Gun Control Debate #1

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Exactly. The kid bought the guns legally.

So....what do we do to prevent a purchase like this? Is it impossible to prevent?

jmo

Maybe we can't stop a legal purchase but perhaps 'red flag' laws can be expanded upon.

Few states let courts take guns from people deemed a threat

http://q13fox.com/2018/02/19/few-states-let-courts-take-guns-from-people-deemed-a-threat/amp/

SACRAMENTO, Calif. — The warnings around Nikolas Cruz seemed to flash like neon signs: expelled from school, fighting with classmates, a fascination with weapons and hurting animals, disturbing images and comments posted to social media, previous mental health treatment.

In Florida, that wasn’t enough for relatives, authorities or his schools to request a judicial order barring him from possessing guns.

Only five states have laws enabling family members, guardians or police to ask judges to temporarily strip gun rights from people who show warning signs of violence. Supporters of these measures, deemed “red flag laws” or gun-violence restraining orders, say they can save lives by stopping some shootings and suicides.
 
i'm outside the USA, I don't understand gun culture.
I understand gun hobby as watergirl explained it.
I don't understand gun addiction.
And even though outside the USA, I weep when your children die. i feel it and I know millions of non Americans feel it.
And we look at america and we say 'they're crazy'. Insane.
We are not by any means crime free.. Not by a long shot and our cops, who are also unarmed are far from perfect.. but seriously..there is ample evidence that there is much to fear.
if we had guns in Ireland it would be just as bad, because we're crazy too..
You're in it, we're outside, looking in and we cannot understand.
We do have a voice so it might be worth your time explaining.

I live alone, in a remote area and have been subjected to mindless attacks over the years.
I don't like it, it tears my heart out but i'm damned if I'm gonna kill anybody-extinguishing lives is not my right, no matter where I live. That's black and white.

I'm not religious but I do trust in the Divine.

Your children are dying, because you want to preserve your hobbies?
Life is precious.

I can put myself in the Florida killer's shoes.. I think I understand him and my heart breaks for for him.. he is so ill...
Much easier when it's ISIS- easier to get the ire up and apportion blame left right and centre.. and easier to hate too..
I'm not gonna convince anybody of anything.
Take yourselves outside of yourselves and look in , is all I ask.

Plenty of us live in countries without guns.
Mostly we manage to protect ourselves, mostly we manage to remain sane and grow in maturity as a result of all that befalls us.

Fear propaganda? why does the loss of a hobby bring fear?
Is it like banning golf clubs? Would that bring fear?

there's plenty of ways to protect livestock and crops without killing anything.

Good fencing , cctv and bangers for noise will send most beasts running..

A lack of good fencing or the wherewithal to build them is not a good reason to have guns.

Take heart kittythehare. Not all of us in the USA "cling to our guns" as Obama put it.
I have never felt the need for a gun but just about everyone I know has at least one or more and I respect their right to do as they please.
 
Exactly. The kid bought the guns legally.

So....what do we do to prevent a purchase like this? Is it impossible to prevent?

jmo

I have read suggestions of upping the age to guy this sort of weapon. Seems like a good plan. IMO
 
Exactly. The kid bought the guns legally.

So....what do we do to prevent a purchase like this? Is it impossible to prevent?

jmo
I don't understand enough about the culture, particularly among young people to answer, but the first thing that comes to mind is an age restriction.. but not sure that would help because it would meet the alcohol age restriction and then you add drink and new guns..
 
I have no understanding of gun culture.
I want all guns banned except for LE guns.
I would like to see people handing in their guns.. all of them.
Broward co Sheriff dept Rt a tweet from a guy on 17th who had decided to hand in his gun..
Admirable gesture.
Would love to see much more of this.
Those of you who are NRA supporters, have guns or want guns or even collect guns- WHY?
we don't have guns in my country . That's a good thing, if we had we would be seeing the same problems.
I won't be staying here to debate or argue, just to ask those simple questions.

-why do you believe you need a gun?
- what do you imagine your life would be like if you agreed to forfeit your gun permanently?

Guns are for killing.
The Founding Fathers are gone, and with them a helluva lot of vicious ideology.
Tear up the second amendment and burn it.

This is how I really feel, without having the guts to say it.

Invariably in any discussion about guns, someone will say, "Nobody wants to take all your guns away". I get a little twitch in my index finger and think about raising my hand and saying in a squeaky little voice, "I do".

