Gun Control Debate #6

[human]

These "youth marches" for "the cause" are nothing new. It is history repeating itself again.

Sad that history has to repeat itself. What is wrong with older people? Luckily, I have youthful friends, but I see many older people who think they are special and pull the power card. Pathetic. I think they fear a loss of their influence and think they can stave off truth. Why do people get stuck in their narrow channels? Fear?

 

[human]

A potential school shooting was thwarted by someone reporting that student Timothy Felker had been making comments about shooting up the school

http://www.kentucky.com/news/local/crime/article203612284.html

"An anonymous tip to a school safety tipline took police to the door of a 18-year-old Paul Laurence Dunbar High School student, and since then he has been charged with a felony and police have taken a rifle and about 500 rounds of ammunition from his home, according to court documents.

....When police went to Felker’s home on Feb. 17 they learned he was out of town. Investigators interviewed his mother, who told them Felker had made threats before of “shooting up the school, but it was before he purchased the rifle,” according to court documents. "
---

In this case, his own MOTHER had heard him make threats about shooting up the school, and then he bought a rifle and she did nothing about it!!!

And we wonder how these school shootings happen.

Over and over again we read that parents knew their child had issues. But they are in denial. Parents are so invested in their children that they are not a good source of making the right observations.

I saw that in school sports. Parents thinking that their child was more special and was robbed of playing time. Or in academics. Thinking their child is more gifted.

It is difficult for parents to be objective.

 

[Blef]

Sad that history has to repeat itself. What is wrong with older people? Luckily, I have youthful friends, but I see many older people who think they are special and pull the power card. Pathetic. I think they fear a loss of their influence and think they can stave off truth. Why do people get stuck in their narrow channels? Fear?

I think what annoys me is the "it's nothing new" idea, like it has failed before. NO! Young people can and do make important societal changes, not just in law, but in attitude too. They rise up and demonstrate their opinion and that warms my heart. I am one of those who will still protest about causes I care about. I have taken my kids, purely as an informed choice on their part, and shown them that peaceful demonstration is an important tool in democracy, and they are active politically, even at a young age. I've spoken to them about issues that come up in the news etc and they have learned to question what those at the top say, in a respectful way, and form their own opinions.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

These "youth marches" for "the cause" are nothing new. It is history repeating itself again.

It's sad that following generations let the rights and values that their elders fought so hard for degrade to the point where their grandchildren and great-grandchildren have to fight to reclaim them.

MOO

 

[everybodhi]

I meant on this discussion. Websleuthers

More and more people are stating the obvious.

Karl Rove: Only Way To Stop The Violence Is To Repeal Second Amendment

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

I'll just leave this here.

In some Native beliefs, not every senior citizen Native is called an "elder." Elders are wise, thoughtful, teachers, advisers, leaders, modern traditionalists, and strive to understand and connect with younger generations to preserve history and nourish the tribe's future. They teach gratefulness, purpose, history, traditions, humanity, culture and reciprocation.

MOO

 

[flourish]

In the LDS church, those young, 18-21 year olds you may see walking or riding bikes around in their black slacks and white button down shirts are given the title, "Elder."

Sure surprised my husband the first time I said, "wattup, elders" to some passing missionaries. He's like, "babe why are you calling kids 'elders'?"

Lol

(I'm what's considered an "ex-mo," meaning I'm a former mormon, while Mr flourish is a "never-mo," which is self explanatory)

ETA just because I'm a nerd I must point out that all LDS women, regardless of age or assignment, are called, "sister," while the men have titles like the aforementioned "elder," "bishop," "president," etc. I mean MAYBE the Relief Society president but she's more likely to be referred to just as "sister."

 

[ohreally]

And they should understand that amendments should and can and have been amended for the good of society in general, or else the US would still have slavery for example

An Admendment was not changed to end slavery. The 13th Admendments was ratified to change the constitution not any of our 27 Admendments. The only Admendment ever abolished another admendment was when the 21st Admendment ended the 18th Admendment that ended prohibition.

 

[flourish]

An Admendment was not changed to end slavery. The 13th Admendments was ratified to change the constitution not any of our 27 Admendments. The only Admendment ever abolished another admendment was when the 21st Admendment ended the 18th Admendment that ended prohibition.

