Gun Control Debate #1

[Tillicum]

In a perfect world, districts could afford metal detectors, armed guards, security cameras, bullet resistant glass, etc. Unfortunately, most can’t. I love reading about the districts who received grants for elaborate security measures. But it’s not common. So schools (especially suburban schools IME) are trying to do what they can to be proactive without making it seem like a prison.

The parents of students at the Ohio school where the student shot himself today are currently setting up an account at a local bank. They think if each family paid one dollar for each person in their household, there would be enough for a metal detector. Several are planning to put in $100.

 

[flourish]

What about fingerprint things in order to shoot the firearm? They can do that, right, it's already a thing... Like a trigger lock thing? Some kind of initial discount to get it installed on existing firearms and all new or refurbished or something to gradually make that the norm?

We pay to get our key fobs replaced and stuff for our cars. One can use their fingerprint for lots of things.... You could program a limited amount of fingerprints per device so Mom and Dad could fire it but not Junior?

I know manufacturers don't ever want to add stuff that, they don't want to add anything new which could get them sued or whatever, but jeepers is the answer to just do nothing? Stigmatize populations of people who haven't committed any crimes and who can't choose their illness to continue to pacify an inflexible, deliberately obtuse population to own a particular type of item/uphold some sort of lost era with no willingness to budge a freaking centimeter?

That turned into quite the rant

 

[TeaTime]

Arm The Teachers

This is ridiculous. Teachers are professionals that have a job to do and should not be tasked to also provide armed security. In my district teachers are feeding kids breakfast FGS. They have enough on their plate and to make them responsible to engage in a shoot out too is just stupid. We need professional security personnel in schools and things like LOCKED doors, metal detectors and live monitored surveillance cameras to spot the perp before he enters the building.

Assault Rifle

There is no such thing. It is just a rifle. It doesn't assault anyone without someone pulling the trigger. AR stands for Armalite Rifle, meaning it is made of plastic so that it is lighter than one with a wooden stock. They all shoot .223 rounds which are small, long rounds that enter by making a small hole, spin around a bit and make a large exit wound. It is just a rifle.

Bump Stock

You can ban the sale, but can also google how to make your own and it takes about 3 minutes to do. Banning these is a fruitless effort.

How did this happen?

A NINETEEN year old adult male with mental issues and lots of home problems was thrown out of HS and everyone was told to not let him return to campus if he was wearing a backpack. Seriously? We can't keep trying to mainstream the kids who need special attention or ADULT students into the schools with the (and I will say it) NORMAL kids.

Movies, video games, music, television

We flood our senses with violence and rely on parents to censor this garbage out of their children's lives. Well, we see how that is a failed policy. If we all shun the violent movies, tv shows, music and video games, there will be no market for it and it will fall away. We allowed this to happen because we are afraid to speak up about the very real fact that people mimic what they see and hear. We used to know this. When did we forget?

No one bats an eye (even kids) when they have to go through metal detectors to gain entrance to a football/basketball/baseball game or concert or airplane. They won't be traumatized by going through one at school.

We provide better security to the shopping mall to protect the dresses and shoes than we do the children in our schools? WHY? Money. No one wants to pay for the security and the politicians are too busy spending tax payer dollars on BS.

We don't strip Constitutional rights from everyone because some school in one state failed to provide even basic security measures.

More people are strangled to death with someone else's bare hands than are killed by AR-15s every year. These school shootings are preventable, all it takes is someone to step up and demand security and a little common sense - like locked entrances. The hysteria is understandable, 17 people were killed. It is emotional. But, we can prevent it without disarming the public.

The 2d amendment is there to thwart oppressive government. In every nation where mass genocide has occurred, the public was first disarmed. Australia banned guns and their crime rate exploded. I read that it is estimated that 2 million violent crimes are prevented each year in the US by an armed citizen. We have the right to defend ourselves and our families and friends.

