Germanwings Airbus crash 24 March #1

[JanetElaine]

Has the complete passenger list been made public, btw? Not sure if I missed it or what, but I haven't seen it. Usually is one of the first things to come out.

 

[AlwaysShocked]

Why oh why do they give out these "teasers"? Why not just say "no comment for now"?

This kind of behavior on the part of these supposed "professionals" reminds me of the TV "teaser statements" like "What did a local woman find on her porch when she opened her front door this morning? Stay tuned for the Channel 4 News at Eleven to find out!" Why would a police participate in this idiotic kind of behavior? It seems a really dumb thing for professionals to be doing.

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"A French military Mirage jet was scrambled from the Orange air base[16] to intercept the plane. Ms Royal confirmed this morning that, soon after 10.30am, when the pilots had stopped responding by radio, the French military scrambled a Mirage jet fighter to investigate. This aircraft was seen by eye-witnesses following the doomed airliner as it skimmed the Alpine ridges before crashing into a sheer mountain-side. The pilot of the Mirage could, therefore, also possess crucial information on the Germanwings aircraft's behaviour."

I have to hand it to the French military on this action. They did much better than the U.S. did on 9/11!

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Re: Chance of plane being taken over and crashed by terrorists vs. plane being crashed by apparently suicidal pilot

When I started really looking around online, there have been far more suicidal incidents - or at least incidents that very, very much appeared to be suicidal acts - than I ever realized! There was even one over Africa (originated in Mozambique) that that was eerily similar to this one, with one pilot locking himself into the cockpit and the second pilot banging on the door while the plane descended to crash into the ground.

Perhaps airline officials ought to look more closely at the actual statistics. They might want to pay more attention to the idea of mandated periodic psychological testing of pilots. I realize future behaviors cannot be predicted by any test. But personality disorder traits can often be picked up.

The people who commit these types of acts are not "normal" despite friends and family members often saying that they "seemed so normal". A person does not just decide one day, out of a clear blue sky to kill himself along with a planeload of innocent people. Having lived with a family member who had a personality disorder, I can say that they are not "normal" to live with. I also know that many times family members of the disturbed are in denial. Even to other family members when bizarre thought patterns and actions are staring them in the face.

This is a scary, scary situation. But it is time for the airlines to begin to recognize that this exists as a problem and to take affirmative, proactive actions to prevent it.

List of pilot suicides: http://news.aviation-safety.net/201...-and-incidents-deliberately-caused-by-pilots/

 

[AlwaysShocked]

Deleted due to double post.

 

[PrairieWind]

Flight radar has told CNN the autopilot was manually reprogrammed from 38,000 ft. to 100 ft.
Per CNN

Does the plane's transponder send out that info? It must. I didn't know that.

 

[gitana1]

I've been told it's technically quite possible to have pilotless flights but passengers polled find the idea unacceptable. Not sure if this is completely accurate though as it was a tech person who told me this, not a pilot.

JMO--Much of the commercial flying now is on autopilot. More than many folks would ever think.

There have been a few crashes where the autopilot was used for landing or whatever and it caused a problem. One at SF International, I believe. In certain situations - weather, icing, birds in the engine, engine failure, etc. - I highly doubt autopilot would suffice.

"After 9/11, they made cockpits impregnable. It keeps the terrorists out, but in the end it also allows someone to keep their colleagues out too. Airlines have to make a call. Which is the bigger threat - terrorism or suicide?"

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32063587

IMO, terrorism. Of course I suppose it can be both - a suicidal terrorist pilot. I don;t believe that's the case here, though.

The co-pilot Germanwings passenger jet that crashed into the French Alps had to stop his pilot training in 2009 because he was depressed and suffering "burnout".

Andreas Guenter Lubitz paused his training with German flag-carrier Lufthansa for several months because of his psychological issues, neighbours and friends have told Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung.

The mother of a schoolmate of Lubitz said her daughter had seen Lubitz just before Christmas and that he appeared normal.

She described the 28-year-old pilot, from Montabaur, Rheinland Pfalz in Germany, as a "lovely boy" who "had a good family background" but that six years ago he was struggling.

"Apparently he had a burnout, he was in depression," the unnamed mother said.

Lubitz was at the controls as Germanwings flight 4U 9524 descended from 38,000 feet into the side of the mountain, while his captain Patrick Sonderheimer desperately tried to re-enter the cockpit.

The plane's black box appears to show that, although the captain punched the emergency number into the cockpit door to gain entry, the co-pilot inside then relocked the door.

Read more at http://www.9news.com.au/world/2015/...-suffered-from-depression#Cx5pZiFm17zmFJVG.99

Real "lovely boy", taking 149 people with him to their deaths. What a @#%$*&^%!!!!!! Disgusting human being. Horrible. No need to take innocent people who want to live with you when you decide to die. I can't fathom the evil of that.