So an amendment has been abolished in US history. Thank you.

 

[Blef]

So an amendment has been abolished in US history. Thank you.

Exactamundo. Amendments are amendments to the original constitution, and as the original can be amended then amendments can be amended or repealed.

 

[ohreally]

So an amendment has been abolished in US history. Thank you.

Yes there has been. I find it interesting that the 18th admendment was put in place to take something away and just 13 years later it was abolished.
I also find it interesting also that there are two ways for an admendment to become law. All 27 of our admendments have been done the first way. It takes 2/3 of the house and Senate, to pass it through then it has to be sent to each state and 3/4 of the state have to apprve it. That's 37 of the 50 states. The other way is by 2/3 of the legislature requesting a constitutional convention and then 3/4 of the states need to vote for it.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

In your first two statements:
Slavery abolished? I don't think so. Maybe in the way it used to be against African Americans. But the general consensus is we are all "debt slaves" to a monetary system that is an external force outside of us that we all rely on. What is the Federal Reserve? It is a system of usury that keeps you indebted by creating debt out of nothing at all, and you pay the interest. Whoever controls the purse strings owns you.
And your second statement about the Vietnam War. The Vietnam War ended 9 mnths. after Nixon was impeached.
Has war ended?, NO. America is still at war but now in the Mid East, with threats also toward Russia & Nth. Korea. So what has really changed? We are probably on the brink of WW111. So here we go again.

Debt isn’t synonymous with actual slavery. I find it an offensive comparison. IMO and all that.

Your response is confusing to me. Are you saying civil protest is pointless and changes nothing?

Look at our labor laws. The 40-hour workweek. Child labor laws. ... One example.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Who is "most of them"? Are you referring to the people with guns?

Yes. There are numerous links throughout these threads showing as much. Most gun owners support reform. Most Americans do, in fact.

ETA:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/support-soars-for-stricter-gun-control-laws-poll-finds

Support soars for stricter gun control laws, poll finds

The poll, conducted by The Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research, found that nearly 7 in 10 adults now favor stricter gun control measures. That’s the strongest level of support since The Associated Press first asked the question five years ago. The new poll also found that nearly half of Americans do not expect elected officials to take action.

“It feels hopeless,” said 30-year-old Elizabeth Tageson-Bedwin, of Durham, North Carolina, a self-described Republican who teaches 7th grade English. “Considering recent events, gun control in this country needs to be stricter — and it can be without infringing on anyone’s rights.”

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Fox News poll: U.S. voters support gun control

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/mar/25/fox-news-poll-us-voters-support-gun-control/

The majority of registered voters said it’s more important to protect citizens from gun violence than it is to protect gun rights, according to a Fox News poll published Sunday.

 

[ohreally]

I would agree most want gun reform in the United States. Gun reform is a large umbrella and individuals have different ideas what gun reform to them. Some want to have more laws. Some want certain guns banned. Some want certain assecories for guns banned. Some want loopholes tightened. Some want being able to buy guns off the internet banned. Some want all guns banned. Some want bigger punishment for felons found with guns. Some just want existing laws enforced. IMO reform is different things to different people.

 

[flourish]

Debt isn’t synonymous with actual slavery. I find it an offensive comparison. IMO and all that.

Your response is confusing to me. Are you saying civil protest is pointless and changes nothing?

Look at our labor laws. The 40-hour workweek. Child labor laws. ... One example.

Oh wow. Like, I'm in crushing debt which I will never likely actually pay off in my lifetime (yay student loans), but really?? Comparing that to actual, literal slavery???

I can walk out my door right now without permission. I can choose my own name, choose with whom to bear children, I don't get beaten and raped, I get to vote and own property and I'm not someone else's property. . ... I'm really not understanding the comparison.

I agree it's really rather offensive to try to compare debt to slavery.

We don't even have debtor's prison anymore (thank goodness or I'd probably be there).

 

[Richard]

In every single instance involving mass shootings, the common link is a mentally disturbed individual.

Some of these people might have obtained a firearm legally, while many others did not. And in most cases they broke numerous "gun laws" prior to even pulling the trigger. It is not legal in most states for someone of school age to possess a handgun. And bringing the weapon within so many yards of a school is also against the law in most places. What mentally disturbed individual even cares about gun laws?