But I never raise my hand. I find it too scary to be an American and do/say something like that.

The second amendment is just not dear to my heart.

I figure that even taking all guns away, there would still be plenty around. Of course, it would be pointed out how "well" prohibition worked, and how undesirable a black market is. And how there is a need to defend hearth and home. Myself, I prefer to arm myself with an illegal lawn dart.

However, since I do have eyes and ears and a a bit of brain power, I accept that the second amendment is not going anywhere, ever, nor are guns. What (all) I can hope for is control.

I'm glad someone from another country spoke up and laid it out here as I would have, given more guts. I find it hard to say this stuff as an American living in the land of John Wayne.

The situation we have got going on now in the U.S., with bodies being decimated in groups as people do average, everyday things like go to school, go to a concert, club, church, or restaurant, is truly getting to be a bit much. Beside losing our precious people, we look like bozos to the world. It's time to make changes which to some people would look drastic but to me would be only a start.

(I have put on a slicker and am ready for the tomatoes lol.)
 

Yeah, I got that. I meant he was checked out several times by social services. They found nothing amis, nor did the cops who came every time his mom called them..
Would the FBI have found anything different?
We're talking about an emotionally delayed development, autism, aDHD, depression, grief and loss..intermittent mood swings, balanced a lot of the time.. likeable.. innocent..easily led, bullied, lonely, frightened, paranoid, lovesick..
I doubt the FBI would have established much more than those facts..
 
White House: Trump supports move to strengthen gun background checks
by Alex Seitz-Wald and Hallie Jackson

WASHINGTON — The White House supports efforts to strengthen background checks for gun purchases in the wake of last week’s shooting at a high school in Parkland, Florida.

Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders said President Donald Trump is open to bipartisan legislation to shore up the background checks system, which is supposed to prevent people with severe mental illness and serious criminal records from purchasing firearms.

“The President spoke to Senator Cornyn on Friday about the bipartisan bill he and Sen. Murphy introduced to improve Federal Compliance with Criminal Background check Legislation. While discussions are ongoing and revisions are being considered, the President is supportive of efforts to improve the Federal background check system,” Sanders said in a statement...

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/wh...move-strengthen-gun-background-checks-n849341
 
The need for self defense will never go away. There are no laws that will protect you and evil will never be taken out of the equation.

Exactly. I refuse to become a Shirley Ledford and allow two men to mutilate my breasts, vagina and anus with pliers. They would be shot dead or disabled before they tried.
 
This is how I really feel, without having the guts to say it.

Invariably in any discussion about guns, someone will say, "Nobody wants to take all your guns away". I get a little twitch in my index finger and think about raising my hand and saying in a squeaky little voice, "I do".

But I never raise my hand. I find it too scary to be an American and do/say something like that.

The second amendment is just not dear to my heart.

I figure that even taking all guns away, there would still be plenty around. Of course, it would be pointed out how "well" prohibition worked, and how undesirable a black market is. And how there is a need to defend hearth and home. Myself, I prefer to arm myself with an illegal lawn dart.

However, since I do have eyes and ears and a a bit of brain power, I accept that the second amendment is not going anywhere, ever, nor are guns. What (all) I can hope for is control.

I'm glad someone from another country spoke up and laid it out here as I would have, given more guts. I find it hard to say this stuff as an American living in the land of John Wayne.

The situation we have got going on now in the U.S., with bodies being decimated in groups as people do average, everyday things like go to school, go to a concert, club, church, or restaurant, is truly getting to be a bit much. Beside losing our precious people, we look like bozos to the world. It's time to make changes which to some people would look drastic but to me would be only a start.

(I have put on a slicker and am ready for the tomatoes lol.)

No tomatoes from me. Less guns equal less killing in my mind. It seems simple enough to me. IMO
 
The English and Colonial Roots of the U.S. Bill of Rights
http://teachingamericanhistory.org/bor/roots-chart/

To understand the 2nd amendment issue one has to go back. Historical context is really important. This is an interactive of that history. The first 10 amendments passed first congress over 200 years ago. It guarantees our freedoms.

The 2nd amendment, our right to bear arms and a well regulated militia. It guarantees the individual right to protect ourselves, and the right to protect against the tyranny of government.

