was a disgruntled former employee of USAir, the parent company of PSA. After meeting with Ray Thomson, his manager, in an unsuccessful attempt to be reinstated, Burke purchased a ticket on PSA flight 1771, a daily flight from Los Angeles to San Francisco. Thomson was a passenger on the flight, which he regularly took for his daily commute from his workplace at LAX to his home in the San Francisco Bay Area.[SUP][3]. He wrote this Hi Ray. I think it's kind of ironical, isn't it? I asked for some leniency for my family, remember? Well, I got none and now you'll get non and then shot the pilots [/SUP]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Southwest_Airlines_Flight_1771

spooky:
Mozambique Airlines Flight TM470 crashed in Namibia,
The co-pilot had left the cockpit for the bathroom only to find that the door was locked when he returned. The pilot then altered the autopilot to bring it to below ground level and manually switched it to maximum speed. Someone was pounding on the cockpit door as the plane went down. The pilot never once called for help.

Silk Air Flight 185
financial difficulties and had work-related problems............ his receipt of several recent disciplinary actions on the part of the airline......

Despite the smattering of high-profile crashes, suicides via plane crashes are still rare. An FAA report from 2014 revealed that eight out of 2,758 fatal aviation accidents between 2003 to 2012 were suicides.

Why was he only being given 35 hours a month flying?

http://qz.com/370575/a-brief-history-of-pilots-deliberately-crashing-planes/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_airliner_accidents_and_incidents