The focus of school violence prevention efforts should be on identifying persons with mental and emotional problems and getting them the counseling or medication they need to function and to properly behave. Lacking that, they need to be institutionalized for the protection of other students. Institutions could include various types of Special schools or even mental hospitals.

Expanding on this, society as a whole would benefit if more attention were focussed on mental health issues. Unfortunately, our criminal justice system is largely a revolving door at the court house, and most mental health issues are given only rudimentary lip service.

Money is available and already allocated to public schools for Special Education (which includes programs for emotionally disturbed students). Unfortunately, in many places this money is mismanaged and schools actually go out of their way to deny these programs to students in need of them. Parents of special needs children have to be proactive and fight very hard to get their kids into such programs, and it is always an up hill battle all the way. In the end, it often involves very expensive law suits. Losing only one of these law suits costs the school system enough money to have paid for a dozen counselors or special education teachers.

Sadly lacking is any responsible reporting by the news media on recent mass killings. Before any facts regarding who, how, what, etc. are known, they are already babeling about the need for gun control. How many news programs have actually reported on the shooters and their mental issues?

How many of the kids who marched on Washington would consider calling for a ban on violent video games? How many of them watch violent movies or TV shows which glorify murder and violence? And how about the Movie and TV celebs who make appearances to support gun control? They most certainly would be the last to suggest that Hollywood stop producing violent movies.

Making the debate about "gun control" rather than addressing the true problem of mental illness, is not productive. On one hand, you have people who know how to handle firearms properly, and who have a strong belief in the Constitutional Right to Keep and Bear Arms. On the other hand, you have people who know little or nothing about firearms who think that some kind of gun law or ban is the answer. No gun law has ever been successful in reducing violent crime.

There are, and have always been, anti-gun folks whose agenda it is to disarm the country, and they welcome any opportunity to further their agenda. Their arguments are always the same and they include such words as "common sense", "high capacity magazines", "assault rifles", and lately "gun safety". (Ironic since the NRA has been the leader in promoting gun safety for over a hundred years.) Second Amendment supporters know the tricks and arguments of the anti-gunners and will stand up to them without concession because of the long history of their attacks.

 

[flourish]

In every single instance involving mass shootings, the common link is a mentally disturbed individual.

Some of these people might have obtained a firearm legally, while many others did not. And in most cases they broke numerous "gun laws" prior to even pulling the trigger. It is not legal in most states for someone of school age to possess a handgun. And bringing the weapon within so many yards of a school is also against the law in most places. What mentally disturbed individual even cares about gun laws?

The focus of school violence prevention efforts should be on identifying persons with mental and emotional problems and getting them the counseling or medication they need to function and to properly behave. Lacking that, they need to be institutionalized for the protection of other students. Institutions could include various types of Special schools or even mental hospitals.

Expanding on this, society as a whole would benefit if more attention were focussed on mental health issues. Unfortunately, our criminal justice system is largely a revolving door at the court house, and most mental health issues are given only rudimentary lip service.

Money is available and already allocated to public schools for Special Education (which includes programs for emotionally disturbed students). Unfortunately, in many places this money is mismanaged and schools actually go out of their way to deny these programs to students in need of them. Parents of special needs children have to be proactive and fight very hard to get their kids into such programs, and it is always an up hill battle all the way. In the end, it often involves very expensive law suits. Losing only one of these law suits costs the school system enough money to have paid for a dozen counselors or special education teachers.

Sadly lacking is any responsible reporting by the news media on recent mass killings. Before any facts regarding who, how, what, etc. are known, they are already babeling about the need for gun control. How many news programs have actually reported on the shooters and their mental issues?

How many of the kids who marched on Washington would consider calling for a ban on violent video games? How many of them watch violent movies or TV shows which glorify murder and violence? And how about the Movie and TV celebs who make appearances to support gun control? They most certainly would be the last to suggest that Hollywood stop producing violent movies.