IMO- it is the oversimplification of gun control and gun violence issues and solutions that has turned this guaranteed right into a hyper-politicized party issue. It's much more complex than no guns, vs more guns.


Here’s What You Need To Know About The Weapons Of War Used In Mass Shootings

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/section/politics

"Mass shooters are well aware that assault-style rifles are easy to obtain and capable of causing enormous casualties." A short primer on the complex history of assault weapons - successes and failures in legislation. In so many ways that horse left the barn a long time ago. An assault weapon has become the individual defense as well. We saw this play out in the Texas church massacre.


The NRA Wasn't Always Against Gun Restrictions
https://www.npr.org/2017/10/10/556578593/the-nra-wasnt-always-against-gun-restrictions

"The NRA has anchored the opposition in every major gun-related debate since it altered its main aim from marksmanship to hard-edged political activism. That change came 40 years ago and was related to other shifts in political sentiment, including the departure of Southern rural conservatives from the Democratic Party. All these helped elect the first presidential candidate to ever be endorsed by the NRA, Ronald Reagan."

The love of money elects our politicians. The shift to politics in the NRA is recent history. And now, it is one of the three major lobby influences in our politics with its system of grades, contributions, and endorsements for its elected constituency supporting a billion dollar market.

---
The rather sinister underbelly is really about money. It is not about taking anyone's right to bear arms away. But what is the flip side? Forcing everyone to bear arms? No teacher I know is equipped or has the desire to shepherd our children with a firearm strapped to their body. No hunter I know shoots game with an AR-15. No church, or synagogue, or mosque I know can afford trained armed guards for their security.

Our world in America changed forever after 911. And I do believe this was a major factor in letting the assault weapon ban expire in 2004. Since then, culturally and politically we have accelerated to a precipice where our answers cannot be found in laying blame at "the other". --And yet blame is hammered into our psyches from the top of our leadership to the street carnage inflicted on our children.

The terror, the loss, the heartbreak expressed in the aftermath by our youth in Parkland Florida pulls the curtain back on our humanity. Who do we fail if we do not rise with them? Each mass murder is an unspeakable tragedy; Sandy Hook broke by heart, but Parkland Florida is soul crushing.
 
White House: Trump supports move to strengthen gun background checks
by Alex Seitz-Wald and Hallie Jackson

WASHINGTON — The White House supports efforts to strengthen background checks for gun purchases in the wake of last week’s shooting at a high school in Parkland, Florida.

Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders said President Donald Trump is open to bipartisan legislation to shore up the background checks system, which is supposed to prevent people with severe mental illness and serious criminal records from purchasing firearms.

“The President spoke to Senator Cornyn on Friday about the bipartisan bill he and Sen. Murphy introduced to improve Federal Compliance with Criminal Background check Legislation. While discussions are ongoing and revisions are being considered, the President is supportive of efforts to improve the Federal background check system,” Sanders said in a statement...

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/wh...move-strengthen-gun-background-checks-n849341
That's about as useful as a bandaid on a dam.
How long do you get to stay mentally sane?
What about all the guns that are out there already?
There's been a spate of reports of kids threatening to shoot up schools since Parkland..
 
Exactly. I refuse to become a Shirley Ledford and allow two men to mutilate my breasts, vagina and anus with pliers. They would be shot dead or disabled before they tried.

Stricter regulations would not prevent you have from having a gun to protect yourself.

But, whoa, that example was ugly.

jmo
 
Exactly. I refuse to become a Shirley Ledford and allow two men to mutilate my breasts, vagina and anus with pliers. They would be shot dead or disabled before they tried.
What the actual.... Umm... Where to start.... So those two men wouldn't have victimized that young lady if she'd been armed? This 18 year old young victim, who you seem to be blaming and saying she "allowed" that horror?!?! What, by not having a gun? So there is nothing between allowing oneself to be brutalized and always being armed? This post is just bizarre. This kind of extreme statement and sentiment helps no argument.
 
Four Truths About the Florida School Shooting

^ The New Yorker article isn't long and a fairly easy read. Worthwhile.
 
Stricter regulations would not prevent you have from having a gun to protect yourself.

But, whoa, that example was ugly.

jmo

Yep. What happened to her was very ugly. What happened to her, and many like her, is a big reason I'm a big proponent for self defense.

Somehow I don't think pepper spray is going to cut it with men aiming to mutilate and murder. JMO.
 
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