Have had 4 folks commit suicide that I knew. Examples of 3 of them...4th... not gonna talk about

#1 - My father ... Suicide by gun... nuff said, don't wanna go into it. Found his suicide note 5 years after he passed... long story

#2 My sisters best friend when I was in middle school....suicide by gun... She was in college... SMARTEST in her high school. She rented a U-Haul and drove all her belongings into the mountains to take her own life. DAYUMMMM.... consideration of her that............... no words no words no words right now

#3 My childhood friends son..... suicide by gun. Just the month before he and his family supported me with a loss

#4.... Not saying......nope... not saying....


Anywhoooooooooooooooo.... I have tears tears tears tears flooding down my face as I read this thread.............

jeeeeeeeeeeeeez dammit, I was trying to make a point here, but will have to go to another WS thread as I'm bawling............


xoxoxooxoxoxo

Aww, atthelake. I'm so sad to hear you've been through that. I'd like to point out something - none of the people you mentioned committed murder when they killed themselves. They had real psychological problems but were still good people. Not evil like this guy.

Wow thanks for the link gregjrichards. Sounds like we just may have some kind of answer. I wonder if the whatever is on his computer?

Could it be simulations of how to crash in the manner he did?

Sorry if this has already been posted: overview on psychological testing of pilots: How are pilots psychologically screened?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-32075809

tl:dr - there is no overall cohesive psychological testing for pilots [emoji15]

Okay, well there needs to be. These people hold a lot of lives in their hands.

There is no way to make people 100% safe. I think we have to accept that. And sometimes measures taken to prevent one danger can make you susceptible to another type of danger. Thats exactly what happened here. The locked door, meant to prevent terrorists from entering the cockpit, backfired and prevented the pilot from entering to save the plane. We just have to accept that there will always be risks.

Well, you are the logical voice of reason. I do think that society has become so fear based and nannying that we are strangling our ability to live freely and efficiently at some point. There indeed is no way to make life risk proof. Bad things will continue to happen, no matter what we do to prevent them from occurring.

 

[CARIIS]

His manifesto?

Hi Pop!

That is scarier!!!!!!

 

[PrairieWind]

Why oh why do they give out these "teasers"? Why not just say "no comment for now"?

This kind of behavior on the part of these supposed "professionals" reminds me of the TV "teaser statements" like "What did a local woman find on her porch when she opened her front door this morning? Stay tuned for the Channel 4 News at Eleven to find out!" Why would a police participate in this idiotic kind of behavior? It seems a really dumb thing for professionals to be doing.

-------------------------------------

"A French military Mirage jet was scrambled from the Orange air base[16] to intercept the plane. Ms Royal confirmed this morning that, soon after 10.30am, when the pilots had stopped responding by radio, the French military scrambled a Mirage jet fighter to investigate. This aircraft was seen by eye-witnesses following the doomed airliner as it skimmed the Alpine ridges before crashing into a sheer mountain-side. The pilot of the Mirage could, therefore, also possess crucial information on the Germanwings aircraft's behaviour."

I have to hand it to the French military on this action. They did much better than the U.S. did on 9/11!

----------------------------

Re: Chance of plane being taken over and crashed by terrorists vs. plane being crashed by apparently suicidal pilot

When I started really looking around online, there have been far more suicidal incidents - or at least incidents that very, very much appeared to be suicidal acts - than I ever realized! There was even one over Africa (originated in Mozambique) that that was eerily similar to this one, with one pilot locking himself into the cockpit and the second pilot banging on the door while the plane descended to crash into the ground.

Perhaps airline officials ought to look more closely at the actual statistics. They might want to pay more attention to the idea of mandated periodic psychological testing of pilots. I realize future behaviors cannot be predicted by any test. But personality disorder traits can often be picked up.

The people who commit these types of acts are not "normal" despite friends and family members often saying that they "seemed so normal". A person does not just decide one day, out of a clear blue sky to kill himself along with a planeload of innocent people. Having lived with a family member who had a personality disorder, I can say that they are not "normal" to live with. I also know that many times family members of the disturbed are in denial. Even to other family members when bizarre thought patterns and actions are staring them in the face.

This is a scary, scary situation. But it is time for the airlines to begin to recognize that this exists as a problem and to take affirmative, proactive actions to prevent it.

List of pilot suicides: http://news.aviation-safety.net/201...-and-incidents-deliberately-caused-by-pilots/

With all due respect to the French (and they did react very quickly here) all countries have had planes on alert after the lessons learned in 9/11. As for airlines recognizing the risk of rogue pilots, I think they are well aware of that problem and they do put pilots through phych exams. But they also know full well there is little that they can do beyond that. Are you going to fire or ground any pilot that seems "a bit down"? The unions and pilot's associations would put a stop to that plan in a hurry.

 

[JanetElaine]

Flight radar has told CNN the autopilot was manually reprogrammed from 38,000 ft. to 100 ft.
Per CNN

How would they know this?

 

[CARIIS]

How would they know this?

