Gun Control Debate #3

[kimlynn]

But it won't.

We don't know unless we try. IMO

 

[flourish]

I think hunting is a foreign concept to some people. Where I come from, kids hunt. My son was hunting at age 11. Some teens even go hunting, frogging and fishing together without adult supervision. It's a hobby for young men that teaches safety and responsibility. An 18 year old is not too young for a gun in my opinion. So yes they can hardly wait to have their own guns.

Yes it's a very common family activity in my area, too. Hunting can not only teach children about the outdoor environment, but patience, observation skills, some basic survival, etc. I'm pretty sure my brothers received rifles for their 12th birthdays. I can't say they never used the guns for reasons other than hunting, unfortunately, as one used that same rifle to complete suicide, but that's not my point.

I think camping can teach many of those same skills, but hunting can also teach additional skills... Anatomy, conservation, animal scat and how to recognize and identify animal trails and markings and their freshness and directions (I guess that's a general camping skill, too, but maybe not as specific and in-depth). Animal habits and prey and natural enemies...


ETA girls can hunt, too! But my many sisters and I did not get rifles on our 12th birthdays.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

ABC News
Verified account
@ABC

NEW: Kroger's announces its Fred Meyer stores will no longer sell firearms and ammunition to customers under 21, joining Walmart and Dick's Sporting Goods in raising age restriction following Florida school shooting.

https://twitter.com/ABC/status/969219352863084544

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Most Florida voters favor assault-weapons ban, oppose guns in classrooms, polls say

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/article202656509.html

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

More than 200 co-sponsors of comprehensive background checks bill "is remarkable," House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi said at her weekly press conference.

http://www.rollcall.com/video/pelos...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

 

[DexterMorgan]

If they think there is a gun, they will try to find it.

Exactly. I agree.

 

[PrairieWind]

Would you like to answer any of my questions or explain why exactly a teacher would be more capable than a trained officer?

This wasn't directed at me, but I'll take a stab. In general a LE officer would be better, all things being equal. But, he/she has to first get to the scene, and then ascertain where the threat is, then get there, and identify friend from foe. A teacher is already at the scene, perhaps even saw the incident develop in the beginning, he/she knows who the students and teachers are, and who doesnt belong. If the shooter is a student, the teacher will likely know him and be aware there have been problems.

 

[bluesneakers]

Exactly. I agree.

Hey Dex! Long time no sleuth.

 

[flourish]

Hmm suicide and lack of impulse control and firearms...

In the United States, firearms, particularly handguns, are the most common means of suicide. Despite strong empirical evidence that restriction of access to firearms reduces suicides, access to firearms in the United States is generally subject to few restrictions.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3518361/

And from 2016:

In 2014, 42,773 Americans killed themselves according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Half did so with guns. That’s not only more than the number of Americans who were killed in mass shootings, it’s more than the number of people who were killed with guns in homicides and accidents combined.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/business/wonkblog/suicide-rates/

There are at least a dozen U.S. case–control studies in the peer-reviewed literature, all of which have found that a gun in the home is associated with an increased risk of suicide.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0805923

 

[RANCH]

This wasn't directed at me, but I'll take a stab. In general a LE officer would be better, all things being equal. But, he/she has to first get to the scene, and then ascertain where the threat is, then get there, and identify friend from foe. A teacher is already at the scene, perhaps even saw the incident develop in the beginning, he/she knows who the students and teachers are, and who doesnt belong. If the shooter is a student, the teacher will likely know him and be aware there have been problems.

But what about the 18% hit rate that trained police officers attain in gunfights according to Springrain?

Can a teacher exceed that level in a classroom environment? Are most LE gunfights in similar situations that a teacher would face so that the comparison is valid?

 

[bluesneakers]

Hmm suicide and lack of impulse control and firearms...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3518361/

And from 2016:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/business/wonkblog/suicide-rates/

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0805923

I don't think there's any reason to doubt more guns in more hands will lead to more suicides.

 

[RANCH]

Australia's Suicide Crisis Has Peaked To A Terrifying New Height

Australia's suicide rate is the highest it has been for at least ten years. In 2015, 3,027 people ended their own lives in Australia. That's 12.6 people in every 100,000.

That's more than eight people every single day.