I have saved my own life on 3 occasions because I was armed. Once against 3 drunken men who were following me as I walked home down a down a dark street, once against 4 men in a car who were trying to run me off the road and once when an angry man tried to follow me home. All I had to do was point the gun at them and POOF - they ran. For the 3 drunks, I pointed the gun at one man and said "I'm going to shoot you if anyone moves. I may not get you all, but I will get you."

My friend's life was saved by a women who had the courage to stare down a shooter with her little .38 revolver. My friend was shot and permanently crippled but did not lose her life because the shooter fled when he saw a gun pointed at him. She would be dead if not for that little gal with her pistol.

There are 2 types of beings on this planet: predator and prey. The predator does not change its mission because the prey is defenseless. I may be prey but I will fight for my life - and yours if I am around when you need me - because I will be armed.

If you really want to save lives - join the March for Life. We've murdered 60 million babies in the US since Roe v Wade and it didn't solve anything. When we send the message that babies in utero are worthless, it permeates into our world in ways we didn't imagine but are living in now. You can take it to the bank. We have devalued life and are living with the consequences.

 

[kittythehare]

Do we really want to model our schools after schools in a country that is at constant war? Is that what we've conceded - our schools are in a war zone?

I wish we could strive for better.

jmo

God, no, please no, not ever, never

 

[bears10]

Bullet proof glass means that first responders can't get in and people can't break to get out--- in case of fire or issue that would require quick exit. My school had looked at bulletproof but it was turned down because the risk of fire is much greater than a someone firing through the windows. ETA: Our local fire marshall would not approve bullet proof glass in our offices (at the front of building closest to parking area( for the same reason.

1) there is no such thing as bullet proof glass. Only bullet resistant.

2) if installed and planned by educated professionals, there should be no issue with getting in and out in a fire.

Your fire Marshall needs to be better educated in the topic of bullet resistant glass. Sandy hooks newly built school has amazing technology, including bullet resistant glass. I’m confident that they wouldn’t have installed it if it would cause potential egress issues. No offense, but either your school or fire marshall are giving you guys terrible excuses for not approving the expense. JMO as someone in the industry.

 

[bears10]

Our region is one of those. Some of our schools are barely keeping the lights on and they're proposing more budget cuts to education.

This fella has made some offers to some of our schools, including metal detectors. Some accepted them, but they are working with other schools to best approach their safety needs, from what I understand. Either way, he's being pro-active in our region.



http://www.themoreheadnews.com/kent...cle_f250657c-df90-5d73-a785-f3bb1bec8154.html

http://www.kentucky.com/news/local/education/article200893064.html

I’m glad you have someone proactive. That’s a huge step. Hopefully your districts can get some state grants as well. School security is fresh on everyone’s minds. Now is the time to rally.

 

[rsd1200]

Bullet proof glass means that first responders can't get in and people can't break to get out--- in case of fire or issue that would require quick exit. My school had looked at bulletproof but it was turned down because the risk of fire is much greater than a someone firing through the windows. ETA: Our local fire marshall would not approve bullet proof glass in our offices (at the front of building closest to parking area( for the same reason.

Thank you, I'd not thought of that.

 

[bears10]

Thank you, I'd not thought of that.

It’s not factual. Just sayin.

 

[bears10]

The parents of students at the Ohio school where the student shot himself today are currently setting up an account at a local bank. They think if each family paid one dollar for each person in their household, there would be enough for a metal detector. Several are planning to put in $100.

That’s awesome. But not going to happen everywhere. Especially places that pay $20k a year in taxes. While it will help with the cost of actual detectors, the salaries and other expenses will be ongoing.

 

[TeaTime]

Arm The Teachers

This is ridiculous. Teachers are professionals that have a job to do and should not be tasked to also provide armed security. In my district teachers are feeding kids breakfast FGS. They have enough on their plate and to make them responsible to engage in a shoot out too is just stupid. We need professional security personnel in schools and things like LOCKED doors, metal detectors and live monitored surveillance cameras to spot the perp before he enters the building.

