Gun Control Debate #1

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kaen said:
I disagree. https://www.fastcodesign.com/303827...-hook-school-that-doesnt-feel-like-a-fortress

"The school will also feature glass that’s not quite bulletproof, but it’s close. It has impact-resistant glazing that prevents the pane from shattering completely, but looks exactly like normal glass, and isn’t as thick as ballistic glass."

Impact resistant slows the process of breaking the glass but doesn't guarantee that it won't break. Again you are in the business but, please recognize that there are other factors for schools in determining things like bullet-resistant glass. It is also lighter weight so the windows can be opened even by a child.
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No crap it doesn’t guarantee it doesn’t break. I’ve said like 50 times that it’s resistant and not bullet proof. I’d have to look into the claims that it’s so heavy that little kids couldn’t lift it but can lift regularly glazed windows. I have arch specs that I can dive into if I have time this week.
 
bears10 said:
I live on Long Island so I’m pretty close to you. You can google “school guard glass” and see what was installed at sandy hook. And of course not all windows can be bullet resistant. At least one first floor window needs to have regular safety glazing, and which window that is needs to be kept under wraps, only known to first responders and admin. I know you were being sarcastic with “you know more than me” but trust that I am working very hard to make changes in the SC school systems in terms of security. I have not stopped researching glazing solutions in the past week. FWIW, I’ve never heard of “strategic resistance glass”. Impact resistance maybe.
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I wasn't being sarcastic at all. I try really hard to be as genuine as possible. You do know more than me. I was sharing what I know.
 
K_Z said:
I personally would never purchase or own "fingerprint enabled" firearms. That is an immensely dangerous situation, IMO-- to have the technology fail or lock up at precisely the moment you need to use it quickly.

Using the current fingerprint enabled items and technology I've been using for about 5-7 years, the failure rate on the first finger try is probably 30-50%. I have no confidence in the technology for something as critical as a firearm.

It's a band-aid idea, IMO, that makes anti-gun advocates feel like they're compromising on something.

It's a similar "solution" as suggesting we mandate breathalyzer control locks on all cars, to prevent drunk driving.

I personally think bump stocks will be banned shortly-- again, not because the ban will save lives, but because it's political theater that make people feel like they're doing "something" in the wake of the Las Vegas shooting.

For the same reason, I think we'll get to the place where the age limit for any gun purchase becomes 21, because of the recent FL murder spree. But it won't save a single life. But it will be easy for both political parties to agree on it, so it will likely, IMO, be introduced and pass. Political theater.
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What solutions do you propose?
 
rosemadderlake said:
I really appreciate reading this thoughtful discussion here. I am learning a lot.

My questions to responsible gun owners. Would there be an issue with reforming the following:
Background check wait times. What is reasonable?
Close loopholes on gun show purchases?
Registry for semiauto large magazine guns?
Raise the age to 21?

Sandy Hook shooting anniversary: How schools have changed security
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...ary-how-schools-have-changed-security-n827371

New school design what is the future? Bullet proofing an environment that looks friendly. Retrofitting old schools with the same solutions in mind. Do states with loose, to no regulations have stronger security needs? The stats on gun deaths and regulation might bear that out.

I doubt arming teachers would be viable for a couple of reasons; trained, armed, security comes with one purpose, and its own liability insurance, and the other is teachers are fallible as we see in inappropriate relationship cases. Adding guns to that mix is not a good idea.

In a country with as many guns as citizens it is no surprise these mass shooters, and there have been quite a few have managed to fall through the cracks. Even though many terrorist acts have been thwarted, how do we improve domestic Intel? So many agencies, from health, education, to law enforcement do not seem able to coordinate with each other effectively. Connect the dots in time?

In the case of NC, I do think his mom was crying out to LE for help. The repeated calls all amounted to "low risk" assessment. After 39 calls to LE, was that the right assessment? If violence was the reason for expulsion from school, and he was not allowed on grounds with a back pack, is that a red flag that could have been reported to LE? Medical information in high risk cases, could that be released when a criteria is met and a background check initiated? And most definitely, what on earth happened with the FBI when someone did call in a tip? Side thought-I wonder if it was his brother that called in the tip?

