Gun Control Debate #3

[ATasteOfHoney]

I don't not respect it. I've been immensely respectful about this issue throughout. But a lot of those issues are true the world over. The difference is that guns are tightly regulated in a lot of other comparable countries. Hence other countries having lower gun crime than the US. Drugs, an issue in the UK, Canada, Australia etc. Domestic violence ditto. Disaffected young people, mental health, a disparity between affluence and poverty. Again all things that people in comparable countries have to deal with.

The lack of adequate punishment, laws, illegal gun holding are all issues that come up in gun control. The system the US has for reducing gun crime, and making sure guns are used responsibly is obviously not working. But that is never going to change just by shouting "2nd amendment" whenever realistic solutions are suggested, which I have done multiple times during this discussion.

With all due respect, blef.....I posted an article that the USA is second only to Mexico in regards to after-tax wealth disparity in the world.

And no, I’ve seen you post some things that were offensive (to me) a while back about women in suburbia driving their SUV’s and such and I posted my feelings about it and why. You never responded but I’m cool with that.

I’ve even posted about how I have felt differently about gun ownership and various gun laws ** depending upon where you live** because perception is fluid and variable. For instance, if I took you this evening for a 15 minute ride around my neighborhood, you would see the incredible lifestyles of the rich and (literally) famous being only one railroad track away (literally) from where they made the first episode of “Cops”. I can assure you that this little car ride we would share would be embedded into your memory for life for its shock effect.

We know how realistic our daily threats and fears are. We live it every day. We know the criminals have the guns and they live off the grid. We know there’s a black market. We have been also seein crazed and angry males shooting up our schools too. We feel the red-tape preventing gun control/reform.

We know it. We feel it. We live it. We also know there’s a multi-faceted approach that **may** work. I don’t think we appreciate being told there’s just one simple or two simple solutions from those who don’t currently live in the States; today, now.

But heck, all just moo

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

The article you've linked to is over 10 years old, so not quite 'a few years ago'...and includes a broad range of crimes. I'm not delusional, I know here in the UK we have a lot of problems with crime. But this discussion is about gun control I thought? I commented on the thread with my thoughts which was not intended to offend or claim that I live in a safer country than yours or any other country. No country is without it's issues, some have fewer problems than others and vice versa.

I'm not offended and I hope I haven't offended you.

You brought up other countries and how the US needs to be fixed and maybe we should take a lesson from others. I was simply responding to that. I happen to think that guns in the right hands deters violence and the UK has a significant amount of violence. So it's all relevant to the gun debate. imo

 

[Blef]

With all due respect, blef.....I posted an article that the USA is second only to Mexico in regards to after-tax wealth disparity in the world.

And no, I’ve seen you post some things that were offensive a while back about women in suburbia driving their SUV’s and such and I posted my feelings about it and why. You never responded but I’m cool with that.

I’ve even posted about how I have felt differently about gun ownership and various gun laws ** depending upon where you live** because perception is fluid and variable. For instance, if I took you this evening for a 15 minute ride around my neighborhood, you would see the incredible lifestyles of the rich and (literally) famous being only one railroad track away (literally) from where they made the first episode of “Cops”. I can assure you that this little car ride we would share would be embedded into your memory for life for its shock effect.

We know how realistic our daily threats and fears are. We live it every day. We know the criminals have the guns and they live off the grid. We know there’s a black market. We have been also seein crazed and angry males shooting up our schools too. We feel the red-tape preventing gun control/reform.

We know it. We feel it. We live it. We also know there’s a multi-faceted approach that **may** work. I don’t think we appreciate being told there’s just one simple or two simple solutions from those who don’t currently live in the States; today, now.

But heck, all just moo

My comments about Soccer moms needing assault rifles in suburbia offended you? I don't see how. I asked why they needed them. Not one person came back with a reason why. I can stretch to a hunter needing a semi-auto rifle, but I don't understand why anyone in a suburb who never hunts would need one.

If I offended you I'm sorry but I've asked plenty of questions to those who oppose my view and get no response, something you yourself have done. I could also take you to various places in the UK and Canada where affluence and poverty live side by side. I grew up in an area where people who were immensely rich lived right next to people who struggled to pay for heat, light, water etc. It's not a US only problem.

The issue is gun control. Unless people can see that there is a huge problem with the legislation of who can own a gun then it will never be fixed.

I've never said it will be fixed by changing one or two things. It's a massive problem that needs massive change, and I would have thought that the input from someone who remembers the last mass shooting in the UK, the law changes made then, and how we've not had another mass shooting for 22 years would help. I didn't realise that my not living in the US meant I couldn't make an opinion.​

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

I didn't say a word about "gun prohibition" in my comment.