Assault Rifle

There is no such thing. It is just a rifle. It doesn't assault anyone without someone pulling the trigger. AR stands for Armalite Rifle, meaning it is made of plastic so that it is lighter than one with a wooden stock. They all shoot .223 rounds which are small, long rounds that enter by making a small hole, spin around a bit and make a large exit wound. It is just a rifle.

Bump Stock

You can ban the sale, but can also google how to make your own and it takes about 3 minutes to do. Banning these is a fruitless effort.

How did this happen?

A NINETEEN year old adult male with mental issues and lots of home problems was thrown out of HS and everyone was told to not let him return to campus if he was wearing a backpack. Seriously? We can't keep trying to mainstream the kids who need special attention or ADULT students into the schools with the (and I will say it) NORMAL kids.

Movies, video games, music, television

We flood our senses with violence and rely on parents to censor this garbage out of their children's lives. Well, we see how that is a failed policy. If we all shun the violent movies, tv shows, music and video games, there will be no market for it and it will fall away. We allowed this to happen because we are afraid to speak up about the very real fact that people mimic what they see and hear. We used to know this. When did we forget?

No one bats an eye (even kids) when they have to go through metal detectors to gain entrance to a football/basketball/baseball game or concert or airplane. They won't be traumatized by going through one at school.

We provide better security to the shopping mall to protect the dresses and shoes than we do the children in our schools? WHY? Money. No one wants to pay for the security and the politicians are too busy spending tax payer dollars on BS.

We don't strip Constitutional rights from everyone because some school in one state failed to provide even basic security measures.

More people are strangled to death with someone else's bare hands than are killed by AR-15s every year. These school shootings are preventable, all it takes is someone to step up and demand security and a little common sense - like locked entrances. The hysteria is understandable, 17 people were killed. It is emotional. But, we can prevent it without disarming the public.

The 2d amendment is there to thwart oppressive government. In every nation where mass genocide has occurred, the public was first disarmed. Australia banned guns and their crime rate exploded. I read that it is estimated that 2 million violent crimes are prevented each year in the US by an armed citizen. We have the right to defend ourselves and our families and friends.

I have saved my own life on 3 occasions because I was armed. Once against 3 drunken men who were following me as I walked home down a down a dark street, once against 4 men in a car who were trying to run me off the road and once when an angry man tried to follow me home. All I had to do was point the gun at them and POOF - they ran. For the 3 drunks, I pointed the gun at one man and said "I'm going to shoot you if anyone moves. I may not get you all, but I will get you."

My friend's life was saved by a women who had the courage to stare down a shooter with her little .38 revolver. My friend was shot and permanently crippled but did not lose her life because the shooter fled when he saw a gun pointed at him. She would be dead if not for that little gal with her pistol.

There are 2 types of beings on this planet: predator and prey. The predator does not change its mission because the prey is defenseless. I may be prey but I will fight for my life - and yours if I am around when you need me - because I will be armed.

If you really want to save lives - join the March for Life. We've murdered 60 million babies in the US since Roe v Wade and it didn't solve anything. When we send the message that babies in utero are worthless, it permeates into our world in ways we didn't imagine but are living in now. You can take it to the bank. We have devalued life and are living with the consequences.

We are either going to really fix this or just put band aids on it. We either have meaningful security in the schools and some common sense measures or we will just keep repeating this insanity.

THIS IS PREVENTABLE.

 

[kaen]

1) there is no such thing as bullet proof glass. Only bullet resistant.

2) if installed and planned by educated professionals, there should be no issue with getting in and out in a fire.

Your fire Marshall needs to be better educated in the topic of bullet resistant glass. Sandy hooks newly built school has amazing technology, including bullet resistant glass. I’m confident that they wouldn’t have installed it if it would cause potential egress issues. No offense, but either your school or fire marshall are giving you guys terrible excuses for not approving the expense. JMO as someone in the industry.