So there was a trail of red flags... What happened?

Lastly, there was a suggestion about educating kids about guns starting when they are young. As much as I respect the 2nd amendment, and friends who own guns, our military, it is not everyone's philosophy, or desire to own, handle, learn marksmanship, hunt, or have anything to do with guns. It's a different world from the one I grew up but it is also much the same in my well regulated state. I have a new found appreciation of that, too.
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BBM for focus.

Teaching gun safety is vastly different than teaching someone how to safely own firearms and learn marksmanship.

We've managed to teach about the dangers of smoking without having school kids light up to see what it's like. We don't give them illegal drugs to teach them about the DARE curriculum. Gun safety can be handled at every developmental age without requiring school kids to handle or shoot guns. Pictures will work.

Plenty of modern "social issues" are taught in public schools that not every family agrees with. Some don't get the chance to opt out of such instruction. Lots of conservative families are uncomfortable with birth control education, venereal disease, and sex and relationship instruction. Lots of families are uncomfortable with teaching elementary school kids about gay relationships, and "transgender" issues. But many public school districts insist that ALL kids need to "know" about such things, whether or not they are taught these things at home. Gun safety is not a "left" or "right" issue. As I said before, it's similar to learning CPR, swimming, fire evacuation plans, DARE, etc. But gun safety education doesn't conform to a left leaning liberal idea of what "should" be taught in public schools, so there is resistance to providing practical knowledge that may save lives.

Reflect on how we got to the place where DARE education is standard. We need to get there with gun safety education, IMO.
 
 
The DARE program didn't work.

"Despite this fanfare, data indicate that the program does little or nothing to combat substance use in youth. A meta-analysis (mathematical review) in 2009 of 20 controlled studies by statisticians Wei Pan, then at the University of Cincinnati, and Haiyan Bai of the University of Central Florida revealed that teens enrolled in the program were just as likely to use drugs as were those who received no intervention."

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-just-say-no-doesnt-work/



<modsnip>
 
I actually did use some of the Eddie the Eagle curriculum in my classroom. To supplement. More education is better.
 
flourish said:
The DARE program didn't work.

"Despite this fanfare, data indicate that the program does little or nothing to combat substance use in youth. A meta-analysis (mathematical review) in 2009 of 20 controlled studies by statisticians Wei Pan, then at the University of Cincinnati, and Haiyan Bai of the University of Central Florida revealed that teens enrolled in the program were just as likely to use drugs as were those who received no intervention."

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-just-say-no-doesnt-work/
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Then why are school districts still using the DARE curriculum? Inertia? Why are they bothering to teach any substance abuse curricula at all? Because it might help some kids who don't get that kind of message at home? Yes. Reinforcement of the message. Reach all the kids.

Head Start doesn't work either, statistically. We're still funding that. Why? Because underprivileged kids need all the help they can get, because they don't get it at home.
 
Tillicum said:
The parents of students at the Ohio school where the student shot himself today are currently setting up an account at a local bank. They think if each family paid one dollar for each person in their household, there would be enough for a metal detector. Several are planning to put in $100.
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Just as a general FYI, a school-type of metal detector costs approx $5,000 a piece (but still cheaper than the types used at airports).
 
ATasteOfHoney said:
Just as a general FYI, a school-type of metal detector costs approx $5,000 a piece (but still cheaper than the types used at airports).
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The absolute worst thing that could happen is an unfunded governmental mandate to implement certain security things, like a specific level of metal detector, or a certain number of metal detectors tied to the population of the school.

I support increased security measures in K-12 public schools (not necessarily in charter or private schools), but if they are mandated and unfunded, this would be yet another financial disaster for public education. Already in our state, a change in the formula for funding special education is requiring funds from general education to be re-allocated. This is resulting in proposed teacher lay offs, cuts in programs, cuts in services like custodians, etc. Because paying for special ed is mandated, even though funding it, is not.