Blef did. I didn’t bring up “prohibition” either.

 

[Spellbound]

The article I linked was referring to violent offenses not spitting in the street.

From the link -

The total number of violent offences recorded compared to population is higher than any other country in Europe, as well as America, Canada, Australia and South Africa.

Violent offenses were higher than in the US. Maybe the potential for guns being used in self defense deters crimes here idk. Maybe we shoukd discuss tax rebates for legal gun owners.

You would need to know what the statistics cover for any report comparing countries. One thing to remember is the the UK consists of England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. the last is known for being a violent area. And US and uK have different defintions for what they consider “violent” crimes


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...-media-post-says-uk-has-far-higher-violent-c/
As Bier put it, "The FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports defines a ‘violent crime’ as one of four specific offenses: murder and non-negligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault." By contrast, "the British definition includes all ‘crimes against the person,’ including simple assaults, all robberies, and all ‘sexual offenses,’ as opposed to the FBI, which only counts aggravated assaults and ‘forcible rapes.’ "

 

[Blef]

I'm not offended and I hope I haven't offended you.

You brought up other countries and how the US needs to be fixed and maybe we should take a lesson from others. I was simply responding to that. I happen to think that guns in the right hands deters violence and the UK has a significant amount of violence. So it's all relevant to the gun debate. imo

Your article on violent crime in the UK was flawed and out of date. I pointed out why, and yes we have a problem with violence, no-where is exempt from that. But as I said earlier you are comparing apples and oranges.

 

[Blef]

Blef did. I didn’t bring up “prohibition” either.

Sorry? I have always said gun control isn't gun prohibition.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

My comments about Soccer moms needing assault rifles in suburbia offended you? I don't see how. I asked why they needed them. Not one person came back with a reason why. I can stretch to a hunter needing a semi-auto rifle, but I don't understand why anyone in a suburb who never hunts would need one.

If I offended you I'm sorry but I've asked plenty of questions to those who oppose my view and get no response, something you yourself have done. I could also take you to various places in the UK and Canada where affluence and poverty live side by side. I grew up in an area where people who were immensely rich lived right next to people who struggled to pay for heat, light, water etc. It's not a US only problem.

The issue is gun control. Unless people can see that there is a huge problem with the legislation of who can own a gun then it will never be fixed.

I've never said it will be fixed by changing one or two things. It's a massive problem that needs massive change, and I would have thought that the input from someone who remembers the last mass shooting in the UK, the law changes made then, and how we've not had another mass shooting for 22 years would help. I didn't realise that my not living in the US meant I couldn't make an opinion.​

Yes, your comment about soccer moms offended me and I replied back with the reasons why. No worries though.....

So if the remedy is only about gun control & the law abiding citizens that register their purchased guns.......then what do you do with the criminals that have illegal guns? What about the gun-running black market? What about those mentally deranged young men that go unreported after multiple public & documented threats? What about those “domestic partners” who control their significant other with threats (the remedy currently is the useless restraining order)?

Complicated......yes......

 

[Blef]

Yes, your comment about soccer moms offended me and I replied back with the reasons why. No worries though.....

So if the remedy is only about gun control & the law abiding citizens that register their purchased guns.......then what do you do with the criminals that have illegal guns? What about the gun-running black market? What about those mentally deranged young men that go unreported after multiple public & documented threats? What about those “domestic partners” who control their significant other with threats (the remedy currently is the useless restraining order)?

Complicated......yes......

I must have missed your comment then. How do you think other countries have brought in tighter gun control? Why can't the US implement similar initiatives? Why can't the US learn from other countries? I don't think anyone thinks this is something with a simple solution, but gun control has been so lax in the US that it's at this point now, where you have almost as many guns as people. It was allowed to get into that state over years, so it can't be fixed in two seconds. I'm encouraged by the young people especially, who are standing up and saying things need to change. Have your guns, but also have tight gun control. I don't know all the answers, but at least I'm making suggestions that could help (although most gun supporters are poo-pooing them because it might personally inconvenience them *moo, rather than seeing that it's for the greater good of society).

 

[bobcat]

How many bullets do people need? Do they need high capacity clips?

And everyone lives off of the govt, They use roads, I assume as well as the multitude of services govt provides.

