Germany/Portugal - Christian Brueckner, 27 @ time of 1st crime (2004), charged with sexual assault crimes, Praia de Rocha, Portugal. #2

[SuperdadV8]

I don't think they are playing for time. They just don't want a crazy person on the bench. It would be malpractice to allow that to slide

Yes and no!

Of course it has been the right decision to remove this lay judge. People who do these kind of statements do not belong in any position that is responsible for deciding about a persons guilt! Just to make that clear!

BUT:

Section 25 of the german criminal procedure code states, that the application for bias has to be done immediately, after being informed of the occupation of the court in the trial. I really doubt, that FF and his companions were informed about the occupation of the court just this morning, because otherwise he hasn't been able to sniff around in the lay judges social media activity!

So in the end, he could have made this application much earlier, the judge would have been removed and the trial could have been started without this kind of delay!

So in the end....nothing more than playing of time, by (mis)using a justified reason!

 

[katydid23]

Can anyone translate this? The press conference in the courthouse does not begin until the last 10 minutes of this video so fast forward---@ 50:04

Streamed live 101 minutes ago #dailymail #madeleinemccann #braunschweig

Braunschweig court spokesperson gives statement during trial against German man on five separate sexual assault charges. (The man is also under investigation for the for the disappearance of British toddler Madeleine McCann).

 

[frank-cole]

Evidence can also be wrong, otherwise we wouldn't see cases of miscarriage of justice.

That’s true & no doubt people will question the verdicts (either way) based on their interpretation of whatever the evidence turns out to. Probably a whole lot more so in the MM case. Personally, in respect of the German system & the verdicts - if he’s found not guilty on the basis of the evidence I’ll accept it. I hope people do the same should he be found guilty.

 

[RichardKimble]

That’s true & no doubt people will question the verdicts (either way) based on their interpretation of whatever the evidence turns out to. Probably a whole lot more so in the MM case. Personally, in respect of the German system & the verdicts - if he’s found not guilty on the basis of the evidence I’ll accept it. I hope people do the same should he be found guilty.

Certainly, but I have no particular view either way on CB over this, he certainly seems a wrong un if past offences are anything to go by but it's the MM angle that piques my interest more ,but that's for the other thread.

 

[frank-cole]

Yes and no!

Of course it has been the right decision to remove this lay judge. People who do these kind of statements do not belong in any position that is responsible for deciding about a persons guilt! Just to make that clear!

BUT:

Section 25 of the german criminal procedure code states, that the application for bias has to be done immediately, after being informed of the occupation of the court in the trial. I really doubt, that FF and his companions were informed about the occupation of the court just this morning, because otherwise he hasn't been able to sniff around in the lay judges social media activity!

So in the end, he could have made this application much earlier, the judge would have been removed and the trial could have been started without this kind of delay!

So in the end....nothing more than playing of time, by (mis)using a justified reason!

Good point & could both be right. It could be that it was right to remove the judge & FF was playing for time.

Prosecutor Ute Lindemann agrees to the application, it is justified. "We do not tolerate statements outside the legal system, call for murder and manslaughter, someone like that cannot be a voluntary judge," it says.

Appreciation of the law from all sides is good. They’ll prosecution will want to pave the way to actually arguing the evidence.

 

[RichardKimble]

Good point & could both be right. It could be that it was right to remove the judge & FF was playing for time.

Prosecutor Ute Lindemann agrees to the application, it is justified. "We do not tolerate statements outside the legal system, call for murder and manslaughter, someone like that cannot be a voluntary judge," it says.

Appreciation of the law from all sides is good. They’ll prosecution will want to pave the way to actually arguing the evidence.

So what is the system that vets voluntary judges, seems as if there's a fault with it.

 

[frank-cole]

Certainly, but I have no particular view either way on CB over this, he certainly seems a wrong un if past offences are anything to go by but it's the MM angle that piques my interest more ,but that's for the other thread.