We simply can't get to a point where more unfunded mandates are hurriedly passed into laws in political theater.
 
flourish said:
The DARE program didn't work.

"Despite this fanfare, data indicate that the program does little or nothing to combat substance use in youth. A meta-analysis (mathematical review) in 2009 of 20 controlled studies by statisticians Wei Pan, then at the University of Cincinnati, and Haiyan Bai of the University of Central Florida revealed that teens enrolled in the program were just as likely to use drugs as were those who received no intervention."

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-just-say-no-doesnt-work/



[flourish's unsolicited PSA:
It's considered very offensive to put quotation marks around a word like "transgender," unless it's in the form like this sentence, where it's literally grammatically correct.
Learn more here: https://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender ]
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Regarding the D.A.R.E. program , I have to agree with you. Either ours was done incorrectly, or the program is flawed. Mine got about as much out of it as folks did the "This is your brain on drugs" fried egg commercial. Very little good information. They did learn alllll about a variety of drugs though. Tends to make some of them curious.
 
https://taskandpurpose.com/second-a...ocial&utm_campaign=share&utm_content=tp-share

During my current deployment, nearly 100 people have been slaughtered in the United States, many of them children, a number more befitting a war zone than an ostensibly advanced society. I have good reason to fear more for my daughter’s safety in her daycare than my own safety in Afghanistan.

What possible treatment is there? Each additional blow unleashes hideous new symptoms of conspiracy theorizing and ideological retrenchment. We are damned by our condition, certainly morally and possibly existentially. The causal factor is written into our national DNA, in what may yet prove to be a fatal congenital condition. I have to resist telling my colleagues to understand the shootings as symptoms of a degenerative disease, exceptionalism’s darkest strain, one of our last remaining values on display to the world.

 
A Wisconsin high school student was inspired by horrific school shootings to invent something that could save lives.
Somerset High School senior Justin Rivard invented a tool he calls the "JustinKase" in shop class. Made of steel plates and connecting rods, his device slips beneath a classroom door and latches to the door&#8217;s jam. With his device in place, Rivard has yet to find a person who can push a classroom door open, including linemen from his high school football team.


http://www.kare11.com/article/news/...ting/465-c0c002f3-df34-4dcd-8c04-480712ef7ed5
 
ATasteOfHoney said:
Just as a general FYI, a school-type of metal detector costs approx $5,000 a piece (but still cheaper than the types used at airports).
Click to expand...

Can you imagine the cost of installing metal detectors on every door in every school. And then you'll have someone who goes into a school, pulls the fire alarm, goes back out to their vehicle, grabs their gun/guns, waits for the students and staff to come filing out, and opens fire.

Effectiveness of metal detectors = 0

Anyone intent on causing carnage will find a way.
 
bears10 said:
Yep. And the ongoing costs are the biggest roadblock.

https://www.postandcourier.com/news...cle_6fdbbad6-0ffc-11e8-a077-5ffd5919b42f.html
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Yes, the ongoing costs could certainly be budget-breakers.

And I would be furious if I lived in a district that cuts school programs, where teachers and parents buy supplies out of their own pockets for the classroom....and then a shiny metal detector suddenly shows up.

This does not imply I don't take safety seriously. I do! But I also take education seriously and the quality of life for our children seriously.

Entering a school building day after day, year after year, by going through a metal detector and seeing armed guards.....this is not a way to raise children. I am baffled by it. I understand the comfort of having a secure building, but wish this much emphasis was going into PREVENTING the desire to kill in the first place and PREVENTING the means to kill.

To me that means the priorities should be on early childhood and gun control.

But those priorities take personal commitment in terms of time and money - not just from parents but from everyone deciding these are important - and I don't think we're willing as a culture to put importance on them. Easier to buy stronger windows and a metal detector as fixes to the problem...until the next funeral.

I've gone through a gamut of emotions just on this thread - and right now, I'm at the mad-as-hell stage. Come on, people, we (as a culture) are raising children who want to kill. That's got to be addressed! And they can legally and easily get the guns to kill. That's got to be addressed!

jmopinion
 
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