Yeh, that struck me as odd too. The main transponders for Air TRaffic Control tell what altitude the aircraft is at that second - have no idea how anyone could know that - but its CNN so....................................

 

[sar2them1984]

Few images from daily Mail site. Seems computer was taken from the family home. Pictures with the boxes were from his apartment. Looks like some kind of red material in one??

 

[Bravo]

How would they know this?

I didn't catch all of the report. Could they be concluding from known facts? There was mention that if he had chosen to do this manually (not Autopilot) it would have taken several minutes longer to accomplish.

 

[Really?]

The last sentence of this article also says:

"He said pilots undergo yearly medical examination but that does not include psychological tests."

BBM:.....geez...something so simple and expected with all that is going on in this world.....smh.....I also hate it when people take others with them when they decide to "check-out".....

 

[Isabelle]

So very sad for loved ones. Lubitz' parents must be absolutely mortified.

 

[ElleElle]

There is a lot of focus on the door and rightfully so. You do want to keep the bad guys out. I am wondering if it wouldn't be possible to at least install a 'mayday button' of some sorts elsewhere on the plane. Like a fire alarm box in a building, except only accessible with a code. And when that's pressed, not only would ATC receive a mayday, but it would also unlock the door. IDK. Just thinking out loud in a very amateurish way.

Even still at the rate of this descent, a mayday button would of been too late. Even France could not scramble military jets in time.

I wonder if they found an FS with this exact plan to crash.

 

[CARIIS]

Officials say work at Germanwings crash site in French Alps focused on locating 2nd black box, evacuating human remains; about 30 people on site - @nytimes

[h=2]Crew members also know the code to open the cockpit, but don't have training to fly plane, Lufthansa CEO says[/h]

 

[Lyra500]

His deleted/cached FB page shows him sitting with the Golden Gate bridge in the background and his cover picture is of times square, NY. 2 locations that have always been considered high stakes targets for terrorists.....just saying.

They are also two of the most popular tourist attractions in their respective cities. I would wager that practically 100% of tourists visiting those cities have a photo taken at those two locations so I really don't think any suspicious conclusions can be drawn from his holiday photos.

 

[ElleElle]

Flight radar has told CNN the autopilot was manually reprogrammed from 38,000 ft. to 100 ft.
Per CNN

See? Why is this allowed? All aircraft should be monitored 24/7 and a suspicious action such as this happens, the aircraft could be remotely manually overridden.

 

[AlwaysShocked]

With all due respect to the French (and they did react very quickly here) all countries have had planes on alert after the lessons learned in 9/11. As for airlines recognizing the risk of rogue pilots, I think they are well aware of that problem and they do put pilots through phych exams. But they also know full well there is little that they can do beyond that. Are you going to fire or ground any pilot that seems "a bit down"? The unions and pilot's associations would put a stop to that plan in a hurry.

I think that picking up on data showing traits of having/developing a personality disorder is far different from "firing or grounding any pilot that seems a bit down". And what unions and pilot's associations want really is not the issue either. If regulations are instituted as required for passenger safety, that's pretty much it, no matter what any union or pilot's association wants.

Unions and associations - not just in aviation - often fight things like mandated alcohol/drug testing. But in the end, such measures are implemented. Because the value in protecting public safety is seen as trumping individual's right to privacy in not being tested.

Is psychological testing that much more invasive than a drug test? Why would unions and pilots associations fight something like this if it could prevent even ONE incident of the loss of innocent lives? Germanwings is going to end up paying out much more in damages to the families of the dead in this crash than it would ever cost to administer some basic personality testing.

And, yes, there are plenty of private employers that require psychological testing for certain positions.

 

[CARIIS]

Humm owned by Luth itself:

• 1955: Lufthansa German Airlines begins an Ab-Initio pilot training program
• 1967: Practical training contracted to Pacific Southwest Airlines (PSA), in San Diego.
• 1970: Program moves to Goodyear, Arizona.
• 1992: Lufthansa purchases all assets from PSA Group. ATCA is a wholly owned subsidiary of Lufthansa Flight Training.

company owned by the airline group the Lufthansa Group, that trains Lufthansa pilots. The training locations are Bremen, Frankfurt, Berlin and Munich in Germany, Vienna in Austria, Zurich in Switzerland and a facility in Phoenix, Arizona, USA. The company has about 500 employees[SUP][1][/SUP] and has been in business for around 50 years.[SUP][2]

he Airline Training Center Arizona is a facility in Goodyear, Arizona, where future Lufthansa pilots conduct flight training with small aircraft. It is operated by the Lufthansa subsidiary Lufthansa Flight Training. The base contains a building where the students live in their own apartments.

http://www.atca.net/index.html


[/SUP]

 

[ohreally]

I am wondering if they found some type of drug/chemical at the apartment that might make a person have to use the bathroom. I am thinking this because they used the word 'testing'. Wouldn't they say for analyses if they were talking about a computer or manifesto? I just thought the word 'testing' was interesting.