The new Sandy Hook building has impact resistant glazing, not bullet resistant. It is an amazing building. The area outside of classroom windows are low and landscaped so a shooter would not be able to shoot directly in but in an upward angle. The doors are awesome with glass that is on the opposite side of the handle side. All redesigned buildings in CT will follow the new redesign guidelines set forth because of Sandy Hook. Our school did look at the impact resistant windows as well--even with that glass the refit to the existing windows was very expensive. Being close to Sandy Hook we wanted to make sure that we did what we could. The fire marshall was clear that not all windows could be bullet resistant but we could do strategic resistant glass. There is an egress issues which is why not all the windows can be impact resistant.

you clearly know know more about this than I do but I am passing on what I knew when I was in a CT building. You are indeed right that the Sandy Hook building is a bit of a technology marvel. The hard part is getting all schools to that level of security.

 

[kaen]

We are either going to really fix this or just put band aids on it. We either have meaningful security in the schools and some common sense measures or we will just keep repeating this insanity.

THIS IS PREVENTABLE.

I like some of your ideas. I do wonder why people would advocate for all kinds of change except limiting access to guns-- not taking the guns away from people who want them but make more people have them. Many teachers do not want to be armed and have too much to do, I agree.

The semi-automatic rifles were designed for military operations in order to kill bad guys/gals.

We can disagree on the gun access.

 

[kaen]

It’s not factual. Just sayin.

I disagree. https://www.fastcodesign.com/303827...-hook-school-that-doesnt-feel-like-a-fortress

"The school will also feature glass that’s not quite bulletproof, but it’s close. It has impact-resistant glazing that prevents the pane from shattering completely, but looks exactly like normal glass, and isn’t as thick as ballistic glass."

Impact resistant slows the process of breaking the glass but doesn't guarantee that it won't break. Again you are in the business but, please recognize that there are other factors for schools in determining things like bullet-resistant glass. It is also lighter weight so the windows can be opened even by a child.

 

[kittythehare]

We are either going to really fix this or just put band aids on it. We either have meaningful security in the schools and some common sense measures or we will just keep repeating this insanity.

THIS IS PREVENTABLE.[/QUOT

 

[rsd1200]

What about fingerprint things in order to shoot the firearm? They can do that, right, it's already a thing... Like a trigger lock thing? Some kind of initial discount to get it installed on existing firearms and all new or refurbished or something to gradually make that the norm?

We pay to get our key fobs replaced and stuff for our cars. One can use their fingerprint for lots of things.... You could program a limited amount of fingerprints per device so Mom and Dad could fire it but not Junior?

I know manufacturers don't ever want to add stuff that, they don't want to add anything new which could get them sued or whatever, but jeepers is the answer to just do nothing? Stigmatize populations of people who haven't committed any crimes and who can't choose their illness to continue to pacify an inflexible, deliberately obtuse population to own a particular type of item/uphold some sort of lost era with no willingness to budge a freaking centimeter?

That turned into quite the rant

It's a good idea in theory, but, trigger locks for pistols only cost about $30 for a pack of five (Amazon) and one for an AR-15 is $40 bucks (Amazon).

 

[stygianowl]

Originally Posted by TeaTime

Australia banned guns and their crime rate exploded.
(RSBM)

On this claim:

https://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp

https://www.factcheck.org/2017/10/gun-control-australia-updated/

 

[rosemadderlake]

I really appreciate reading this thoughtful discussion here. I am learning a lot.

My questions to responsible gun owners. Would there be an issue with reforming the following:
Background check wait times. What is reasonable?
Close loopholes on gun show purchases?
Registry for semiauto large magazine guns?
Raise the age to 21?

Sandy Hook shooting anniversary: How schools have changed security
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...ary-how-schools-have-changed-security-n827371

New school design what is the future? Bullet proofing an environment that looks friendly. Retrofitting old schools with the same solutions in mind. Do states with loose, to no regulations have stronger security needs? The stats on gun deaths and regulation might bear that out.

I doubt arming teachers would be viable for a couple of reasons; trained, armed, security comes with one purpose, and its own liability insurance, and the other is teachers are fallible as we see in inappropriate relationship cases. Adding guns to that mix is not a good idea.