Making the debate about "gun control" rather than addressing the true problem of mental illness, is not productive. On one hand, you have people who know how to handle firearms properly, and who have a strong belief in the Constitutional Right to Keep and Bear Arms. On the other hand, you have people who know little or nothing about firearms who think that some kind of gun law or ban is the answer. No gun law has ever been successful in reducing violent crime.

There are, and have always been, anti-gun folks whose agenda it is to disarm the country, and they welcome any opportunity to further their agenda. Their arguments are always the same and they include such words as "common sense", "high capacity magazines", "assault rifles", and lately "gun safety". (Ironic since the NRA has been the leader in promoting gun safety for over a hundred years.) Second Amendment supporters know the tricks and arguments of the anti-gunners and will stand up to them without concession because of the long history of their attacks.

Could you please provide some links to support your assertions, such as schools get special education funding but mismanage it and go out of their way to not provide services?

To clarify, are you saying schools get enough funds to actually provide the needed services but just don't do it?

Also if you've ever worked with residential placements for children with special needs, particularly those of the psychological variety, how easy was it to get placement?

Are you an expert in children's mental health just curious?

 

[Blef]

In every single instance involving mass shootings, the common link is a mentally disturbed individual.

Some of these people might have obtained a firearm legally, while many others did not. And in most cases they broke numerous "gun laws" prior to even pulling the trigger. It is not legal in most states for someone of school age to possess a handgun. And bringing the weapon within so many yards of a school is also against the law in most places. What mentally disturbed individual even cares about gun laws?

The focus of school violence prevention efforts should be on identifying persons with mental and emotional problems and getting them the counseling or medication they need to function and to properly behave. Lacking that, they need to be institutionalized for the protection of other students. Institutions could include various types of Special schools or even mental hospitals.

Expanding on this, society as a whole would benefit if more attention were focussed on mental health issues. Unfortunately, our criminal justice system is largely a revolving door at the court house, and most mental health issues are given only rudimentary lip service.

Money is available and already allocated to public schools for Special Education (which includes programs for emotionally disturbed students). Unfortunately, in many places this money is mismanaged and schools actually go out of their way to deny these programs to students in need of them. Parents of special needs children have to be proactive and fight very hard to get their kids into such programs, and it is always an up hill battle all the way. In the end, it often involves very expensive law suits. Losing only one of these law suits costs the school system enough money to have paid for a dozen counselors or special education teachers.

Sadly lacking is any responsible reporting by the news media on recent mass killings. Before any facts regarding who, how, what, etc. are known, they are already babeling about the need for gun control. How many news programs have actually reported on the shooters and their mental issues?

How many of the kids who marched on Washington would consider calling for a ban on violent video games? How many of them watch violent movies or TV shows which glorify murder and violence? And how about the Movie and TV celebs who make appearances to support gun control? They most certainly would be the last to suggest that Hollywood stop producing violent movies.

Making the debate about "gun control" rather than addressing the true problem of mental illness, is not productive. On one hand, you have people who know how to handle firearms properly, and who have a strong belief in the Constitutional Right to Keep and Bear Arms. On the other hand, you have people who know little or nothing about firearms who think that some kind of gun law or ban is the answer. No gun law has ever been successful in reducing violent crime.

There are, and have always been, anti-gun folks whose agenda it is to disarm the country, and they welcome any opportunity to further their agenda. Their arguments are always the same and they include such words as "common sense", "high capacity magazines", "assault rifles", and lately "gun safety". (Ironic since the NRA has been the leader in promoting gun safety for over a hundred years.) Second Amendment supporters know the tricks and arguments of the anti-gunners and will stand up to them without concession because of the long history of their attacks.

I'd love to see your reference that says every single mass shooter is mentally disturbed. You know the one true common factor in mass shootings? Easy access to guns.

If the second amendment supporters, as you call them, really care about mental health in children, maybe they could lobby the NRA to funnel some of their vast profits made from the gun industry into funding a mass mental health care programme for school aged individuals, and include in that the therapy for the children and staff left with PTSD because a young person got hold of an improperly secured gun. Just my opinion tho.

 

[flourish]

Weird how I'm somehow not "allowed" to be both a supporter of the 2nd amendment AND gun control. Yet, I am!

I'm amazing! (Lol my autocorrect made that into "I'm absinthe" wth autocorrect???)