Fair enough. I’m confident the verdict in the MM case will be as think it will. Regarding the 5 linked cases, I share the view that 2 will be more challenging to prosecute than the other 3 will.

 

[SuperdadV8]

Can anyone translate this? The press conference in the courthouse does not begin until the last 10 minutes of this video so fast forward---@ 50:04

Streamed live 101 minutes ago #dailymail #madeleinemccann #braunschweig

Braunschweig court spokesperson gives statement during trial against German man on five separate sexual assault charges. (The man is also under investigation for the for the disappearance of British toddler Madeleine McCann).

The trial will be held as scheduled, the court will decide over the application until next friday and announce it's decision at the upcoming day of the court's hearing. If it decides, the lay judge has to be removed, then subtitute lay judges are already there (what's usual!).

 

[RichardKimble]

The judge adjourned the court to consider the request, before returning 40 minutes later and duly removed Ms Thielen-Donckel from the panel, scoring an early win for Brueckner's defence team.


Madeleine McCann suspect Christian Brueckner arrives in court

 

[katydid23]

The trial will be held as scheduled, the court will decide over the application until next friday and announce it's decision at the upcoming day of the court's hearing. If it decides, the lay judge has to be removed, then subtitute lay judges are already there (what's usual!).

OKAY, good. Thank You for the translation. I was really hoping the court was going to clarify for us all. Seems straightforward so far.

 

[SuperdadV8]

OKAY, good. Thank You for the translation. I was really hoping the court was going to clarify for us all. Seems straightforward so far.

Sure. This trial is inevitable, even if it starts a little bit bumpy. What's no surprise in a case like this one!

 

[RichardKimble]

Fair enough. I’m confident the verdict in the MM case will be as think it will. Regarding the 5 linked cases, I share the view that 2 will be more challenging to prosecute than the other 3 will.

What is clear imo is the defence, they've attacked the judiciary with partial success,the witness are in for a tough time, we're led to believe that they can only be cross examined only by the judges but reports seem to indicate otherwise.

Others in his team include Atilla Aykac, who is an expert in cross examination, and who recently filed for a case to be thrown out after revealing a judge in a trial was having an affair.

Mr Fuelscher warned:' Some of the prosecution witnesses will have to be prepared for some unpleasant questions.'

Madeleine McCann suspect Christian Brueckner's sex trial is suspended

Brueckner, 47, arrived in court in Brunswick, Germany, earlier today to stand trial on a slew of sex abuse charges

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Trivento]

If the MM case ever gets to trial , hopefully lessons will be learned by those who want a smoother process , to iron out potential complications like this judge issue beforehand ... imo

 

[SuperdadV8]

Fair enough. I’m confident the verdict in the MM case will be as think it will. Regarding the 5 linked cases, I share the view that 2 will be more challenging to prosecute than the other 3 will.

It is always hazardous to count one's chickens before they are hatched!

Until we know what kind of evidence the prosecutors will present to the court in the trial, i would like to see the highest probability of a verdict is according to the playground incident, because CB got caught there red handed.

The probability of a verdict according to the yet unknown rape victims seems to be very low, even if there may be any further evidence like a "confession" in a kind of diary or autobiography. I don't assume him to be sentenced for that!

Salema Beach? Depends on the witnesses. Either all involved persons identify him as the perp after being grilled by the defence to conviction of the court, or not. Would say 50/50.

Poor little Hazel? I see a good chance for a sentence, because of a similar modus operandi as in the DM case, CB has been sentenced for. This, in addition with the statement of the victim and probably somebody who saw him leaving the site that day (and time!) should be sufficient imho. And i think this charge is the most important one, all the other allegations seem to be existing, to paint a kind of picture about the person that has been charged.

IF the court will come to a sentence in the "Hazel B. charge", he will go into preventive detention, that's for sure. If there won't be a kind of deal between the court, the prosecution and the defence about a "lower" sentence in favor of a confession and that "never had a chance for a fair trial BS", that the defence will bring up very soon.