In a country with as many guns as citizens it is no surprise these mass shooters, and there have been quite a few have managed to fall through the cracks. Even though many terrorist acts have been thwarted, how do we improve domestic Intel? So many agencies, from health, education, to law enforcement do not seem able to coordinate with each other effectively. Connect the dots in time?

In the case of NC, I do think his mom was crying out to LE for help. The repeated calls all amounted to "low risk" assessment. After 39 calls to LE, was that the right assessment? If violence was the reason for expulsion from school, and he was not allowed on grounds with a back pack, is that a red flag that could have been reported to LE? Medical information in high risk cases, could that be released when a criteria is met and a background check initiated? And most definitely, what on earth happened with the FBI when someone did call in a tip? Side thought-I wonder if it was his brother that called in the tip?

So there was a trail of red flags... What happened?

Lastly, there was a suggestion about educating kids about guns starting when they are young. As much as I respect the 2nd amendment, and friends who own guns, our military, it is not everyone's philosophy, or desire to own, handle, learn marksmanship, hunt, or have anything to do with guns. It's a different world from the one I grew up but it is also much the same in my well regulated state. I have a new found appreciation of that, too.

 

[bears10]

The new Sandy Hook building has impact resistant glazing, not bullet resistant. It is an amazing building. The area outside of classroom windows are low and landscaped so a shooter would not be able to shoot directly in but in an upward angle. The doors are awesome with glass that is on the opposite side of the handle side. All redesigned buildings in CT will follow the new redesign guidelines set forth because of Sandy Hook. Our school did look at the impact resistant windows as well--even with that glass the refit to the existing windows was very expensive. Being close to Sandy Hook we wanted to make sure that we did what we could. The fire marshall was clear that not all windows could be bullet resistant but we could do strategic resistant glass. There is an egress issues which is why not all the windows can be impact resistant.

you clearly know know more about this than I do but I am passing on what I knew when I was in a CT building. You are indeed right that the Sandy Hook building is a bit of a technology marvel. The hard part is getting all schools to that level of security.

I live on Long Island so I’m pretty close to you. You can google “school guard glass” and see what was installed at sandy hook. And of course not all windows can be bullet resistant. At least one first floor window needs to have regular safety glazing, and which window that is needs to be kept under wraps, only known to first responders and admin. I know you were being sarcastic with “you know more than me” but trust that I am working very hard to make changes in the SC school systems in terms of security. I have not stopped researching glazing solutions in the past week. FWIW, I’ve never heard of “strategic resistance glass”. Impact resistance maybe.

 

[rsd1200]

We were talking about PSAs earlier. What if some of those could target warning signs. I would be willing to bet that no one thinks that their kid is going to be the next school shooter. Maybe a PSA could highlight some warning signs and give advice re;safety ideas such as trigger locks (cheap and easy), and where to reach out to for help (if needed, they may already be seeking help). Just a thought.

 

[K_Z]

I personally would never purchase or own "fingerprint enabled" firearms. That is an immensely dangerous situation, IMO-- to have the technology fail or lock up at precisely the moment you need to use it quickly.

Using the current fingerprint enabled items and technology I've been using for about 5-7 years, the failure rate on the first finger try is probably 30-50%. I have no confidence in the technology for something as critical as a firearm.

It's a band-aid idea, IMO, that makes anti-gun advocates feel like they're compromising on something.

It's a similar "solution" as suggesting we mandate breathalyzer control locks on all cars, to prevent drunk driving.

I personally think bump stocks will be banned shortly-- again, not because the ban will save lives, but because it's political theater that make people feel like they're doing "something" in the wake of the Las Vegas shooting.

For the same reason, I think we'll get to the place where the age limit for any gun purchase becomes 21, because of the recent FL murder spree. But it won't save a single life. But it will be easy for both political parties to agree on it, so it will likely, IMO, be introduced and pass. Political theater.