I think what you might be missing is people target shoot a lot just for practice. Especially younger people who are just learning. So you think it's okay to tax ammunition to the point where younger people can't afford to practice? Ammunition is ALREADY very expensive. Making it even more expensive isn't going to help to encourage young people to get involved in the shooting sports and/or hunting. It also would not make one bit of difference in gun violence.

 

[Blef]

I think what you might be missing is people target shoot a lot just for practice. Especially younger people who are just learning. So you think it's okay to tax ammunition to the point where younger people can't afford to practice? Ammunition is ALREADY very expensive. Making it even more expensive isn't going to help to encourage young people to get involved in the shooting sports and/or hunting. It also would not make one bit of difference in gun violence.

That's a rather bold statement.

 

[human]

I think what you might be missing is people target shoot a lot just for practice. Especially younger people who are just learning. So you think it's okay to tax ammunition to the point where younger people can't afford to practice? Ammunition is ALREADY very expensive. Making it even more expensive isn't going to help to encourage young people to get involved in the shooting sports and/or hunting. It also would not make one bit of difference in gun violence.

Kids pay plenty for their iPhones or their parents do, anyway. They pay plenty for their name brand clothes, shoes, athletics, on and on.

Life is expensive. You can ‘t always get what you want. Insert music notes here. Skip the pic of Keith Richards

 

[human]

They shouldn't have to pay a sin tax whether they need 1 or 1000.

Sin tax? Are taxes on clothes and gas sin tax?

 

[human]

I'm not offended and I hope I haven't offended you.

You brought up other countries and how the US needs to be fixed and maybe we should take a lesson from others. I was simply responding to that. I happen to think that guns in the right hands deters violence and the UK has a significant amount of violence. So it's all relevant to the gun debate. imo

I wonder how many people have actually been or live in the UK that bring this up? I was there for three weeks and there were zero murders in all of England. London is a huge city with a population of poverty to extreme wealth and perhaps people from most nations on earth.

 

[bobcat]

I never said tax guns and ammo so that no one can afford it. I suggested taxing the hell out of it! Here in my state they have extra taxes on certain items. I think guns and ammo should be taxed high enough that a person would have to consider costs before buying.

As I've said before, ammunition is already taxed and is already expensive. No need to make it more costly and make it more difficult for young people to become involved in shooting and hunting. Making it more expensive just isn't the answer. Really it's unbelievable to me that anyone would even bring that up as a possible solution to the gun violence issue.

 

[bobcat]

That's a rather bold statement.

No it's not. Not at all. You really think Cruz would not have committed all those murders if his ammo had been more expensive?

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

I must have missed your comment then. How do you think other countries have brought in tighter gun control? Why can't the US implement similar initiatives? Why can't the US learn from other countries? I don't think anyone thinks this is something with a simple solution, but gun control has been so lax in the US that it's at this point now, where you have almost as many guns as people. It was allowed to get into that state over years, so it can't be fixed in two seconds. I'm encouraged by the young people especially, who are standing up and saying things need to change. Have your guns, but also have tight gun control. I don't know all the answers, but at least I'm making suggestions that could help (although most gun supporters are poo-pooing them because it might personally inconvenience them *moo, rather than seeing that it's for the greater good of society).

Thanks for understanding, blef.
Myself and a few other posters here have made numerous gun reform suggestions that are multi-faceted and broad based. They approach a wide variety of variables that require compromise from all sides to gain the most effectivity.

What I feel causes a shut down in communication is people that approach a complicated issue with an insultingly over-simplified solution, truth be told.

With too many illegal guns on the streets **(the horse has left the barn long ago, iykwim)** in the hands of criminals and mentally unstable, we need a broad-scope type of reform. Multi-faceted. Bi-partisan. Joint.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

Sin tax? Are taxes on clothes and gas sin tax?

Yes to first question and No to the second one.

Special consumption taxes on alcohol, tobacco products and sugary drinks all fall under the heading of a “sin tax.” We’re guessing that relatively few Americans think of drinking, smoking and consuming soda as really sinful, but these special taxes regulate behavior we find unhealthy or distasteful. Sin taxes are useful sources of revenue for state governments.

https://smartasset.com/taxes/what-is-a-sin-tax

 

[Blef]

No it's not. Not at all. You really think Cruz would not have committed all those murders if his ammo had been more expensive?

Along with other measures, yes I do. Not a solution on it's own, but part of a solution.

 

[bluesneakers]

Blef did. I didn’t bring up “prohibition” either.

You replied to a post from me, then said to Blef:

But blef......I was responding to a poster refencing **gun prohibition** (about guns in households). Just sayin’....

So who was the poster who referenced "gun prohibition" you were responding to, if not me or Blef?