One person every three hours.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/2...peaked-to-a-terrifying-new-height_a_21480647/

 

[bluesneakers]

Australia's Suicide Crisis Has Peaked To A Terrifying New Height

https://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/2...peaked-to-a-terrifying-new-height_a_21480647/

How does that compare to the USA?

eta:
USA is 13 per 100,000.
Australia is 12.6 per 100,000.

I wonder what it would be in Australia if they had easier access to guns? Or how low it could get in the USA if there were more restrictions?

Source:

U.S. Suicide Rate Surges to a 30-Year High

 

[RANCH]

How does that compare to the USA?

eta:
USA is 30 per 100,000.
Australia is 12.6 per 100,000.

I wonder what it would be in Australia if they had easier access to guns? Or how low it could get in the USA if there were more restrictions?

I don't know.

I would think that Australia's highly successful gun confiscation programs would cause suicides to drop to extremely low levels.

I wonder why that didn't happen.

 

[bluesneakers]

I don't know.

I would think that Australia's highly successful gun confiscation programs would cause suicides to drop to extremely low levels.

I wonder why that didn't happen.

Guns are not the only factor in suicide, but access to a gun increases the odds someone will complete suicide. That's why the suicide rate in America is so alarming. But there is still mental illness and addiction that need to be treated, poverty that needs to be addressed, injustice, etc. People attempt suicide for many different reasons, but not all of them succeed. A firearm just about guarantees they will.

Did you read this?

"We as a sector and community are failing our most vulnerable and we must do more and do better. This means starting a national conversation about how we can respond differently," Shmigel continued.

"While we're prescribing more medication for mental illness than ever before – including a doubling in the rate of antidepressant use since 2000 -- we are not doing enough to combat social factors that lead so many to choose death over living."

I'm not sure what sharing Australia's much lower suicide rate is supposed to do here. What's the point? What does it prove? How can it be used in an argument against restricting access to firearms?

eta:
Suicide: Risk and Protective Factors

Gun access tied to greater suicide, murder risk: study

 

[flourish]

*advertiser censored*study conducted 10 years after Port Arthur concluded: “Australia’s 1996 gun law reforms were followed by more than a decade free of fatal mass shootings, and accelerated declines in firearm deaths, particularly suicides.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ck-2nd-amendment-nevada-firearm-a7980671.html


And the link to the study with this snippet:

Conclusions:*Australia’s 1996 gun law reforms were followed by more than a decade free of fatal mass shootings, and accelerated declines in firearm deaths, particularly suicides. Total homicide rates followed the same pattern. Removing large numbers of rapid-firing firearms from civilians may be an effective way of reducing mass shootings, firearm homicides and firearm suicides.

http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/12/6/365

 

[bluesneakers]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ck-2nd-amendment-nevada-firearm-a7980671.html


And the link to the study with this snippet:



http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/12/6/365

Why is this so hard to understand?

Conclusions: Australia’s 1996 gun law reforms were followed by more than a decade free of fatal mass shootings, and accelerated declines in firearm deaths, particularly suicides. Total homicide rates followed the same pattern. Removing large numbers of rapid-firing firearms from civilians may be an effective way of reducing mass shootings, firearm homicides and firearm suicides.

 

[RANCH]

Guns are not the only factor in suicide, but access to a gun increases the odds someone will complete suicide. That's why the suicide rate in America is so alarming. But there is still mental illness and addiction that need to be treated, poverty that needs to be addressed, injustice, etc. People attempt suicide for many different reasons, but not all of them succeed. A firearm just about guarantees they will.

Did you read this?





I'm not sure what sharing Australia's much lower suicide rate is supposed to do here. What's the point? What does it prove? How can it be used in an argument against restricting access to firearms?

You made a comment that more guns in more hands will lead to more suicides so I brought a link showing that less guns in people hands in Australia due to their gun confiscation programs has not led to a significant reduction of suicides. JMO

 

[Alfie]

None of you are accounting on ricochets. My school was built with a brick and concrete walls. A nervous teacher, although trained, tries to take a shot at the shooter but ended up killing an innocent student or three because the bullet ricochets. <modsnip>

 

[bluesneakers]

You made a comment that more guns in more hands will lead to more suicides so I brought a link showing that less guns in people hands in Australia due to their gun confiscation programs has not led to a significant reduction of suicides. JMO

What were the reasons suicide increased in Australia? Do the same factors come into play in the USA?

And how does that disprove more guns (or easier access to guns) does NOT lead to more suicide?