But just my 2 cents!

 

[mrjitty]

The trial will be held as scheduled, the court will decide over the application until next friday and announce it's decision at the upcoming day of the court's hearing. If it decides, the lay judge has to be removed, then subtitute lay judges are already there (what's usual!).

So in reality nothing has been delayed.

 

[mrjitty]

It is always hazardous to count one's chickens before they are hatched!

Until we know what kind of evidence the prosecutors will present to the court in the trial, i would like to see the highest probability of a verdict is according to the playground incident, because CB got caught there red handed.

The probability of a verdict according to the yet unknown rape victims seems to be very low, even if there may be any further evidence like a "confession" in a kind of diary or autobiography. I don't assume him to be sentenced for that!

Salema Beach? Depends on the witnesses. Either all involved persons identify him as the perp after being grilled by the defence to conviction of the court, or not. Would say 50/50.

Poor little Hazel? I see a good chance for a sentence, because of a similar modus operandi as in the DM case, CB has been sentenced for. This, added with the statement of the victim and probably somebody who saw him leaving the site that day should be sufficient imho. And i think this charge is the most important one, all the other allegations seem to be existing, to paint a kind of picture about the person that has been charged.

IF the court will come to a sentence in the "Hazel B. charge", he will go into preventive detention, that's for sure. If there won't be a kind of deal between the court, the prosecution and the defence about a "lower" sentence in favor of a confession and that "never had a chance for a fair trial BS", that the defence will bring up very soon.

But just my 2 cents!

I agree on this assessment.

The real game in town is the HB trial. If they can get him on that, then they can take him off the streets for a long time, if not indefinitely. The other 2 rapes cases, I am not sure how they can hold up.

 

[mrjitty]

The judge adjourned the court to consider the request, before returning 40 minutes later and duly removed Ms Thielen-Donckel from the panel, scoring an early win for Brueckner's defence team.


Madeleine McCann suspect Christian Brueckner arrives in court

Nick Pisa is in braunschweig for this? LOL.

 

[frank-cole]

It is always hazardous to count one's chickens before they are hatched!

Until we know what kind of evidence the prosecutors will present to the court in the trial, i would like to see the highest probability of a verdict is according to the playground incident, because CB got caught there red handed.

The probability of a verdict according to the yet unknown rape victims seems to be very low, even if there may be any further evidence like a "confession" in a kind of diary or autobiography. I don't assume him to be sentenced for that!

Salema Beach? Depends on the witnesses. Either all involved persons identify him as the perp after being grilled by the defence to conviction of the court, or not. Would say 50/50.

Poor little Hazel? I see a good chance for a sentence, because of a similar modus operandi as in the DM case, CB has been sentenced for. This, in addition with the statement of the victim and probably somebody who saw him leaving the site that day (and time!) should be sufficient imho. And i think this charge is the most important one, all the other allegations seem to be existing, to paint a kind of picture about the person that has been charged.

IF the court will come to a sentence in the "Hazel B. charge", he will go into preventive detention, that's for sure. If there won't be a kind of deal between the court, the prosecution and the defence about a "lower" sentence in favor of a confession and that "never had a chance for a fair trial BS", that the defence will bring up very soon.

But just my 2 cents!

Agree. I can’t see the court settling for too much nonsense & they too will want to hear the evidence & judge based on it it.
I actually think the evidence will be the part that the defence will have the least amount of arguments for.

 

[mrjitty]

Remember that the Judges run the proceedings and conduct of the trial in Germany. The defence does not put on a case like in the UK.

 

[JB1510]

Same point applies.

It’ll be interesting to know whether the increased media exposure of CB, will pull out more witnesses. He has very distinct pockedmarked/pitted-skin which hasn’t been as visible in other pictures. Certainly a very notable feature that people would remember.

You’re not wrong on the pock markedness .